Upcoming Class Tuning With Weekly Maintenance - March 25, 2025

Upcoming Class Tuning With Weekly Maintenance - March 25, 2025
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
With Season 2 now in full swing, and following the Mythic raid being fully cleared, we’ve compiled a major set of tuning changes to address over- and under-performance in all types of group content. We’re planning to make the following adjustments with scheduled weekly maintenance on Tuesday, March 25 in this region.

Classes

  • DEATH KNIGHT
    • Frost
      • All ability damage increased by 4%. Does not apply to PvP combat.
  • DEMON HUNTER
    • Vengeance
      • Deflecting Spikes (Talent) now causes Demon Spikes to increase Parry chance by 10% (was 15%).
  • DRUID
    • Balance
      • Wrath damage increased by 30%.
      • Starsurge damage increased by 5%.
      • Elune’s Chosen: Lunar Calling increases Starfire’s damage to its primary target by 160% (was 100%).
    • Guardian
      • Druid of the Claw: Dreadful Wound damage increased by 20%.
      • Druid of the Claw: Empowered Shapeshifting increases Swipe’s damage by 12% (was 6%) and Mangle’s damage by 25% (was 15%).
      • Druid of the Claw: Wildpower Surge’s bonus to Rip damage reduced to 200% (was 225%).
  • EVOKER
    • Devastation
      • Fixed an issue where the final tick of Disintegrate would not benefit from Titanic Wrath or Iridescence while talented into Azure Celerity.
      • Developers’ notes: The Nerub-ar raid tier set bonus was too strong and was causing players to not want to equip new gear from Undermine(d). We’re reducing the Nerub-ar tier set’s effectiveness and buffing the new Undermine(d) set to encourage people to use the newer items.
      • Devastation Evoker Nerub-ar 4-piece now reduces the cooldown of Shattering Star and Eternity Surge by 1 second (was 4 seconds).
      • Devastation Evoker Undermine 2-piece now casts Shattering Star at 100% effectiveness (was 50%).
      • Chance for Devastation Evoker Undermine 2-piece now triggers 25% more frequently.
      • Devastation Evoker Undermine 4-piece increases the damage of your next empower spell by 25% per stack (was 20%).
    • Augmentation
      • Developers’ notes: After our last round of tuning, we were pleased with Augmentation’s support capabilities, as that’s the strength of the spec. However, their personal damage contribution is lower than we’d like. We’re buffing their personal damage to bring their overall output up without further increasing their support contributions.
      • Damage of all spells and abilities increased by 15%.
    • Preservation
      • Developers’ notes: The Nerub-ar tier set bonus was too strong, so we’re reducing the Nerub-ar tier set’s effectiveness and improving Preservation output overall with some targeted changes to improve Preservation’s performance in raid and Mythic+.
      • Preservation Evoker Nerub-ar 4-piece increases the healing of empower spells by 5% per stack (was 10%).
      • Healing of all spells and abilities increased by 5%.
      • Spiritbloom healing increased by 20%.
      • Energizing Flame refunds 80% of the mana cost of Living Flame when used to attack an enemy target (was 50%).
      • Disintegrate damage increased by 25% for Preservation.
      • Living Flame damage increased by 25% for Preservation (does not apply to PvP combat).
  • HUNTER
    • Beast Mastery
      • Developers’ Note: Beast Mastery is performing well, but we have a few planned changes to address some quality-of-life issues as well as a few bug fixes.
      • Dark Ranger: Black Arrow periodic effect duration increased to 14 seconds (was 10 seconds).
      • Dark Ranger: Withering Fire now prioritizes enemies that do not have Black Arrow’s periodic effect.
      • Pack Leader: Fixed a bug preventing Lead From the Front from increasing the Pack Leader Boar’s damage.
      • Withering Fire now fires 4 additional Black Arrows (was 2).
    • Survival
      • Developers’ Note: We’re increasing the frequency and power of Pack Leader’s summons for Survival to help make this Hero Talent tree more appealing.
      • All damage dealt increased by 4%.
      • Pack Leader: Dire Summons Kill Command cooldown reduction increased to 2 seconds (was 1 second).
      • Pack Leader: Bear damage increased by 40%.
      • Pack Leader: Boar damage increased by 40%.
      • Pack Leader: Howl of the Pack Leader duration reduced to 25 seconds (was 30 seconds).
      • Pack Leader: Fixed a bug preventing Lead from the Front from increasing the Pack Leader Boar’s damage.
    • Marksmanship
      • Developers’ Note: Dark Ranger’s performance is lower than expected, so we are making some substantial tuning changes to bring them closer to where we’d expect. We’d like Phantom Pain to be a compelling source of damage and worth playing around in Mythic+ and AOE scenarios, especially when combined with Trueshot and Withering Fire.
      • Explosive Shot damage increased by 15%.
      • Volley damage increased by 25%.
      • Dark Ranger: Black Arrow damage increased by 50%.
