Changes & Experiments to Raid Rewards in Dragonflight Season 1
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Hey everyone! We wanted to get out a sort of primer ahead of the Raid Testing tomorrow to provide context for the sorts of changes you will (and won’t) see as you step into Dragonflight’s first raid, Vault of the Incarnates.

Before diving into what’s different - this post is going to be entirely about the Raid. We’ll have other information before long available on what’s going on with other endgame activities (like Mythic+) at a later date, so we won’t be making any mention of them here just to stay focused on the topic at hand.
Without further ado, here’s what’s in for tomorrow:

Group Loot:
  • While inside Vault of the Incarnates, Group Loot will be the only method of loot distribution. There is no option to select for yourself or your group to return to Personal Loot.
  • Some items, like professions reagents may still use Personal Loot where appropriate.
  • Need & Greed UI will return, and we’ll be monitoring feedback to make the rules around when and how players can roll on items be as intuitive as possible.

Loot Trading
  • While inside a raid, all item level restrictions placed on trading between members of that group are removed entirely. This means that even small item level increases that aren’t upgrades (as is often the case with rings and necklaces, which are budgeted high in secondary stats) won’t be locked to a player even in the case that they roll and win that item.

Item Level Tiering
  • There now exists a 3rd item level tier at which items may drop, up from 2.
  • 389 is the base item level for Normal difficulty and will drop from Eranog, Primal Council, Sennarth, and Terros.
  • 395 is a new intermediate tier (was previously final bosses) that exists now for Wing Bosses - Dathea, Ascended and Kurog Grimtotem.
  • 398 is reserved for Final Bosses - Broodkeeper Diurna and Raszageth, the Storm-Eater
  • These item level increases still stay within the +13 band for each ‘tier’ of difficulty - meaning that Heroic Base would start at item level 402, just +4 after them.

For a long while we’ve observed that while players love the challenge of powerful wing bosses and ‘mid-tier walls’ like Halondrus, Sludgefist, and Painsmith Raznal - it didn’t make much sense when overcoming those involved challenges rewarded you with the same gear as you got from defeating a Shriekwing, or similar first boss. Our hope is that by introducing new tiers of raid rewards, progressing through Vault of the Incarnates (and future raids) will feel more meaningful as you master the difficult encounters within.

Unique Drops
Additionally, we’re experimenting a number of bosses that possess one item that intentionally drops at a higher item level - usually +6 or +7 from that boss’s normal table.

To be clear: this isn’t titanforging. It will be the same item every time, and will be very slightly rarer to compensate (and pending some new tech, we’ll have the ability to note this in the dungeon journal itself). These can be unique appearances, items with special bonus effects, or a powerful trinket that many people may seek after.

We have a few things we’re hoping to accomplish with this:

  • Retain some excitement from early bosses that groups typically master very quickly and no longer become challenging by spicing up their loot tables
  • Give more long-term goals for difficult encounters
  • Make a larger push towards having Item Level accurately reflect the power of a particular item.

While we added many strong effects to weapons in Shadowlands, it wasn’t easily communicated how good an effect actually was - for instance Edge of Night (the sylvanas daggers) were clearly much stronger than their item level indicated, but they still appeared the same as the rest of her loot table. Our hope is that by being a bit more flexible with item level, we can give ourselves better tools for tuning these effects appropriately and in a way that makes sense to all players intuitively.
For the moment it’s intended that not all 8 bosses posses one, but that’s something that could change in the future. Current examples of unique drops are:

  • A pair of special rings from Eranog and Diurna
  • An ‘Omni Trinket’ (Str/Agi/Int) from the Primal Council that gets stronger with more copies
  • A special bow from the Storm Incarnate herself, Raszageth

That ends the list of things that are exist and are implemented (though tuning for trinkets and special effects are still very work-in-progress). That said, we’d also like to share some plans that aren’t implemented. We’re interested in trying this out for a future beta build and getting your feedback on how it feels.

Bind-on-Equip items:
  • Regular non-boss enemies within raids will no longer have a chance to drop Bind on Equip Epic items. Instead, ‘Lieutenant’ enemies - named mini-bosses throughout the raid - will have chances to drop them instead. These would work like LT’s do in current WoW, where you’re only eligible to receive loot from them once per week, per difficulty.
  • BoEs would become scaled with group size like regular bosses do. This would guarantee a set number of BoEs each raid per group, assuming a full clear of the instance.
  • Lastly, we’d be placing more important items into the BoE pool. This could be anything from weapons to higher item-level pieces to make them more worthwhile to raiders.

