Actions Taken to Curb Griefing by Repeatedly Leaving Groups

Originally Posted by Lochton

Well. We haven't heard who has been banned, though?

We did not. What does that tell us about people who were banned?
As soon as high level pushers start getting banned, we will absolutely hear about it. It's not a big community, and most of those players are connected to or known by more prominent players, one way or another.

Originally Posted by Neotart

Where does it say any of that?

Today, we issued gameplay suspensions to players who intentionally left Mythic+ groups a great many times

reading is hard?

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Originally Posted by LanToaster

To be Fair, its not stated if they took those from Reports, or from their own Statistic.

It literally is stated.

I don't know why you people are acting dense. No where did they say anything about reports, they literally said they took action again people who intentionally left M+ many times. Jesus fucking Christ common sense is really a lost art?

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Originally Posted by deplorable

i'm just having images of a poor guy in Ukraine, who finally has a stable internet connection and blizzard bans him.

I mean, even in this silly situation it would be pretty shitty of a person to willingly keep joining M+ groups if they knew they had an unreliable internet connection.

Originally Posted by Veelaru

Then add some in-game counter of the times the person has quit, so that you can see not only their best runs, io, and ilvl but also how often they tend to grief. There will be some room for exploitation and still some "F"s pressed for people with bad connection, yet leaving the issue as it is would be a bad option.

There's no way to know if it was griefing or not in this situation. Players will understand that leaving = griefing and then hold keys hostage, likely forcing other people (implicitly, the people NOT grieifing) to get frustrated with the situation and leave first. Nothing of value is gained by forcing players to stay in a key they don't want to be in.

Originally Posted by Rageonit

You think this kind of system requires any human input whatsoever...?

How difficult do you think is it to create a tool that would monitor who leaves a key mid run, store that data and than compare it to a total number of runs a particular character does, and that compare it to some kind of a median? Blizzard already revealed they have tools to monitor all raid activity: number of pulls, number of wipes to a particular mechanic etc. etc. Quite hard to imagine they are unable to create similar tools for dungeons. If anything, they already have them in place for years.

do you know how bad the high key pug leave rate it?its over 50%,so unless that tool can magicaly determine that leave as ''toxic''...my guess is half the people who push keys in pugs will get banned LOL

Originally Posted by Tech614

I don't know why you people are acting dense. No where did they say anything about reports, they literally said they took action again people who intentionally left M+ many times. Jesus fucking Christ common sense is really a lost art?

If you want to take action against people who intentionally leave M+, you need a source for that list. You can:
A: You can Take Action against people who Intentionally left M+, according to Player Reports.
B: You can Take Action against people who Intentionally left M+, according to Internal Statistics without Player Input.

You should not be complaining about a "lack of common sense", when you dont actually comprehend what people say.

Originally Posted by Veelaru

Then add some in-game counter of the times the person has quit, so that you can see not only their best runs, io, and ilvl but also how often they tend to grief. There will be some room for exploitation and still some "F"s pressed for people with bad connection, yet leaving the issue as it is would be a bad option.

While I think something like that would breed Toxcicity on a whole new level, I sometimes wish I could see that Value.
It certainly wouldnt be hard to track that Metric, just track how many Dungeons a player started that didnt complete. Could be Displayed as a nice % Number.
If you dont complete 9 out of 10 dungeons you join, you only have a 10% Completion score. (Maybe even for any specific Level)

Though, that would as I said a whole new kind of Toxic Behaviour. BUT, you could avoid people who ditch most of their Groups.

Originally Posted by LanToaster

If you want to take action against people who intentionally leave M+, you need a source for that list. You can:
A: You can Take Action against people who Intentionally left M+, according to Player Reports.
B: You can Take Action against people who Intentionally left M+, according to Internal Statistics without Player Input.

You should not be complaining about a "lack of common sense", when you dont actually comprehend what people say.


While I think something like that would breed Toxcicity on a whole new level, I sometimes wish I could see that Value.
It certainly wouldnt be hard to track that Metric, just track how many Dungeons a player started that didnt complete. Could be Displayed as a nice % Number.
If you dont complete 9 out of 10 dungeons you join, you only have a 10% Completion score. (Maybe even for any specific Level)

Though, that would as I said a whole new kind of Toxic Behaviour. BUT, you could avoid people who ditch most of their Groups.

