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  1. #1

    T19 Simcraft - Im worried

    What do you guys think ?


  2. #2
    Don't trust any sims right now man, that's all I have to say. There will be no accurate information until a week or so after raids through logs. Do not take this information to heart.

  3. #3
    If we assume that this information is correct then hunters are in a very solid place. Out of 24 specs there are 3-5 that are too powerful and 2-4 that are too weak. The rest fall into the 240-280k range. In reality that kind of DPS is absolutely going to made up for by fight mechanics, movement, skill, etc. Just looking at the variation in the sims its nuts. Look at arms and outlaw, this average is over like 10k iterations. THere's no such thing as 10k fights for a player. In reality this chart is nothing to worry about. Specially not seeing how melee-centric this expansion is. Hunters will be more than welcome and be highly competitive for sure. We've also not seen the first proper balance patch. Arms, for instance, were nerfed in the last hotfix. Some major changes can be expected to some of these specs around the time of raids.

  4. #4
    At some point can people stop acting like the sky is falling over Patchwerk sims? Especially when those sims only use 19 Artifact traits for Hunters. All the big guides are based around 20 traits, not 19. Skipping Legacy of the Windrunners is literally free DPS being left out. For comparison, Arms as the top spec gets 2 golden traits with just 19 traits invested. They get that extra DPS boost in the sim that Hunters miss out on until they hit 20 traits. It's not ideal that Hunters have to earn and spend an extra 30k AP, but it does make a difference.

    That sim also uses the wrong Relics. Good sims show MM benefits more from a +3 or +4 ilvl increase than it does from desirable bonus traits.

  5. #5
    Ion has already said there is a balance fix prepared to be released BEFORE the raids opens.

    And after the raid release when they gather enough data there will be another one so.

    Now ---> balance --> raids ----> balance.

    Dont be worried...or to be exact: dont be worried YET. No need for panic even if that sim could be trusted(and we cant).

  6. #6
    That RNG on Outlaw spec though... Every fight on WarcraftLogs will have an Outlaw at the top of it due to jammy dice buff streaks.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ForceN View Post
    Don't trust any sims right now man, that's all I have to say. There will be no accurate information until a week or so after raids through logs. Do not take this information to heart.
    i hear that a lot, but don't understand it. These are simulations, not logs compilation. The sims are as accurate as their math model is, thus could be wrong, but i fail to what will change a week or so after raid. The math model will be refine/change based on combat log? aren't combat log against dummy enough to understand proc and class mechanic? I understand dummy's health never drop, but it can be simulated.

  8. #8
    Ignore everything till the balance patch coming up.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    The sims are as accurate as their math model is,
    That's exactly the point, their profiles are probably not accurate to make comparisons, for example balance druid: they used a shit talent template and went with 1% haste, where haste is above int right now, so the simmed dps is completely useless and in no way representative of the actual output

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaxus View Post
    That's exactly the point, their profiles are probably not accurate to make comparisons, for example balance druid: they used a shit talent template and went with 1% haste, where haste is above int right now, so the simmed dps is completely useless and in no way representative of the actual output
    We're speaking about hunters here though. If the Hunter simulation is wrong, on what basis everyone saying MM is the raid spec ot the dps spec?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    We're speaking about hunters here though. If the Hunter simulation is wrong, on what basis everyone saying MM is the raid spec ot the dps spec?
    That's more of a toolkit thing than a damage thing, due to MM's very large area of passive cleave. It's always been only a slight edge though, BM's been competitive in sims the entire time.

  12. #12
    http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html
    Link to the sims here, if you actually look at it. It's simmed at 840ilvl with 19 traits in weapon, not tier 19 sims at all. gj everyone who believed it though.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipse View Post
    That's more of a toolkit thing than a damage thing, due to MM's very large area of passive cleave. It's always been only a slight edge though, BM's been competitive in sims the entire time.
    Toolkit?

    BM is fully mobile, while MM has to hard cast aim shot. So i anticipated that if there is a job requiring movement (like the char against blackhand), BM is more suited.

    MM have a easier time to switch to target, especially if they spawn far from the boss, I rage as GM when i spam my kill command and won't go off because my pet is running to the target, not yet in range. Advantage MM here.

    Both BM and MM have access to barrage, so the big difference is the combo sidewinders/marked shot vs multi shot/Beast Cleave. Beast cleave is better on sustained AOE, marked shot better on burst AOE.

    Intimidation on BM could provide certain use, MM does not have a single target stun on demand. But i haven't seen any interesting use so far.

  14. #14
    I think those patchwerk sims mean literally nothing.

    Turns out I am correct.

  15. #15
    LAWL demo in 4th!!

    That is simply not true.
    If you are progressing through content just to obtain gear, you are doing it wrong. You, in fact, are doing it exactly backwards.

    WOD. It has less of everything across the board, it's about half of an expansion, compared to past expansions.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    Toolkit?

    BM is fully mobile, while MM has to hard cast aim shot. So i anticipated that if there is a job requiring movement (like the char against blackhand), BM is more suited.

    MM have a easier time to switch to target, especially if they spawn far from the boss, I rage as GM when i spam my kill command and won't go off because my pet is running to the target, not yet in range. Advantage MM here.

    Both BM and MM have access to barrage, so the big difference is the combo sidewinders/marked shot vs multi shot/Beast Cleave. Beast cleave is better on sustained AOE, marked shot better on burst AOE.

    Intimidation on BM could provide certain use, MM does not have a single target stun on demand. But i haven't seen any interesting use so far.
    Must be nice, having an opinion but not knowing what you're talking about.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Must be nice, having an opinion but not knowing what you're talking about.

    First time poster for Hunter forms but have read so many of these threads it really does seem like if advice doesn't come from You, you get mad about it. Everything he said is correct in that he explained what was going on with each spec why dog on him for that?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cakefarts View Post
    First time poster for Hunter forms but have read so many of these threads it really does seem like if advice doesn't come from You, you get mad about it. Everything he said is correct in that he explained what was going on with each spec why dog on him for that?
    Because he isn't correct, and he doesn't know what he's talking about. Almost nothing he said is applicable for EN, for which MM has the vastly superior toolkit, not to mention superior performance.

    Talking in vague generalities about the two specs is pointless, and does not reflect the reality of this raid tier or environment. It's just more baseless justification for playing an inferior spec, with which this forum is already flooded.

    You want to play BM? Fine, whatever, do what you want. But don't try to hazily allude that it's comparable to MM because of vague references to its toolkit without ever stating concrete examples where its actually superior within the current raiding environment. It's typical vapid blathering devoid of any real applicable meaning that only serves to distract and misinform people that don't know how to actually assess the current content.

    The lashback against Azor's guides, advice, and understanding of the class just because people don't like him is nothing but hilarious and ridiculous ego-fueled denial. You don't like him? Fine. That doesn't make his information, which is actually rooted in the reality of the current content with specific examples pertaining to the fights and their mechanics, untrue or less valid.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    Toolkit?

    BM is fully mobile, while MM has to hard cast aim shot. So i anticipated that if there is a job requiring movement (like the char against blackhand), BM is more suited.
    I think everyone that played MM during cata atleast, can manage stuff like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    Both BM and MM have access to barrage, so the big difference is the combo sidewinders/marked shot vs multi shot/Beast Cleave. Beast cleave is better on sustained AOE, marked shot better on burst AOE.
    Not rly, MM barrage is a way stronger than bm one. BC isnt that strong if adds arent stacked.

  20. #20
    It's important to remember that while mm and bm aren't topping single target, but they are the most mobile ranged class and bm has great sustained AoE and MM has great burst AoE.

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