      • Dark Ranger: Black Arrow periodic effect duration increased to 14 seconds (was 10 seconds).
      • Dark Ranger: Phantom Pain damage share increased to 24% (was 8%).
      • Dark Ranger: Bleak Powder damage increased by 100%.
      • Dark Ranger: Withering Fire now prioritizes enemies that do not have the Black Arrow periodic effect.
  • MAGE
    • Arcane
      • All damage dealt increased by 8%. Does not apply to PvP combat.
    • Frost
      • All damage dealt increased by 4%. Does not apply to PvP combat.
    • Fire
      • All damage dealt reduced by 3%.
  • MONK
    • Windwalker
      • All damage decreased by 4%. Does not apply to PvP combat.
      • Slicing Winds damage increased by 20%. Does not apply to PvP combat.
    • Mistweaver
      • Developers’ notes: We’re decreasing Mistweaver’s overall damage while leaving their healing relatively unchanged. Spinning Crane Kick has still felt a touch weaker than we would like compared to the rest of Mistweaver’s kit, so we’re increasing the damage of Spinning Crane Kick alongside these changes.
      • All damage decreased by 25%. Does not apply to PvP combat.
      • Jadefire Teachings now increases Ancient Teaching’s transfer amount by 215% (was 160%). Does not apply to PvP combat.
      • Spinning Crane Kick damage increased by 15%.
      • Awakened Jadefire now transfers 120% of damage done (was 110%).
    • Brewmaster
      • 3% increase to all ability damage.
      • Undermine set bonus now increases damage of your next 2 casts of Blackout Kick by 250% (was 150%).
  • PALADIN
    • Holy
      • Developers’ notes: Holy Paladin’s throughput has been below our targets so we are combining an overall buff with targeted increases to a few spells we would like to feel particularly more impactful.
      • All healing increased by 3%.
      • Word of Glory and Eternal Flame healing increased by an additional 20%.
      • Light of Dawn healing increased by an additional 20%.
      • Holy Prism AoE healing and damage increased by an additional 30%.
      • Holy Prism single target healing and damage increased by an additional 50%.
      • Shield of the Righteous damage increased by 30%.
    • Retribution
      • Final Verdict damage increased by 20%.
  • PRIEST
    • Holy
      • Developers’ notes: Our aim with this Holy Priest tuning is to increase healing from weaker spells and talents. We’re also tuning up Oracle to improve its viability.
      • Prayer of Healing healing increased by 25%.
      • Prayer of Mending healing increased by 20%.
      • Renew healing increased by 60%.
      • Lightwell healing increased by 30%.
      • Divine Image healing increased by 20%.
      • Divine Image damage increased by 20%.
      • Holy Fire damage increased by 20%.
      • Renewed Faith now increases healing done to allies with Renew by 10% (was 6%).
      • Renews from Empowered Renew now heal for 120% more than a normal Renew (was 60%).
      • Oracle: Preemptive Care now increases the duration of Renew by 40% (was 25%).
      • Oracle: Preventive Measures now increases the healing of Prayer of Mending by 40% (was 25%).
      • Oracle: Preventive Measures now increases the damage of Smite, Holy Fire, and Holy Nova by 40% (was 25%).
    • Shadow
      • All damage done reduced by 3%.
    • Discipline
      • Lenience now causes Atonement to reduce damage taken by 2% (was 3%).
      • Atonement now causes spell damage to heal all targets affected by Atonement for 32% of damage done (was 35%). Not applied to PvP combat.
  • ROGUE
    • Assassination
      • Nerub-ar 2-piece set bonus - Vile Tincture max stacks reduced to 5 (was 10).
      • All ability damage increased by 3% (does not affect PvP).
      • Mutilate damage increased by 40% (does not affect PvP).
      • Ambush damage increased by 40% (does not affect PvP).
  • SHAMAN
    • Elemental
      • Developers’ notes: Elemental is performing lower than we would like in single target, and our changes to Primordial Wave in season 2 left it feeling a bit lackluster. We’re increasing damage of several core spells, and significantly increasing the damage and Maelstrom generation of Primordial Wave.
      • Lava Burst damage increased by 8%.
      • Lightning Bolt damage increased by 8%.
      • Icefury damage increased by 8%.
      • Frost Shock damage increased by 8%.
      • Primordial Wave now generates 12 Maelstrom (was 3).
      • Primordial Wave damage increased by 500%.
    • Restoration
      • Undermined 2-piece set bonus: Fixed an issue that caused Totemic Projection to apply Insurance! while using Surging Totem.
      • Undermined 2-piece set bonus: Insurance! healing increased by 30%.
  • WARLOCK
    • Demonology
      • All damage increased by 3%.
  • WARRIOR
    • Protection
      • Shield Slam damage reduced by 5%.
      • Colossus: Practiced Strikes’s bonus to Shield Slam and Revenge damage reduced to 10% (was 20%).
      • Colossus: One Against Many reduced to 3% per target (was 5%).
      • Colossus: Tide of Battle reduced to 7% per stack (was 10%).
      • Mountain Thane: Strength of the Mountain’s bonus to Shield Slam damage increased to 15% (was 10%).