The problem with a leaver counter is that it opens the door for false positives. If some dude bricks a key then decides that he has all the time in the world to wait for somebody else to leave so it impacts their leaver metric instead; then what you end up with is a system that is punishing the people playing the game correctly and tacitly encouraging shithead behavior by players who are only seeking to keep their record clean. And before you say, "well most people aren't shitheads," play a few games of League where there's a surrender button at 15 minutes and lose your lane. People spam that shit like crazy and even if you ultimately win the game, most players check out once they think the game is unwinnable. Systems like this will just make keys worse for everybody while handing the keys over to psychopaths who seek only to enrage players who are trying to play the game correctly.

Originally Posted by deenman

do you know how bad the high key pug leave rate it?its over 50%,so unless that tool can magicaly determine that leave as ''toxic''...my guess is half the people who push keys in pugs will get banned LOL

Yes, I know, I pug a lot - I'd say it's about 10-20% for me. Remember, in every group you join, you are the only common denominator, so...
Anyway, yeah, a tool can easily filter out situations where it's not "toxic", like a run with many deaths etc. etc., and will easily find people who leave unusually often. Even if you're right that the average leave rate is 50%, the tool will look for above average leave rate. Otherwise they would have to ban every pug. If your "math" is right, that is.

Originally Posted by Relapses

The problem with a leaver counter is that it opens the door for false positives. If some dude bricks a key then decides that he has all the time in the world to wait for somebody else to leave so it impacts their leaver metric instead; then what you end up with is a system that is punishing the people playing the game correctly and tacitly encouraging shithead behavior by players who are only seeking to keep their record clean. And before you say, "well most people aren't shitheads," play a few games of League where there's a surrender button at 15 minutes and lose your lane. People spam that shit like crazy and even if you ultimately win the game, most players check out once they think the game is unwinnable. Systems like this will just make keys worse for everybody while handing the keys over to psychopaths who seek only to enrage players who are trying to play the game correctly.

Thats what I meant it would create a whole new level of Toxic behaviour, i´m with you, any kind of Metric or open/trackable Punishment would make it overall much worse for the majority.

But I still sometimes wish for viewable completion Rate.
That way I could choose for example a 610 Player with a 80% CompletionRate over a 620 Person with only a 20% Completion Rate. Or the other way around, I often skip people with Higher RIO or ItemLevel, because there is the Fear of the Ditching the key over the smallest fuckup (or them having bought their Rating).

Right now, when i´m checking people, its for me a Massive Red flag when the Highest Keys are all Timed+2, and avoid those people.
(And before someone says: "Buuuuut 12 Keys and so on", I dont push keys over 10, so I dont care about that)

Originally Posted by LanToaster

Thats what I meant it would create a whole new level of Toxic behaviour, i´m with you, any kind of Metric or open/trackable Punishment would make it overall much worse for the majority.

But I still sometimes wish for viewable completion Rate.
That way I could choose for example a 610 Player with a 80% CompletionRate over a 620 Person with only a 20% Completion Rate. Or the other way around, I often skip people with Higher RIO or ItemLevel, because there is the Fear of the Ditching the key over the smallest fuckup (or them having bought their Rating).

That information is completely immaterial when the mere existence of such a statistic would encourage degeneracy. We're simply better off not knowing.

Now, if there were a way to grade players post-key and then use completion rate as a factor... I think Blizzard could (and should) develop a system like this. The main problem is that key success rate is mitigated by factors that are independent of skill expression in a key and these factors will skew towards lower-skilled players over the course of a season as a player who only completes a single +10 per week will eventually be on even footing with the try hards doing +12s the first week of the season. Regardless, we should be encouraging the devs to look into this as it can serve to make the PuG experience less of a nightmare, which will result in higher key participation numbers and have the knock-on effect of increasing completion rates across the board.

Originally Posted by deplorable

i'm just having images of a poor guy in Ukraine, who finally has a stable internet connection and blizzard bans him.

I supose the guys in Ukraine are too busy trying to survive the genocidal wave of invaders to care about games now.

Originally Posted by Relapses

That information is completely immaterial when the mere existence of such a statistic would encourage degeneracy. We're simply better off not knowing.

I reread your earlier Response, you misunderstood me. I dont mean a "Leaver Statistic". But an overall completion rate.
So if someone leaves, the group disbands, or the entire group decides to give up everyone´s statistic will be hit.

That way its Natural for people to not have a 100% Completion Rate, because keys can always Fail.
But, on people who regulary at least complete their keys the hit might be negligable.

People would probably still find ways to toxic that up, but its nowhere near what you imagined.

