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  1. #481
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moshic View Post
    What's the stat prio for 4p? Simcraft says crit over mastery. I think not. I'm confused.
    C/p of my post from the official priest forums:

    Haste outweighs mastery by far, until you reach 30.1% haste, or to be more precise, these exact haste rating values:

    With dark intent | Without dark intent
    Rating Goblin | Rating Goblin
    2589 2437 | 2141 1993

    These add the 2nd extra tick on your Vamp Touch.

    After that is when haste and mastery become on par stats, meaning that on single target fights they yield the exact same results per rating.

    Which you should reforge for depends mostly on the fight mechanics, having fights with burst phases, like Hagara and Spine favor heavy mastery builds, but most other fights favor heavy haste builds. Morchok and Warmaster 'cause of multidotting, Yor'Sahj and Madness 'cause of AoE.

    Ultraxion is neutral 'cause of the thing mentioned above (both being on par on single target), but you should also favor haste here, just in case RNG doesn't serve you well, and you don't get to clip your AA/SF in-between the 2 times raid members get fading lights.
    As for crit, it is your most useless stat on most fights, and is never to be even compared with mastery.
    Last edited by veiledy0; 2012-06-20 at 03:38 PM.
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  2. #482
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    I'm curious. What's the difference between:

    MS, MS, Cancelaura MB
    and
    MS, MS, waiting for 3 orbs from SF, MB

    It seems to me the cast time and/or gcd would be longer than simply waiting

  3. #483
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    I'm curious. What's the difference between:

    MS, MS, Cancelaura MB
    Requires 3 global cooldowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    and
    MS, MS, waiting for 3 orbs from SF, MB
    Requires 4 global cooldowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    It seems to me the cast time and/or gcd would be longer than simply waiting
    The cast time of your Vampiric Touch, Mind Spike, Mind Blast and Flash Heal is always precisely the same as the duration of your GCD.
    Those are actually the spells you use to figure out how long your GCD is.

    The reasons why those spells have a cast time is to get better scaling with your spellpower (scaling formulas contain the cast time in their calculations), and to give your opponents in arena something to interrupt, so you can't just go jumping around, mashing instants, doting everyone, like warlocks do ATM 'cause their Soul Swap/Fel Flame. /shadowpriestcries.
    Last edited by veiledy0; 2012-06-20 at 03:53 PM.
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  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Moshic View Post
    What's the stat prio for 4p? Simcraft says crit over mastery. I think not. I'm confused.
    iirc Simcraft has some issue with modeling stat weights with the 4pc correctly. I think Kilee had to come up with a specialized cast list to do the testing he did with it and I can't remember at this point if Althor said they did or did not tweak the action list for the 4pc by default. Either way like veiledy0 said crit is not better in general than mastery.

    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    I'm curious. What's the difference between:

    MS, MS, Cancelaura MB
    and
    MS, MS, waiting for 3 orbs from SF, MB

    It seems to me the cast time and/or gcd would be longer than simply waiting
    Well the GCD gets used up in the cast time of MB after you cancelaura so you can immediately queue MS to start casting after you start to cast mb; whereas if you just twiddle your thumbs a minute you'll have to wait on the GCD before you cast MS.

  5. #485
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    I've been reading the cancelaura thing for a long time now, for months. We're on heroic madness and I'm no scrub... But this is the first time someone's ever actually explained it accurately in a way I can understand it. I never realized it the GCd was started on cast, not on spell land.

    EDIT: Is it also accurate that Shadowfiend + MS spam etc is bad during Heroism/BL?

    EDIT2:

    Start fight, assuming I dont have the opportunity to get orbs up prior.

    MF to 5xAA, AA, SF, MB, MS, MS, MS, /CA MB, MS, MS, MS, /CA MB, MS, (shadowfiend poofs) resume rotation?

    Mid fight, dots are up, and SF is approaching ready

    MF to 5xAA, MF to 3 orbs, AA, MB, SF, MS, MS, MS, MS, /CA MB, MS, MS, MS, /CA MB, MS, (shadowfiend poofs) resume rotation?
    or
    Just keep normal rotation (AA will be up naturally), and do the first (start fight rotation shown above) and not worry about orbs prior to SF?
    Last edited by chazus; 2012-06-20 at 06:06 PM.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Is it also accurate that Shadowfiend + MS spam etc is bad during Heroism/BL?
    It's good if you manage to activate the SF before Heroism/BL.

    Start fight, assuming I dont have the opportunity to get orbs up prior
    Fade
    prepot & precast Mind Spike
    ----- start ----
    Mind Flay x 2, clip both after 2 ticks
    => Mid fight sequence

    Mid fight, dots, stacks and orbs are up, SF is ready

    Mind Spike & Archangel
    Shadowfiend
    cancelaura Mind Melt & Mind Blast & Bottled Wishes (if you use)
    Mind Spike x 4
    Mind Flay (until Mind Blast ready & 3 orbs)
    Mind Blast (instant)
    Mind Spike x 3
    VT
    DP
    Mind Blast (instant)
    SW:P


    Spine
    spamable MS target macro
    MS
    MS & AA
    SF
    cancelaura Mind Melt & Mind Blast & Bottled Wishes
    4 x MS
    MF until 3 orbs and MB ready
    Instant MB
    3 x MS
    MF until MB ready
    Instant MB

    So all three MBs are affected by three orbs, AA and Bottled Wishes and migration to usual prio is faster.
    You don't waste possible orbs at the beginning and MB CD at the end.
    It's also better for DI, the server lag cancelaura problem and the difference between hittime of SF and my GCD.
    Last edited by Nianif; 2012-06-30 at 08:55 AM.