The goal of these changes are to reimagining BoEs by making the raid environment itself a sort of ‘9th boss’, with a guaranteed amount of extra loot to reward progressing deeper into the raid or efficient full clears without the need to kill every single bat or Mawsworn off in a corner of the battlefield to get your value. Additionally, this as an opportunity to create clear and understandable rules about how BoEs work, and support them as a reliable source of gear players want, rather than feel like an afterthought.

That’s all for now - please feel free to ask questions and provide feedback both on this post, and as some of you dive into Raid Testing over the next week or so and we’ll respond and clarify as much as we can. Thanks for reading, and enjoy the raid!
This article was originally published in forum thread: Changes & Experiments to Raid Rewards in Dragonflight Season 1 started by Stoy View original post
Comments 108 Comments
  1. Argorwal's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    But it hasn't been a thing with PL.
    Keep PL, remove trading restrictions and you immediately circumvent all problems that GL in PuGs could ever bring with it.
    Isn’t PL just essentially the same as if everyone hit need in GL automatically?

    To me the big difference is you can’t game the loot table with class stacking which is something I’ve hated for a while. A loot system that encourages class/armor stacking to me has been awful.
  1. cLax0n's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    But it hasn't been a thing with PL.
    Keep PL, remove trading restrictions and you immediately circumvent all problems that GL in PuGs could ever bring with it.
    "*In the past, Need/Greed only knew if something was equippable or the right armor type, not if it was meant for your spec or not. This is now changed.

    *First off, you can never Need for anything your class cannot wear. No warriors sniping cloth robes with a need roll and giving it away or trolling.

    *We also have mainspec and offspec functionality built-in, which changes based on the current loot spec you set.

    *Main spec takes priority, then Off spec, then greed. So while a Ret paladin can’t off-spec loot a shield away from a main-spec roll from the Tank, anyone rolling greed could never win it over them. This also means that if you swap specs for a specific fight, like going Holy, you can still main spec roll for your desired items if they come from that boss without having to worry about hurting yourself by being flexible to your group.

    *Players won’t be able to win multiples of the same item - say that 2 sets of Shoulders drop. While you can roll Need on both of them, winning one will ‘remove’ your roll from the other.

    *Additionally, players can’t Need on a piece of loot if they’re wearing the exact piece at the exact item level, though in the event where this occurs but the dropped piece has a Tertiary stat or Socket, that roll would be possible (as those are upgrades).

    *Lastly, even after winning the roll, items remain fully tradeable without restrictions to any player that was eligible as a looter - as-in, if you weren’t locked to that boss previously. Inversely, this means that players who have already killed Boss 1 on Normal for the week can’t join for that boss and have loot traded to them (similarly, the need/greed pane won’t appear for that player)."


    This is a direct quote from a blue post. The new group loot is better.
  1. Gasparde's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by cLax0n View Post
    "*In the past, Need/Greed only knew if something was equippable or the right armor type, not if it was meant for your spec or not. This is now changed.

    *First off, you can never Need for anything your class cannot wear. No warriors sniping cloth robes with a need roll and giving it away or trolling.

    *We also have mainspec and offspec functionality built-in, which changes based on the current loot spec you set.

    *Main spec takes priority, then Off spec, then greed. So while a Ret paladin can’t off-spec loot a shield away from a main-spec roll from the Tank, anyone rolling greed could never win it over them. This also means that if you swap specs for a specific fight, like going Holy, you can still main spec roll for your desired items if they come from that boss without having to worry about hurting yourself by being flexible to your group.

    *Players won’t be able to win multiples of the same item - say that 2 sets of Shoulders drop. While you can roll Need on both of them, winning one will ‘remove’ your roll from the other.

    *Additionally, players can’t Need on a piece of loot if they’re wearing the exact piece at the exact item level, though in the event where this occurs but the dropped piece has a Tertiary stat or Socket, that roll would be possible (as those are upgrades).

    *Lastly, even after winning the roll, items remain fully tradeable without restrictions to any player that was eligible as a looter - as-in, if you weren’t locked to that boss previously. Inversely, this means that players who have already killed Boss 1 on Normal for the week can’t join for that boss and have loot traded to them (similarly, the need/greed pane won’t appear for that player)."