Player versus Player

  • Developers’ notes: We’re adding a healing reduction effect to Rated Battlegrounds and Battleground Blitz this week to reduce the potential for stalemates in these modes. This does not affect unrated Battlegrounds. Similarly, 2v2 Arena matches are being drawn out when there’s a healer on both teams, so we’re increasing the starting healing reduction in 2v2 Arena to allow for initial kill opportunities to be viable earlier.
  • All healing done is now reduced by 10% in Rated Battlegrounds and Battleground Blitz.
  • 2v2 Arena matches now start with an additional 10% healing reduction.
  • DEATH KNIGHT
    • Developers’ notes: We’re aiming to improve Death Knight defenses against other melee specializations while increasing the damage of some underperforming abilities.
    • Bloodforged Armor now lasts 4 seconds (was 3 seconds) and reduces Physical damage taken by 25% (was 20%).
    • Soul Reaper’s damage to targets below 35% health increased by 75% in PvP combat.
    • Blood
      • San’layn: Vampiric Strike damage increased by 30% in PvP combat.
    • Unholy
      • San’layn: Vampiric Strike damage increased by 30% in PvP combat.
  • DRUID
    • Balance
      • Developers’ notes: We’re increasing the damage of multiple Balance spells and reducing the spec’s reliance on Harmony of the Grove for burst potential. We’re also looking to increase the spec’s survivability by removing the PvP reduction on Frenzied Regeneration.
      • Moonfire and Sunfire damage increased by 33% in PvP combat.
      • Frenzied Regeneration is no longer reduced by 38% in PvP combat for Balance.
      • Keeper of the Grove: Harmony of the Grove increases spell damage by 4% in PvP combat (was 8%).
    • Feral
      • Tireless Pursuit (PvP Talent) now increases movement speed by 25% (was 40%).
      • Wicked Claws (PvP Talent) now decreases healing received by 16% (was 20%).
    • Restoration
      • Frenzied Regeneration healing is no longer decreased by 50% in PvP combat for Restoration.
  • MAGE
    • Developers’ notes: We’re adding some reductions to the power of Mage mobility and defensives with emphasis on Arcane which is especially tough to chase. Overpowered Barrier is something we’re excited to see used. We feel the 5 second duration is too high to encourage the gameplay we want from this talent, which is for enemies to consider waiting for the barrier to expire to continue attacking. We’re reducing its duration to encourage that. This also reduces its defensive value since it has indeed been a bit overpowered.
    • Overpowered Barrier now causes Barriers to last 4 seconds (was 5 seconds).
    • Barrier Diffusion is now 50% effective in PvP combat.
    • Accumulative Shielding is now 33% effective in PvP combat.
    • Temporal Velocity is now 50% effective in PvP combat.
    • Incantation of Swiftness is now 50% effective in PvP combat.
    • Arcane
      • Chrono Shift now increases movement speed by 10% (was 25%).
      • Spellslinger: Slippery Slinging is now 50% effective in PvP combat.
      • Arcane Surge now increases spell damage by 15% in PvP combat (was 20%).
      • Arcane Surge damage increased by 40% in PvP combat.
    • Frost
      • Spellslinger: Slippery Slinging is now 50% effective in PvP combat.
  • HUNTER
    • Marksmanship
      • Black Arrow damage reduced by 15%.
      • Undermine Class 4-set effectiveness reduced to 25% in PvP combat (was 50%).
  • MONK
    • Windwalker
      • Celestial Conduit healing increased by 50% in PvP combat.
      • Last Emperor’s Capacitor now increases the damage of Crackling Jade Lightning by 300% (was 400%) per stack in PvP combat.
      • Slicing Winds damage decreased by 15% in PvP combat.
    • Mistweaver
      • Developers’ notes: Mistweaver’s general throughput has been lacking since changes to Jade Empowerment and we would like Celestial Conduit to be a more impactful cooldown as its effect can feel lackluster when split between several players in PvP.
      • Mana regeneration is now reduced by 40% in PvP combat (was 50%).
      • Celestial Conduit healing increased by 50% in PvP combat.
      • Vivify healing increased by 25% in PvP combat.
      • Enveloping Mist healing increased by 25% in PvP combat.
      • Renewing Mist’s healing increased by 40% in PvP combat.
  • PALADIN
    • Blinding Light no longer removes damage over time effects from enemy players.
    • Holy
      • Divine Protection now reduces damage taken by an additional 5% in PvP combat.
    • Retribution
      • Developers’ notes: We’re pulling back on a few of Retribution Paladin’s negative PvP multipliers that we no longer feel are necessary.
      • Avenging Wrath now increases damage and healing done by 15% (was 10%) in PvP combat.
