Defy the Odds in Torghast When Eternity's End Arrives

Originally Posted by Soisoisoi

I'm talking about everything else in the game. My point is that it's a surprise that this isn't and them mentioning it at all just adds to that. Why else would they mention it?

what does them stating it is available with no unlock and is not required have to do with timegating? why is this surprising its not timegated? and they didnt mention timegate

Originally Posted by Soisoisoi

Why else would they mention it?

Just to mention it? How else would they inform people about the new content if not by describing it? I understand where you are coming from but I think it is just over analyzing a simple bit of information about the new system and how it works.

Originally Posted by vizzle

I don't know how you guys can keep doing this, patch after patch, year after year. They don't even try to embellish the game anymore; it's just clear as day log-in motivators. WoW is really just a chore simulator for mounts and pets. What else is it, really?

A place where people can enjoy content with their friends. Dungeons, raids, pvp. Even just to chat with each other while doing the "chores". Wow has been shit for me since wod but I played till 9.1 because I had a reason to. I did a couple of nights a week with a core group of players and that was fun. By 9.1 they were all gone and now I play other games with most of them now.

I play Tbc ATM with a new group and I don't really get a long with them that well but it sure is fun spanking them on the meters and that's why I still play Tbc.

You can have your own opinion about wow but let's not pretend you're opinion is worth anything.

You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Goat7

the game has become dogshit. not hatin, just facts.

dont believe me? see sub numbers lost 3 million Q4 2021, thats about 30k subs PER DAY.

Dont worry tho, we got new store mounts, WoW mobile comin, and now we dont have to have choreghast time gated so i can get another legendary that everyone else has.

Good news is Q1 2022 will see a rise in subs. Is wow a fucking good game all of a sudden? Just like every other patch since about Cata there are new store mounts, pets, a mobile app, and gear that everyone else has?

The fact is you are just hatin and the game is not objectively dogshit. That's a fact. I don't play retail anymore since 9.1 and I don't think I will come back because I don't find it fun anymore. I'm not bitter. I'm just more selective in what I play and I'm not delusional enough to think wow will move back to a place where all of my (wow) friends come back and we can raid together.

Originally Posted by rhorle

Yes? If all the people that love to hate on the game simply stopped most fan sites would be 1,000 times better over night.

You'll have no one to answer your tantrums anymore, though.

Originally Posted by fazaim

Yes, should I not be egocentrical in what I pay for? So when the day comes I can't stand the game anymore, do you suggest I continue paying subscription to keep the game healthy because I know a few hundred thousands are still having some kind of fun? Looks like you just shuvved a word that you like in there.

It's not the way I alone want it to go, I more often than not read others' arguments about the game because I can't always find the words for it myself. That's a big part of forums, sometimes things feel off and another person words your sentiments perfectly. Then I try to breath air into their fire to make it seen. Listen to what you're saying, according to you we're supposed to accept our feedback being overlooked. Do you not see the trends these days? These aren't opinions of individuals, it's a huge part of the playerbase trending to words certain subjects. It's never ever something awkwardly new or out of the blue.

Any person who twists another's arguments are standing on weak ground. You're not quoting me, you're trying to make a point which fails to get through. Read again how I've written that sentence. I've not been on any beta, but I always pay close attention to the feedback. For years it's been ignored, most recently the azerite system, azerite gear, the covenants, the conduits and choregast were already given very sufficient feedback before it came out in a broken state. Then we basically had to wait a year for any of them to be implemented. We should've been where we are today on launch and then improved upon it.

Now, get this... Classic and TBC classic brought nothing new, the nostalgia isn't there anymore and people still play it. We have servers live which provides direct comparison to retail. Shadowlands won't ever be able to get its own "classic" servers. Giving feedback in a frustrated manner isn't hating and you can't even there's little non-toxic feedback. Go to official forums. Let people give feedback that gets heard, we want the game to get better. You know what's toxic? You and your way of arguing, you contribute absolutely nothing but a small back and forth. So if I do you the way you done me "I have an addiction and am afraid I'll be alone in this game, please don't spread truth about the state of the game so I don't have to spend more time looking for pugs." Mr. CNN, soon there will be x-faction play and instead of the usual 5 groups you see queued up, so you'll be able to find at least 7.

I suggest you either play the game if you like it or quit if you don't. Complaining that it's not what YOU want and that Blizzard is somehow wrong for not taking YOUR feeback is yes, egocentric.