    This is a direct quote from a blue post. The new group loot is better.
    Man, thank god this absolutely intuitive loot system had to come with 6 asterisks to elaborate all the hidden bells, whistles and levers going on in the background.
    And thank god these were only elaborated after the initial announcement painted a very unflattering picture.

    They have a long history of releasing shitty systems with obvious and immediate flaws that remain ignored anyways. To then release another statement with obvious and immediate flaws, without further elaborating that they have addressed these flaws behind the scenes already... they had that backlash coming.

    I'm still not convinced this system is gonna do away with loot drama or frustration, if anything I'm more worried that it's gonna get worse due to sheer quantity of loot now that bosses drop less, bonus rolls are gone and every item that drops is rolled on by 8 people. I'll remain reserved about GL over PL in PuGs, albeit slightly less infuriated.
  1. Relapses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    Man, thank god this absolutely intuitive loot system had to come with 6 asterisks to elaborate all the hidden bells, whistles and levers going on in the background.
    And thank god these were only elaborated after the initial announcement painted a very unflattering picture.

    They have a long history of releasing shitty systems with obvious and immediate flaws that remain ignored anyways. To then release another statement with obvious and immediate flaws, without further elaborating that they have addressed these flaws behind the scenes already... they had that backlash coming.

    I'm still not convinced this system is gonna do away with loot drama or frustration, if anything I'm more worried that it's gonna get worse due to sheer quantity of loot now that bosses drop less, bonus rolls are gone and every item that drops is rolled on by 8 people. I'll remain reserved about GL over PL in PuGs, albeit slightly less infuriated.
    To be fair, it seems like they're trying to explain that the system is essentially doing what PL did before... the main difference being that we can now see the rolls. And they've opened up the ability for all loot to be traded after the fact no matter what so it seems like if your preferred solution was PL with open trading that's essentially what this is. I still think it's a bit convoluted and they'd be better off giving players the choice but Blizzard's gonna Blizzard.
  1. Nymrohd's Avatar
    With the clarifications I think this is OK. It's probably better than what we have. I hope need and greed choices are opaque to reduce player drama. I do think it was idiotic to publish that blog and call this group loot when the rules have evolved to such an extent that it is nothing like the group loot we originally had.
  1. Gasparde's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    PL with open trading that's essentially what this is. I still think it's a bit convoluted
    Exactly.

    At one point they say "intuitive" and then they do this.
    I'm pretty sure just removing trading restrictions would've been a lot more... intuitive.

    And obviously, yes, a choice would've been splendid. Especially since their reasoning for getting rid of GL/ML in the first place was to combat the toxic abusive bullying loot stealing boogeyman guilds that were allegedly plaguing everyone's experience... and now we're just going back to that, but this time you don't even have a choice - fucking odd.
  1. Cracked's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    To be fair, it seems like they're trying to explain that the system is essentially doing what PL did before... the main difference being that we can now see the rolls. And they've opened up the ability for all loot to be traded after the fact no matter what so it seems like if your preferred solution was PL with open trading that's essentially what this is. I still think it's a bit convoluted and they'd be better off giving players the choice but Blizzard's gonna Blizzard.
    No, because under PL, the loot that actually drops depends on the classes and specs present at the time of kill. With group loot, the boss dies and a number of items from his loot table are randomly dropped. No regard for who is present. As a classic wow andy, this is how it should be. Loot in RPGs should not depend on how you built your characters or raid comps. Sadly we've seen a departure from that, because RPGs became so simplistic that aiming for and even knowing what full bis is became the norm.
  1. Relapses's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    No, because under PL, the loot that actually drops depends on the classes and specs present at the time of kill. With group loot, the boss dies and a number of items from his loot table are randomly dropped. No regard for who is present. As a classic wow andy, this is how it should be. Loot in RPGs should not depend on how you built your characters or raid comps. Sadly we've seen a departure from that, because RPGs became so simplistic that aiming for and even knowing what full bis is became the norm.
    One could argue with the ability for players to "opt-out" of the rolls that the potential for non-wasted loot is higher than it was with PL even if PL technically dropped more items. I think this system is the better way forward but I still contend that the option for PL should be there for groups who would prefer not to see how the sausage is made.

Site Navigation