Originally Posted by Relapses

Now, if there were a way to grade players post-key and then use completion rate as a factor... I think Blizzard could (and should) develop a system like this. The main problem is that key success rate is mitigated by factors that are independent of skill expression in a key and these factors will skew towards lower-skilled players over the course of a season as a player who only completes a single +10 per week will eventually be on even footing with the try hards doing +12s the first week of the season. Regardless, we should be encouraging the devs to look into this as it can serve to make the PuG experience less of a nightmare, which will result in higher key participation numbers and have the knock-on effect of increasing completion rates across the board.

I cant really follow you here, do you mean a Grading system like a replacement for the Score, where each player gets Points according to their Performance of the Key?

Originally Posted by Rageonit

Yes, I know, I pug a lot - I'd say it's about 10-20% for me. Remember, in every group you join, you are the only common denominator, so...
Anyway, yeah, a tool can easily filter out situations where it's not "toxic", like a run with many deaths etc. etc., and will easily find people who leave unusually often. Even if you're right that the average leave rate is 50%, the tool will look for above average leave rate. Otherwise they would have to ban every pug. If your "math" is right, that is.

sorry but i just dont believe you if you claim 10-20% in pugs?!,what key levels? i have even seen far worse,a m+ streamer OneAzerothTV showed how he had 91% disband rate in high keys ,and it wasnt his fault,in high keys people dont stick around after a wipe because the odds of doing it on time are extremly unlikely,when all they want is score

Originally Posted by LanToaster

I reread your earlier Response, you misunderstood me. I dont mean a "Leaver Statistic". But an overall completion rate.
So if someone leaves, the group disbands, or the entire group decides to give up everyone´s statistic will be hit.

I understood you perfectly fine. How do you separate a guy with shit luck who is trying to push keys and hitting a brick wall versus the dude smurfing in low keys because he only cares about his weekly box?

You're encouraging the latter playstyle and disencouraging the former. Considering the point of an infinitely scaling system is to push yourself to the level where you start getting keys like the former, you'd be encouraging players to simply never push. It's bad news. We're better off not knowing this information.

That way its Natural for people to not have a 100% Completion Rate, because keys can always Fail.
But, on people who regulary at least complete their keys the hit might be negligable.

Again, it's only negligible in situations where you're not pushing.

People would probably still find ways to toxic that up, but its nowhere near what you imagined.

I assume the worst because I've seen the worst. There are games that have these systems already in place and I can easily see WoW players adapting the same bad habits as players in these games. You're replacing one form of toxicity for another.

I cant really follow you here, do you mean a Grading system like a replacement for the Score, where each player gets Points according to their Performance of the Key?

I think it'd have to be over the course of a season to really be effective but generally speaking Blizzard could weigh completion rate with how high you pushed and then use a general performance metric (that's intentionally hidden to players) to give an overall score. This score can be seen by other players to let them know what quality player they're inviting to their key. It would naturally disencourage toxicity since toxicity would negatively impact their score.

Originally Posted by deenman

a m+ streamer OneAzerothTV showed how he had 91% disband rate in high keys ,and it wasnt his fault,in high keys people dont stick around after a wipe because the odds of doing it on time are extremly unlikely,when all they want is score

Do you read the posts you're responding to? Because I've said very clearly that in high keys disband rate is naturally much, much higher; and that any tool checking if players leave more often than average will do it in an appropriate level range. It's rather obvious that a 17 will have a higher disband rate than a 2.

Originally Posted by Ereb

Posting in a thread talking about blizz deliberately banning people for leaving, and you wanna take the griefing to the next level? A lot of faith doesn't seem to be needed LOL

I mean I don't intend to grief. But I understand the wow player base. There are no levels of toxicity to which the wow players will not sink.

Originally Posted by Relapses

I understood you perfectly fine. How do you separate a guy with shit luck who is trying to push keys and hitting a brick wall versus the dude smurfing in low keys because he only cares about his weekly box?

You're encouraging the latter playstyle and disencouraging the former. Considering the point of an infinitely scaling system is to push yourself to the level where you start getting keys like the former, you'd be encouraging players to simply never push. It's bad news. We're better off not knowing this information.

If you view Completion Rate according to Key-Level that would be fixed. And someone who has shit luck trying to push his keys, will have shit luck either way.
People will still push keys for the same reason they do now. People who do keys for Loot, will still want to do their weekly 10, and people who want high numbers would still want high key numbers.

Mostly its the same as you already see with the RIO Plugin: "Timed runs on this Level" But weighted to actual runs.
That meas

Originally Posted by Relapses

I think it'd have to be over the course of a season to really be effective but generally speaking Blizzard could weigh completion rate with how high you pushed and then use a general performance metric (that's intentionally hidden to players) to give an overall score.