You're also making a core mistake in logic. Choosing not to design the game around your feedback is not the same as not seeing it. You calling something broken because it's not how you like it does not make it broken.

Your last paragraph you just double down on the "if they don't do it the way my feedback says to they're ignoring it" followed by some rant about queues that makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Tiev

Honestly, I tend to agree that it's hard to not put emotions (usually negative) into these conversations. I tend to simply ignore people when they start being snarky. I'm glad I'm not paid to look into feedback and separate the actual information from the toxic emotions behind them, but developers must do that if they want to understand how to interpret their data properly. I know because I am one, of a completely different product, but still, if we don't look at feedback from users to try and understand the temperature of the userbase and measure it against our own metrics, we can have a completely different idea of product's acceptance and we're probably not going to be able to respond to it fast enough.

We have a team that does that, actually, and trust me, they have to deal with things just as toxic. Without reading them though and taking them into account, we're just blind and unable to change course if a change is needed.

You're making the same mistake as the guy I'm quoting. Because you don't see the game being designed around feedback you've sent in or you've seen posted on the forums does not mean that it's being not being seen or being ignored.

Look at his Torghast post. "We told them it was broken in beta and they didn't listen and it's taken them half the xpac to fix it." Or maybe it could be "How it was at launch was how they wanted it to be and they've slowly made changes as their vision of it has changed in hand with changing feedback from players." Nah. That'd be too reasonable. Better to just say they didn't bother reading the feedback, deliberately launched a crap feature, then rushed to apply the feedback they ignored when they saw us rabble against said crab, amirite? /s

Do you see the difference?

Originally Posted by cparle87

I suggest you either play the game if you like it or quit if you don't. Complaining that it's not what YOU want and that Blizzard is somehow wrong for not taking YOUR feeback is yes, egocentric.
"How it was at launch was how they wanted it to be and they've slowly made changes as their vision of it has changed in hand with changing feedback from players." Nah. That'd be too reasonable. Better to just say they didn't bother reading the feedback, deliberately launched a crap feature, then rushed to apply the feedback they ignored when they saw us rabble against said crab, amirite? /s

Do you see the difference?

Poor guy, you don't get much, do you? It's a game many have played up to 18 years, going through the ups and downs of this game. My feedback as much as the next guy often consists of the same sentiments and should be of value for them. If you act like you talk, then you're (in their eyes) a less valuable player than us in that we stay through it all, all the while giving feedback to better their product, while you'd quit as soon as it doesn't please you. You're static in an ever-changing game.

The developers are incredibly lucky to have feedback from players with +15 years experience. Then, when it becomes the norm for developers to not listen to feedback before a feature launches to then 6-8 months implement it in a .5 patch, naturally it results in frustrated players. Frustrated feedback doesn't mean it's all toxic. What don't you get yet?

I don't know the fuck you're on about, Torghast being how they wanted at launch hahah. Go to church if you wanna believe random stuff.

Originally Posted by cparle87

You're making the same mistake as the guy I'm quoting. Because you don't see the game being designed around feedback you've sent in or you've seen posted on the forums does not mean that it's being not being seen or being ignored.


Do you see the difference?

Sorry, where are you seeing that I'm saying they are or are not taking my personal feedback into consideration?

I'm saying two things:

1- Feedback is very important for a company, regardless of toxicity.
2 - They have lost a very substantial part of their playerbase to another MMO. That's unheard of since WoW became the king of MMOs even in between long patch delays and end of expansions. They are no longer number 1.

Their product losing that many users can be explained either by people getting tired of a formula and moving on to newer and different things or that another product is doing their formula better for that substantial portion of the playerbase. Or a mix of both.

However, the MMO they're losing their playerbase to is not so different from the basic formula of WoW. It stands to reason then that they've either not been listening to feedback or have been brushing negative feedback off as "haters gonna hate". That being the case, it's just logical to me that they would be losing their playerbase to a worthy competition that makes decisions based on the feedback they get from their players.

It's been a LOT of negative feedback as you put it, but there's a reason for that and it's not *usually* just "people like to hate".

From what I played of it... it was alright but it will be very difficult for a lot of classes to solo from tuning alone once you hit 3 bosses. It isnt terrible but it really feels like a gear check more then anything else from ptr.

