Changes & Experiments to Raid Rewards in Dragonflight Season 1
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Hey everyone! We wanted to get out a sort of primer ahead of the Raid Testing tomorrow to provide context for the sorts of changes you will (and won’t) see as you step into Dragonflight’s first raid, Vault of the Incarnates.

Before diving into what’s different - this post is going to be entirely about the Raid. We’ll have other information before long available on what’s going on with other endgame activities (like Mythic+) at a later date, so we won’t be making any mention of them here just to stay focused on the topic at hand.
Without further ado, here’s what’s in for tomorrow:

Group Loot:
  • While inside Vault of the Incarnates, Group Loot will be the only method of loot distribution. There is no option to select for yourself or your group to return to Personal Loot.
  • Some items, like professions reagents may still use Personal Loot where appropriate.
  • Need & Greed UI will return, and we’ll be monitoring feedback to make the rules around when and how players can roll on items be as intuitive as possible.

Loot Trading
  • While inside a raid, all item level restrictions placed on trading between members of that group are removed entirely. This means that even small item level increases that aren’t upgrades (as is often the case with rings and necklaces, which are budgeted high in secondary stats) won’t be locked to a player even in the case that they roll and win that item.

Item Level Tiering
  • There now exists a 3rd item level tier at which items may drop, up from 2.
  • 389 is the base item level for Normal difficulty and will drop from Eranog, Primal Council, Sennarth, and Terros.
  • 395 is a new intermediate tier (was previously final bosses) that exists now for Wing Bosses - Dathea, Ascended and Kurog Grimtotem.
  • 398 is reserved for Final Bosses - Broodkeeper Diurna and Raszageth, the Storm-Eater
  • These item level increases still stay within the +13 band for each ‘tier’ of difficulty - meaning that Heroic Base would start at item level 402, just +4 after them.

For a long while we’ve observed that while players love the challenge of powerful wing bosses and ‘mid-tier walls’ like Halondrus, Sludgefist, and Painsmith Raznal - it didn’t make much sense when overcoming those involved challenges rewarded you with the same gear as you got from defeating a Shriekwing, or similar first boss. Our hope is that by introducing new tiers of raid rewards, progressing through Vault of the Incarnates (and future raids) will feel more meaningful as you master the difficult encounters within.

Unique Drops
Additionally, we’re experimenting a number of bosses that possess one item that intentionally drops at a higher item level - usually +6 or +7 from that boss’s normal table.

To be clear: this isn’t titanforging. It will be the same item every time, and will be very slightly rarer to compensate (and pending some new tech, we’ll have the ability to note this in the dungeon journal itself). These can be unique appearances, items with special bonus effects, or a powerful trinket that many people may seek after.

We have a few things we’re hoping to accomplish with this:

  • Retain some excitement from early bosses that groups typically master very quickly and no longer become challenging by spicing up their loot tables
  • Give more long-term goals for difficult encounters
  • Make a larger push towards having Item Level accurately reflect the power of a particular item.

While we added many strong effects to weapons in Shadowlands, it wasn’t easily communicated how good an effect actually was - for instance Edge of Night (the sylvanas daggers) were clearly much stronger than their item level indicated, but they still appeared the same as the rest of her loot table. Our hope is that by being a bit more flexible with item level, we can give ourselves better tools for tuning these effects appropriately and in a way that makes sense to all players intuitively.
For the moment it’s intended that not all 8 bosses posses one, but that’s something that could change in the future. Current examples of unique drops are:

  • A pair of special rings from Eranog and Diurna
  • An ‘Omni Trinket’ (Str/Agi/Int) from the Primal Council that gets stronger with more copies
  • A special bow from the Storm Incarnate herself, Raszageth

That ends the list of things that are exist and are implemented (though tuning for trinkets and special effects are still very work-in-progress). That said, we’d also like to share some plans that aren’t implemented. We’re interested in trying this out for a future beta build and getting your feedback on how it feels.

Bind-on-Equip items:
  • Regular non-boss enemies within raids will no longer have a chance to drop Bind on Equip Epic items. Instead, ‘Lieutenant’ enemies - named mini-bosses throughout the raid - will have chances to drop them instead. These would work like LT’s do in current WoW, where you’re only eligible to receive loot from them once per week, per difficulty.
  • BoEs would become scaled with group size like regular bosses do. This would guarantee a set number of BoEs each raid per group, assuming a full clear of the instance.
  • Lastly, we’d be placing more important items into the BoE pool. This could be anything from weapons to higher item-level pieces to make them more worthwhile to raiders.