This is literally the same thing I proposed, with the caveat that it aggregates the CompletionRate at the end of the Season, instead of it beeing live. (Which makes it kinda usless, as alot of people switch Chars for seasons, and Meta Changes.)

Originally Posted by Relapses

This score can be seen by other players to let them know what quality player they're inviting to their key. It would naturally disencourage toxicity since toxicity would negatively impact their score.

Which is exactly what you see if you just display the CompletionRate like the RIO Plugin now displays the Timed runs.
Also, you cannot say:
"Displaying Overall Dungeon Completions will encourage toxicity", and then say, "tieing the Score to completion Rate will discourage toxicity"

Originally Posted by prwraith

I mean I don't intend to grief. But I understand the wow player base. There are no levels of toxicity to which the wow players will not sink.

You would not have survived an Xbox 360 CoD lobby if you think WoW is max level toxicity. It's not even close in reality. Truth is games punishing toxicity is mostly a more recent thing and WoW has always been tame compared to most other online games in that regard. The only online game I can think of that is "less toxic" than WoW is XIV which has it's own issues due to ass clapping toxicity which is rampant toxic positivity and passive aggressiveness.

Originally Posted by LanToaster

If you view Completion Rate according to Key-Level that would be fixed. And someone who has shit luck trying to push his keys, will have shit luck either way.
People will still push keys for the same reason they do now. People who do keys for Loot, will still want to do their weekly 10, and people who want high numbers would still want high key numbers.

Mostly its the same as you already see with the RIO Plugin: "Timed runs on this Level" But weighted to actual runs.
That meas


This is literally the same thing I proposed, with the caveat that it aggregates the CompletionRate at the end of the Season, instead of it beeing live. (Which makes it kinda usless, as alot of people switch Chars for seasons, and Meta Changes.)


Which is exactly what you see if you just display the CompletionRate like the RIO Plugin now displays the Timed runs.
Also, you cannot say:
"Displaying Overall Dungeon Completions will encourage toxicity", and then say, "tieing the Score to completion Rate will discourage toxicity"

Players start keys that do not complete all the time, especially at the +10 and +12 keystone level. It is exceptionally bad at the +12 level since the only reason you'd complete this key is for IO. Forcing players to stay in a key like this when it's known from the first pull that the key is a lost cause will increase toxicity at an insane level.

Moreover, the system I suggested would be one that weighs completion rate against other factors and generates a rating that can be seen by other players, not one that shows completion rate on its own. It's an important distinction because completion rate on its own is meaningless but, when weighted with other factors, can be useful in getting a general idea about whether a player is worth inviting to your key.

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Originally Posted by Tech614

You would not have survived an Xbox 360 CoD lobby if you think WoW is max level toxicity. It's not even close in reality. Truth is games punishing toxicity is mostly a more recent thing and WoW has always been tame compared to most other online games in that regard. The only online game I can think of that is "less toxic" than WoW is XIV which has it's own issues due to ass clapping toxicity which is rampant toxic positivity and passive aggressiveness.

Man... XIV's passive aggressive approach to toxicity is one of the main reasons I quit playing it. It's like a DPS in WoW pinging the tank on a pull they want them to do (even though it's not in the route). Fuck off, thank you.

Originally Posted by Relapses

Players start keys that do not complete all the time, especially at the +10 and +12 keystone level. It is exceptionally bad at the +12 level since the only reason you'd complete this key is for IO. Forcing players to stay in a key like this when it's known from the first pull that the key is a lost cause will increase toxicity at an insane level.

Who would force anyone to be in a +12?
If people usually start +12 keys 20 times before one gets finished, then thats the normal Completion Rate for that Key Level, I dont see a problem.
However, I wont Invite someone to my +10 Key, who only completes 5% of the +10 Keys they start. Because I expect that key to be Completed.

Originally Posted by Relapses

Moreover, the system I suggested would be one that weighs completion rate against other factors and generates a rating that can be seen by other players, not one that shows completion rate on its own. It's an important distinction because completion rate on its own is meaningless but, when weighted with other factors, can be useful in getting a general idea about whether a player is worth inviting to your key.

Which factors?
As you said CompletionRate Per KeyHeight is Useless and Breeds Toxicity, which Factors do you envision, how would you Calculate a Score?

Also, ANY single metric is next to useless. If you want to aggregate Completionrate and other metrics you dont say into a single score, it will not tell you anything usefull, because people will then as you previously said gamer the system for their "Perfect Possible Score", or just buy it. Its the same how RIO score alone is Useless. If you want to make an Informed Decision you need to check the other aviable data.

You guys are weird, really weird.