Originally Posted by FelPlague

what does them stating it is available with no unlock and is not required have to do with timegating? why is this surprising its not timegated? and they didnt mention timegate

You’re misunderstanding the other person. They’re basically stating that they are so pessimistic that they believe that it has come down to Blizzard having to state something isn’t timegated to reassure players because they have timegated things in the past.

Originally Posted by Eapoe

You’re misunderstanding the other person. They’re basically stating that they are so pessimistic that they believe that it has come down to Blizzard having to state something isn’t timegated to reassure players because they have timegated things in the past.

Sadly this is right on the money. At this point most of the community looks at anything other then raids and dungeons with distain with how often blizzard has fucked up in the past... fuck when was mage tower made? 4 years of failed ideas?

Originally Posted by Eapoe

You’re misunderstanding the other person. They’re basically stating that they are so pessimistic that they believe that it has come down to Blizzard having to state something isn’t timegated to reassure players because they have timegated things in the past.

except again, they arnt saying it isnt timegated... they didnt bring up timegate, they literally are just saying it is optional... no where do they mention timegates...

Originally Posted by fazaim

Poor guy, you don't get much, do you? It's a game many have played up to 18 years, going through the ups and downs of this game. My feedback as much as the next guy often consists of the same sentiments and should be of value for them. If you act like you talk, then you're (in their eyes) a less valuable player than us in that we stay through it all, all the while giving feedback to better their product, while you'd quit as soon as it doesn't please you. You're static in an ever-changing game.

The developers are incredibly lucky to have feedback from players with +15 years experience. Then, when it becomes the norm for developers to not listen to feedback before a feature launches to then 6-8 months implement it in a .5 patch, naturally it results in frustrated players. Frustrated feedback doesn't mean it's all toxic. What don't you get yet?

I don't know the fuck you're on about, Torghast being how they wanted at launch hahah. Go to church if you wanna believe random stuff.

Thank you for doubling down on my point. "My feedback is valuable and should be listened to, if you disagree with me you're wrong and if Blizzard doesn't suit the game to me they're wrong."

As for the Torghast bit, it's quite simple. Torghast at launch is how Blizzard wanted it to be then. Torghast now is how Blizzard wants it to be now. Any changes that happen from point A to point B is because what Blizzard wanted it to be changed. Through a combination of feedback and their own observations with how the systems worked in a live environment.

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Originally Posted by Tiev

Sorry, where are you seeing that I'm saying they are or are not taking my personal feedback into consideration?

I'm saying two things:

1- Feedback is very important for a company, regardless of toxicity.
2 - They have lost a very substantial part of their playerbase to another MMO. That's unheard of since WoW became the king of MMOs even in between long patch delays and end of expansions. They are no longer number 1.

Their product losing that many users can be explained either by people getting tired of a formula and moving on to newer and different things or that another product is doing their formula better for that substantial portion of the playerbase. Or a mix of both.

However, the MMO they're losing their playerbase to is not so different from the basic formula of WoW. It stands to reason then that they've either not been listening to feedback or have been brushing negative feedback off as "haters gonna hate". That being the case, it's just logical to me that they would be losing their playerbase to a worthy competition that makes decisions based on the feedback they get from their players.

It's been a LOT of negative feedback as you put it, but there's a reason for that and it's not *usually* just "people like to hate".

1. You must have a different idea of "toxic" than I do. Screaming and cussing at Blizzard about how bad they are and how everything sucks without providing what's, why's, and suggestions for fixes should not be graced with the term feedback. It should be thrown in the garbage where it belongs.

2. "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens. Please don't lower yourself to making assertions you cannot prove. You're making a circular argument: The game is failing (you have no evidence of this) because they're ignoring feedback they don't like (again you have no evidence of this) and that is why they're losing customers to other evidence (you still have no evidence of this).

Originally Posted by cparle87

Thank you for doubling down on my point. "My feedback is valuable and should be listened to, if you disagree with me you're wrong and if Blizzard doesn't suit the game to me they're wrong."

Are you putting your misinterpretations of what I said in quotation marks... Is it for a lack of response you make up imaginary meanings of my arguments and shamelessly re-write them on display for everyone? It's like you've recently read, but misinterpreted, a whole book about reasoning and feel compelled to apply your newly acquired knowledge to the discussion.

Again, Thorgast is no where near how they wanted it to be. They wanted it to be, at the very least, a feature liked by the community however it's turned out to be the single most hated feature in WoW's long run.