The goal of these changes are to reimagining BoEs by making the raid environment itself a sort of ‘9th boss’, with a guaranteed amount of extra loot to reward progressing deeper into the raid or efficient full clears without the need to kill every single bat or Mawsworn off in a corner of the battlefield to get your value. Additionally, this as an opportunity to create clear and understandable rules about how BoEs work, and support them as a reliable source of gear players want, rather than feel like an afterthought.

That’s all for now - please feel free to ask questions and provide feedback both on this post, and as some of you dive into Raid Testing over the next week or so and we’ll respond and clarify as much as we can. Thanks for reading, and enjoy the raid!
This article was originally published in forum thread: Changes & Experiments to Raid Rewards in Dragonflight Season 1 started by Stoy View original post
Comments 108 Comments
  1. Gasparde's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Already happened with PL. Got an item you don't need? Sell it for gold or tokens. I remember Ra-Den trinkets in Ny'alotha. Happened many times exactly like that.

    There is absolutely nothing suggesting that you can roll Need on something you couldn't otherwise just have gotten from PL. Effectively, PL is just everyone rolling Need anyway. Now you can get people who pass.
    There's a difference between 1 guy luckily getting his 1 PL item from a boss and every plate wearer rolling need on every plate item and since we're now always able to trade everything, they're all always able to sell everything.

    Right now, if I were to get a random weapon from Denathrius or whatever without already having that ilvl, there's nothing I could do. But with this change I can just roll on the 3 weapons he drops at the same time and I'll possibly be able to sell all 3 - which I would do, because the fuck do I care about a 7 ilvl upgrade when all I do is raid in PuGs.

    PL got you your stuff and if you were lucky, you could get more. GL doesn't guarantee you your stuff. You can go an entire raid and not get a single item if you have unlucky rolls. This isn't even just remotely the same. This can and probably will easily bring GDKP into retail's PuG raiding scene again - because now there's 50 items per raid and you can probably roll on like 30 of them, whereas with PL you got 2 items... and that was it - so why the hell not abuse the hell out of that.
  1. Relapses's Avatar
    Blizzard, to players: Find a fucking guild.
  1. rayvio's Avatar
    so personal loot was working really well and only needed a few tweaks to perfect it... so as usual it gets thrown away and replaced with something stupidly awful that'll make nobody happy...
  1. [Apok]'s Avatar
    Well that's me not pugging with any alts.
  1. Accendor's Avatar
    I already see the Puggers hating on the mythic crowd for the group loot changes, when in reality nobody asked for personal loot to be removed, just for ML to make a return.
  1. Sinaa's Avatar
    So because of some ehm people that did not understand that loot quantities have been adjusted to accommodate for the wasted items from personal loot, we get this garbage. Fantastic, huzzah, praise ION! People got used to personal loot, many have grown to like it, seriously fork vocal minorities ruining good things.
  1. Alkizon's Avatar
    /Unique Drops/ Description looks like (although they deny it, but still) breeding result of corruption/AA + tf gear or SL's light legendary item without crafting (all of which is bad). I'm not sure, that understand, what exactly they were trying to achieve with this, especially considering my relentless critique of ilvl inflation per se.
  1. Enter Name Here's Avatar
    i'm curious what their stance will be on players that deliberately click need on every item just because they can. will it be a bannable offense these years? sadly, i'm not able to post on US official forums.
  1. Relapses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by rayvio View Post
    so personal loot was working really well and only needed a few tweaks to perfect it... so as usual it gets thrown away and replaced with something stupidly awful that'll make nobody happy...
    Definitely wasn't working well for organized group content. This is a concession for guild groups.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinaa View Post
    So because of some ehm people that did not understand that loot quantities have been adjusted to accommodate for the wasted items from personal loot, we get this garbage. Fantastic, huzzah, praise ION! People got used to personal loot, many have grown to like it, seriously fork vocal minorities ruining good things.
    I don't think it was just a "vocal minority" who was displeased with forced PL. I do agree that ML w/ extra steps is kind of... an interesting move. And this definitely does read like a very complicated solution to something Blizzard already solved ages ago.
  1. Sanguinerd's Avatar
    God they're so unbelievably thick over there.. It's tiresome.