  7. #487
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nianif View Post
    It's good if you manage to activate the SF before Heroism/BL.
    No. It's bad either way, 'cause Bloodlust drops your Mind Spike casts to 0.9 secs, which is bellow GCD.
    When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears
    When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears
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  8. #488
    That is not true. If you look at the top parses for say Ultraxion you will see nearly everyone of those shadow priest is mind spike mind blasting even during the opening lust. Also, they aren't phasing out either.

  9. #489
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    With the missing 0.1 sec you would only cast MS without orbs and the additional orbs are worth doing it.

    But a cast sequence with fast migration to the usual prio is also better here.
    Last edited by Nianif; 2012-07-01 at 07:31 AM.

  10. #490
    Ideally, when shadow fiend and aa are up together, or you can manage to line them up you want to do it regardless of bloodlust. The burst dmg from it is amazing. The only times you don't want to do it, are if the cooldowns are too far apart (45 sec or more), or if you aren't going to be able to tunnel the entire rotation without having to move/do something else. I too was under the impression that lusted dots would scale better, but that just isn't the case.

  11. #491
    is normal cunning of the cruel comparable to normal will of unbinding? would it be more advantageous to use normal cunning of the cruel over the latter? (taking into account the ~~44% dmg increase from shadow power talents on the trinket's shadowbolt damage?).

    my priest is a multiple savior, but my damage is still not comparable to SP's with the legendary staff and heavy mastery builds, even though i have the heroic rathak and off-hand. Was running 3202 haste, but my mastery was very low, around barely 13 only, then i reforged to a suggested reforge build with well below 3202 but a bit more mastery. Atm reforged to 2285 haste, for the extra DP tick under DI.

    even tough, i read here, that it's just the play style of different people and mastery over haste would not matter (just specific fights), i have found it a bit different. Is it worth ganking my warlocks and ask them for DI, or should i just stick with 3202 haste, or should i go lover and believe askmrrobot and go around 14,5 mastery, but going well below 3202 cap?

  12. #492
    What are both of your trinkets? If you have will and cunning you should be running both of them.

  13. #493
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiroth View Post
    That is not true. If you look at the top parses for say Ultraxion you will see nearly everyone of those shadow priest is mind spike mind blasting even during the opening lust. Also, they aren't phasing out either.
    We're using it during the opening lust 'cause that's the only way to get to use it 3 times per fight. Any further delay would make that impossible.

    It does do more dmg than your non-orbed dots, but it's not ideal to use it then. The OP asked if it's bad using it during BL, and my answer that it is bad is correct, 'cause you get more DPS from using it outside of bloodlust, and using that bloodlust to strengthen your orbed DoTs.

    But on Ultraxion you don't get to start with an orb, etc. So it's usage depends on the fight. On Morchok for example, you don't use MF/AA from the start with bloodlust, but delay it until the boss splits up (yes, BL is still up, but doesn't matter), so you can keep dots on one and spike the other, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by netbeast View Post
    is normal cunning of the cruel comparable to normal will of unbinding? would it be more advantageous to use normal cunning of the cruel over the latter? (taking into account the ~~44% dmg increase from shadow power talents on the trinket's shadowbolt damage?).
    Yes, it is. But you should be using both on most fights outside Ultraxion.

    Quote Originally Posted by netbeast View Post
    my priest is a multiple savior, but my damage is still not comparable to SP's with the legendary staff and heavy mastery builds, even though i have the heroic rathak and off-hand. Was running 3202 haste, but my mastery was very low, around barely 13 only, then i reforged to a suggested reforge build with well below 3202 but a bit more mastery. Atm reforged to 2285 haste, for the extra DP tick under DI.

    even tough, i read here, that it's just the play style of different people and mastery over haste would not matter (just specific fights), i have found it a bit different. Is it worth ganking my warlocks and ask them for DI, or should i just stick with 3202 haste, or should i go lover and believe askmrrobot and go around 14,5 mastery, but going well below 3202 cap?
    First of all, DI haste isn't factored into the damage done by Imp. DP, so if you're gonna aim for a certain amount of haste rating, make it 2589.

    I've personally found the 3202 Haste to be just crap (outside Morchok fight), and not even close to a full mastery reforge after obtaining 30.1% haste.