      • Blade of Justice damage increased by 20% in PvP combat.
      • Divine Protection now decreases damage taken by 15% in PvP combat (was 10%).
  • PRIEST
    • Discipline
      • Developers’ notes: We’re making some adjustments to Discipline’s emergency healing, set bonus, and would like their mana to be more of a factor in matches.
      • Mana regeneration is now reduced by 45% in PvP combat (was 30%).
      • Evangelism healing reduced by 25% in PvP combat.
      • The healing taken bonus from the Undermine Class 4-set is now 20% effective in PvP combat (was 50%)
    • Holy
      • Developers’ notes: Between these changes and the game-wide changes above, we’re looking to improve sustained healing and mana regeneration for Holy.
      • Mana regeneration is now reduced by 50% in PvP combat (was 65%).
      • Flash Heal healing increased by 8% in PvP combat.
      • Heal healing increased by 8% in PvP combat.
      • Holy Word: Serenity healing increased by 8% in PvP combat.
      • Holy Word: Sanctify healing increased by 8% in PvP combat.
      • Prayer of Mending healing increased by 8% in PvP combat.
  • ROGUE
    • Outlaw
      • Preemptive Maneuver now decreases damage taken by an additional 15% in stuns (was 40%) and reduces the cost of feint by 10% (was 30%) for Outlaw Rogues.
  • SHAMAN
    • Elemental
      • Developers’ notes: We’re increasing Elemental’s sustained single target damage with our changes in the game-wide section, with emphasis on Maelstrom generators. We are also positioning Primordial Wave as a more threatening spell which should allow for more kill opportunities.
      • Stormbringer: Tempest damage increased by 20% in PvP combat.
    • Enhancement
      • Developers’ notes: Our aim is to increase Enhancement’s overall sustained damage while reducing some of its burst. We’re also looking at small increases to uptime and survivability through a targeted Healing Surge and Ice Strike buff.
      • Stormstrike damage increased by 15% in PvP combat.
      • Windstrike damage increased by 15% in PvP combat.
      • Lightning Bolt damage increased by 10% in PvP combat.
      • Chain Lightning damage increased by 10% in PvP combat.
      • Ice Strike damage increased by 10% in PvP combat.
      • Ice Strike now slows enemies by 60% in PvP combat (was 50%).
      • Healing Surge healing increased by 15% in PvP combat.
      • Primordial Storm damage reduced by 15% in PvP combat.
      • Windfury Attack damage reduced by 10% in PvP combat.
      • Stormbringer: Tempest damage increased by 20% in PvP combat.
  • WARLOCK
    • Affliction
      • The Undermine Class 4-set bonus now applies 2 Unstable Afflictions in PvP combat (was 3).
  • WARRIOR
    • Arms
      • Developers’ notes: Execute, Bladestorm, and Demolish have not had the impact we would like from them, so we are increasing their damage.
      • Execute damage increased by 25% in PvP combat.
      • Bladestorm damage increased by 20% in PvP combat.
      • Demolish damage increased by 15% in PvP combat.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Upcoming Class Tuning With Weekly Maintenance - March 25, 2025 started by Lumy View original post
Published on 2025-03-22 12:13 AM
55 Comments
Comments 55 Comments
  1. Daedius's Avatar
    Shadow getting the nerf bat already x.x
  1. Danuel's Avatar
    Oi look - assa rogues are trash again in another patch? What a surprise!
    I don't coming back to this game until they finely rework this spec.
  1. stoffe's Avatar
    Do this mm and Survival buffs means BM is bottom again of all this 3?
  1. Ereb's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuel View Post
    Oi look - assa rogues are trash again in another patch? What a surprise!
    I don't coming back to this game until they finely rework this spec.
    lol ass rogues are middle of the pack at worst, and you have 2 other specs who are damn-near on top so not sure what the whining is about
  1. AleksaMaster's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ereb View Post
    lol ass rogues are middle of the pack at worst, and you have 2 other specs who are damn-near on top so not sure what the whining is about
    What do you mean two other soecs on top? Outlaw is giga bad this season. Its only showing on top in statistics since very low number of people play it and those are mostly very skilled players.
  1. HansOlo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by AleksaMaster View Post
    What do you mean two other soecs on top? Outlaw is giga bad this season. Its only showing on top in statistics since very low number of people play it and those are mostly very skilled players.
    You are wrong.