    It's like the game isn't 15 years old and they don't know their own players but live in this little bubble of delusion.

    All they had to do was remove the trade restrictions from PL, NOTHING MORE.. and we all know the reason that even existed in the first place
  1. [Apok]'s Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinerd View Post
    God they're so unbelievably thick over there.. It's tiresome.

    It's like the game isn't 15 years old and they don't know their own players but live in this little bubble of delusion

    All they had to do was remove the trade restrictions from PL, NOTHING MORE.. and we all know the reason that even existed in the first place
    This tbh, typical blizzard, let's come up with some fix that wil create just as many problems as it solves instead of just fixing the problem.
  1. Trumpcat's Avatar
    Will there be a point to raiding below Mythic difficulty in terms of gear upgrades when you can easier and faster get better gear from M+?
  1. DechCJC's Avatar
    Did anyone want this? Pretty sure all anyone wanted was for loot to be tradeable and for ML to be an option. How do they come to these answers...
  1. Itisamuh's Avatar
    The looting issue is something I guess I will never understand. They should just leave everything as personal loot, which is by far the best system in literally every way, and simply allow all drops to be tradable with no restrictions. That way people can distribute if they want to, but nobody is at the mercy of others against their will.
  1. lllll's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Blizzard, to players: Find a fucking guild.
    I avoid guilds. My past guilds have been filled with people I'd rather not associate with at all and I doubt it's going to be any different in any other guilds.
  1. Eazy's Avatar
    I've never seen anyone complaining about the Personal Loot.

    I haven't seen people wanted a higher ilvl item bonuses from the raid neither.

    Seems like a bad idea tbh.
  1. Nymrohd's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    There is absolutely nothing suggesting that you can roll Need on something you couldn't otherwise just have gotten from PL. Effectively, PL is just everyone rolling Need anyway. Now you can get people who pass.
    There is a massive difference. With Personal Loot it was the system's "fault". You could not pass any blame, real or imaginary, to the players because it was the system deciding. With Group Loot, everyone who rolls need on something someone wants is a %$@%$#@^%$@%$ whose mother should ^%$%&%^#&$%^ and will be getting death threats on whispers until they block people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    I've never seen anyone complaining about the Personal Loot.

    I haven't seen people wanted a higher ilvl item bonuses from the raid neither.

    Seems like a bad idea tbh.
    A group of people did complain endlessly. But I doubt they were ever the majority. And everyone else was OK with and didn't know it is our duty to scream them down because Blizzard likes to design by the loudest voice.
  1. Biomega's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There is a massive difference. With Personal Loot it was the system's "fault". You could not pass any blame, real or imaginary, to the players because it was the system deciding. With Group Loot, everyone who rolls need on something someone wants is a %$@%$#@^%$@%$ whose mother should ^%$%&%^#&$%^ and will be getting death threats on whispers until they block people.
    I mean, I see the potential for drama to be sure, but the EFFECT for the average group will be the same or better. Class-stacking aside, there's no reason to think your odds of getting an item are worse now.

    In fact the group balance thing is the only real problem I see, in terms of actual loot acquisition rates. In particular hunters, as every ranged weapon that drops is just a kick in the teeth for all but TWO specs in the entire game. And one of the extra-thicc drops is a bow. That's just pretty damn aggravating.
  1. Holdodlig's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by saixilein View Post
    I dont get how all this is bad cause it doesnt affect you as a player. You domt have amy disadvantages if players buy boosts or something.
    I was in this kind of mindset before. But seeing your friends leave because they feel their achievement is downgraded by the fact anybody can just pay for it is actually impacting. And I'm pretty sure it prevents people from joining the game when people tell them the game is P2W.
  1. saixilein's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdodlig View Post
    I was in this kind of mindset before. But seeing your friends leave because they feel their achievement is downgraded by the fact anybody can just pay for it is actually impacting. And I'm pretty sure it prevents people from joining the game when people tell them the game is P2W.
    But if you say so the game was always pay2win. Just spent your money/gold on people who boosting. Nothing changed, just you can buy gold now legally and more people pay for boosts.

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