    And if your guild has Savior warlocks who Dark Intent anyone rather than the shadow priest, your guild really needs better warlocks. ; )
    When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears
    When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears
    And I held your hand through all of these years

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    We're using it during the opening lust 'cause that's the only way to get to use it 3 times per fight. Any further delay would make that impossible.
    Your Ultraxion fights in this month last 4:59, 4:51 and once again 4:51 - a 3rd burst phase should be no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    'cause you get more DPS from using it outside of bloodlust, and using that bloodlust to strengthen your orbed DoTs
    So your advice is to wait with AA & shadowfiend 40 sec or additional until the DoTs, recasted at the end of BL, are finished?
    Even you manage to activate SF before and get the additional orbs? :/

    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    On Morchok for example, you don't use MF/AA from the start with bloodlust, but delay it until the boss splits up (yes, BL is still up, but doesn't matter), so you can keep dots on one and spike the other, etc.
    The only advantage is to have DP up on the second target, isn't it?

    If your raid delay BL a few sec until Dark Evangelism stacks up and you activate SF => more orbs, prepot & Lightweave Embroidery & Power Torrent are active, no movement needed, don't have to wait for random orbs to get ES up and you are earlier ready to burst again.

    Time between Mind Spikes (1 sec) is near the same as the time between SF hits (~1.04) during BL as long you manage to activate SF before. So the 0.1 sec between MS cast time and min. GCD doesn't hurt as I said before and nine additional orbs by itself means more damage than DP on the second target.


    Sorry but again: It's good if you manage to activate the SF before Heroism/BL.


    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    First of all, DI haste isn't factored into the damage done by Imp. DP, so if you're gonna aim for a certain amount of haste rating, make it 2589.
    .....
    And if your guild has Savior warlocks who Dark Intent anyone rather than the shadow priest, your guild really needs better warlocks. ; )
    You should ask the warlocks for DI & reforge to 2141 (goblin 1993).

    Dark Intent Ranking :
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...tent-%284-3%29
    http://howtopriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1202
    Last edited by Nianif; 2012-07-02 at 12:50 PM.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    We're using it during the opening lust 'cause that's the only way to get to use it 3 times per fight. Any further delay would make that impossible.

    It does do more dmg than your non-orbed dots, but it's not ideal to use it then. The OP asked if it's bad using it during BL, and my answer that it is bad is correct, 'cause you get more DPS from using it outside of bloodlust, and using that bloodlust to strengthen your orbed DoTs.

    But on Ultraxion you don't get to start with an orb, etc. So it's usage depends on the fight. On Morchok for example, you don't use MF/AA from the start with bloodlust, but delay it until the boss splits up (yes, BL is still up, but doesn't matter), so you can keep dots on one and spike the other, etc.
    Very true. However, waiting until after bloodlust depending on timing could end up being a DPS loss as well.

  16. #496
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    Sorry, what exactly of the text you have quoted is very true?

  17. #497
    The overall DPS gain from using ms/mb rotation outside of lust and dots during lust will be higher than using ms/mb during it. However, if you have ms/mb up during lust you probably should not wait to use it as you are just delaying and will end up losing dps. The longer you wait, the lower your dmg. You already have to wait for them to line up most of the time anyway.

    Most spriest I know go ahead and use it.

  18. #498
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    I would not wait with MS burst until BL but it makes sence to burst during the beginning of BL provided that SF is affected.
    If not it will be better to wait in most cases.
    Last edited by Nianif; 2012-07-02 at 02:51 PM.

  19. #499
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiroth View Post
    The overall DPS gain from using ms/mb rotation outside of lust and dots during lust will be higher than using ms/mb during it. However, if you have ms/mb up during lust you probably should not wait to use it as you are just delaying and will end up losing dps. The longer you wait, the lower your dmg. You already have to wait for them to line up most of the time anyway.

    Most spriest I know go ahead and use it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nianif View Post
    I would not wait with MS burst until BL but it makes sence to burst during the beginning of BL provided that SF is affected.
    If not it will be better to wait in most cases.
    Basically, you both just repeated what I've said:

    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    We're using it during the opening lust 'cause that's the only way to get to use it 3 times per fight. Any further delay would make that impossible.

    It does do more dmg than your non-orbed dots, but it's not ideal to use it then. The OP asked if it's bad using it during BL, and my answer that it is bad is correct, 'cause you get more DPS from using it outside of bloodlust, and using that bloodlust to strengthen your orbed DoTs.
    Volcanic Potion lasts 19 seconds, AA 18, Shadowfiend 15 secs. So you can get your entire AA/MS during the potion, and still clip your 3 dots into it. Also, I myself use HC Insignia for the Ultraxion fight, but I re-equip it before the pull to restart the ICD, so it doesn't proc during Mind Spikes, which would get my Mind Spike casts even lower, to around 0.7 and ruin the rotation even more, and hope it procs just before I start applying my dots.
    Last edited by veiledy0; 2012-07-02 at 04:40 PM.
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  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    Originally Posted by Nianif View Post
    It's good if you manage to activate the SF before Heroism/BL.
    No. It's bad either way, 'cause Bloodlust drops your Mind Spike casts to 0.9 secs, which is bellow GCD.
    hmm, sounds different for me. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    Volcanic Potion lasts 19 seconds.
    25 sec but doesn't matter

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