About your responses to the other guy: What evidence do you need? In july last year, external and in-game progress trackers estimated an active retail playerbase between 1.2-2 million. Numbers this game hasn't seen since early release. The most popular cities are often closer to dead than lively on the biggest servers. LFG during daytime is to forget. There have been scandals which lead to a mass exodus this expansion, don't you forget. And the biggest proof of all, they've suddenly been giving in to all feedback to reel players back in. You can sit there and dismiss everything except their QR if you want, but it would only be closing your eyes.

Originally Posted by fazaim

Are you putting your misinterpretations of what I said in quotation marks... Is it for a lack of response you make up imaginary meanings of my arguments and shamelessly re-write them on display for everyone? It's like you've recently read, but misinterpreted, a whole book about reasoning and feel compelled to apply your newly acquired knowledge to the discussion.

Again, Thorgast is no where near how they wanted it to be. They wanted it to be, at the very least, a feature liked by the community however it's turned out to be the single most hated feature in WoW's long run.

About your responses to the other guy: What evidence do you need? In july last year, external and in-game progress trackers estimated an active retail playerbase between 1.2-2 million. Numbers this game hasn't seen since early release. The most popular cities are often closer to dead than lively on the biggest servers. LFG during daytime is to forget. There have been scandals which lead to a mass exodus this expansion, don't you forget. And the biggest proof of all, they've suddenly been giving in to all feedback to reel players back in. You can sit there and dismiss everything except their QR if you want, but it would only be closing your eyes.

There's so many logical fallacies here I hardly know where to begin. The game is always how Blizzard wants it to be and Blizzard obviously wants it to be good because it's a product they're trying to sell. You then come up with a claim that it's obviously not because it's "the most hated feature in WoW." Wow. Using your own opinions as evidence to support an argument that neither of us have evidence to back up. Then followed by even more anecdotes. Pro tip. When you make an argument, it's your job to back it up with FACTS. And the fact is neither of us know Blizzard's process or the current game activity. So the argument is dishonest to begin with because all we have is theories.

And you never even bothered to address my point. Which was you somehow conflating them not designing the game according to feedback you and visible forumgoers turned in with not seeing it or deliberately ignoring it.

Originally Posted by cparle87

There's so many logical fallacies here I hardly know where to begin. The game is always how Blizzard wants it to be and Blizzard obviously wants it to be good because it's a product they're trying to sell. You then come up with a claim that it's obviously not because it's "the most hated feature in WoW." Wow. Using your own opinions as evidence to support an argument that neither of us have evidence to back up. Then followed by even more anecdotes. Pro tip. When you make an argument, it's your job to back it up with FACTS. And the fact is neither of us know Blizzard's process or the current game activity. So the argument is dishonest to begin with because all we have is theories.

And you never even bothered to address my point. Which was you somehow conflating them not designing the game according to feedback you and visible forumgoers turned in with not seeing it or deliberately ignoring it.

Depends who you label as Blizzard then. When there's friction between developers and leadership you can't say "the game is always how Blizzard wants it to be."

Yes, I'm not gonna address more with you as you've shown you're shamelessly willing to twist and re-write my arguments on the level of Perez Hilton or TMZ. Your point is based on your misinterpretation.

Originally Posted by vizzle

You'll have no one to answer your tantrums anymore, though.

For a person that only claims to check mmo-champion for 5-min breaks from work you sure do hold on to grudges and toxicity

Originally Posted by rhorle

For a person that only claims to check mmo-champion for 5-min breaks from work you sure do hold on to grudges and toxicity

That's funny because I had the same thoughts about you. You're the one singling out my posts passive aggressively, lmao. Must be hard being so fragile.

Originally Posted by vizzle

That's funny because I had the same thoughts about you. You're the one singling out my posts passive aggressively, lmao. Must be hard being so fragile.

Is responding back in a conversation now considered singling out? You are the one that keeps slinging insults. At least own up to it instead of trying to blame anyone but yourself. But you do prove the point about people hanging on that spread toxicity when they are better off just letting go and moving on.

Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle

Anyone else completely sick of Choreghast? And we're gonna have to do it over and over again for a new legendary? What a drag

I personally enjoy torghast. I do however wish they would attempt to keep it fresh. New levels quarterly even would go along way, as well as new traps / powers. But I do think they should have left the player power out of it and made it for cosmetic rewards, insignificant achievements/ mounts, that sort of thing.