    Outlaw is absolutely top tier and competing with warriors.

    https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/TWW2_Raid.html

    Sub is mid and with these buffs - assasination is also mid.

    In Mythics - assassination and outlaw is A-tier - same with PvP. Particular assasination will have reserved spot for progression due to debuffs(just like the WW).

    So if everybody plays perfectly and with BiS gear - outlaw will be in top 3 of out 30 something specs(in single target). Outlaw is probably also toptier for cleave fights.

    Rogue in general in terms of numbers - in a pretty good spot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Danuel View Post
    Oi look - assa rogues are trash again in another patch? What a surprise!
    I don't coming back to this game until they finely rework this spec.
    They are not. But please stay away.

    Nothing is worse than casuals reading patch notes with zero clue.
  1. AleksaMaster's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    You are wrong.

    Outlaw is absolutely top tier and competing with warriors.

    https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/TWW2_Raid.html

    Sub is mid and with these buffs - assasination is also mid.

    In Mythics - assassination and outlaw is A-tier - same with PvP. Particular assasination will have reserved spot for progression due to debuffs(just like the WW).

    So if everybody plays perfectly and with BiS gear - outlaw will be in top 3 of out 30 something specs(in single target). Outlaw is probably also toptier for cleave fights.

    Rogue in general in terms of numbers - in a pretty good spot.

    - - - Updated - - -


    They are not. But please stay away.

    Nothing is worse than casuals reading patch notes with zero clue.
    I think you are wrong You cant use simulatiocraft as relevant argument. What is important is what happens in reality, in raids and m+. And as I said if outlaw was played by more people, it would go down in statistics a LOT. Which is true for every spec that has low representation.
  1. Ereb's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by AleksaMaster View Post
    I think you are wrong You cant use simulatiocraft as relevant argument. What is important is what happens in reality, in raids and m+. And as I said if outlaw was played by more people, it would go down in statistics a LOT. Which is true for every spec that has low representation.
    lol sure whatever you say
  1. HansOlo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by AleksaMaster View Post
    I think you are wrong You cant use simulatiocraft as relevant argument. What is important is what happens in reality, in raids and m+. And as I said if outlaw was played by more people, it would go down in statistics a LOT. Which is true for every spec that has low representation.
    But im not wrong.

    Your damage is relative to these numbers. And skillset is also true for every other spec, so that argument is also weak. Simcraft is the most objectively correct data - everything else is flucated around skillset.

    That is why we saw rogues during the world first race. High sim + good players. This also explains 3-4x windwalkers for most fights.
  1. Foolicious's Avatar
    Primordial wave still sucks
  1. AleksaMaster's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    But im not wrong.

    Your damage is relative to these numbers. And skillset is also true for every other spec, so that argument is also weak. Simcraft is the most objectively correct data - everything else is flucated around skillset.

    That is why we saw rogues during the world first race. High sim + good players. This also explains 3-4x windwalkers for most fights.
    Well its not like that. When u have top 50 outlaw in the world playing outlaw then they are playing it to almost full potential so average dmg looks very high. If you add 1000 more average and below average outlaw players then average would look much lower. You see the point? And in WFR we did not have outlaw. Check again please. And regarding simulationcraft you can go play game in sim if u want, but it has nothing to do with reality.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ereb View Post
    lol sure whatever you say
    Its not my problem you dont understand bro
  1. LawfulEvil's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by AleksaMaster View Post
    Well its not like that. When u have top 50 outlaw in the world playing outlaw then they are playing it to almost full potential so average dmg looks very high. If you add 1000 more average and below average outlaw players then average would look much lower. You see the point? And in WFR we did not have outlaw. Check again please. And regarding simulationcraft you can go play game in sim if u want, but it has nothing to do with reality.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Its not my problem you dont understand bro
    Outlaw is literally the top performing spec in mythic raids, the number of players who play it doesn't matter. You can filter by percentiles in Warcraftlogs for real raid data that has nothing to do with sims, real players in real raid encounters - there are top-skilled players in every spec, and Outlaw is outperforming everyone else even amongst the top few players of each spec.

    Reference: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../42?dataset=95

    The fact is that you are wrong, but this is the internet, so you're free to double down on your ignorance. The only one who will suffer from it is you in your daily life anyway.
  1. Skymercy's Avatar
    The one who's handling classes at blizzard must main a shaman. They have been getting so much spotlight recently.
  1. AleksaMaster's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by LawfulEvil View Post
    Outlaw is literally the top performing spec in mythic raids, the number of players who play it doesn't matter. You can filter by percentiles in Warcraftlogs for real raid data that has nothing to do with sims, real players in real raid encounters - there are top-skilled players in every spec, and Outlaw is outperforming everyone else even amongst the top few players of each spec.

    Reference: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../42?dataset=95

    The fact is that you are wrong, but this is the internet, so you're free to double down on your ignorance. The only one who will suffer from it is you in your daily life anyway.
    You still dont understand bro. 95% means top 5% logs for each spec are shown. Outlaw has around 800 parses so thats top 40 outlaw players that are taken into calculation. Compare that with spec that has 15k parses, 5% is 750 top players, so average will still drop compared to outlaw average. So recheck your "facts" please I mean its simple mathematics.
  1. exochaft's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by LawfulEvil View Post
    Outlaw is literally the top performing spec in mythic raids, the number of players who play it doesn't matter. You can filter by percentiles in Warcraftlogs for real raid data that has nothing to do with sims, real players in real raid encounters - there are top-skilled players in every spec, and Outlaw is outperforming everyone else even amongst the top few players of each spec.

    Reference: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../42?dataset=95

    The fact is that you are wrong, but this is the internet, so you're free to double down on your ignorance. The only one who will suffer from it is you in your daily life anyway.
    With having no knowledge of how the fights are in this current raid tier, let me talk about how it usually goes when you see a high performing spec with barely any representation in the logs (or even if it sims well).

    The main issue comes down to the overall package. Finding a class/spec that can perform well on a fight(s) is easy, so you make decisions based upon comp and what they bring to the table. Basically, it comes down to utility: do you bring CDs/buffs that we need, do we need to maintain a balance of ranged/melee, etc. While damage output and reliability is important, that's only one aspect of the entire package. This logic also applies to things like M+. The end result is that if you can find a class that has similar damage output for certain fight profiles who brings more immunities, CDs (some specs/classes have better CDs to line up with specific burst windows), and utility, you're going to pick them over another class with the same damage output but nothing else to offer.

    Another issue is the specific damage profile that a spec brings. Without getting too much into the weeds, sometimes single target damage is way more important than AoE, even on AoE fights. Some classes/specs can be AoE gods but if you aren't making single target or priority target DPS checks, all those numbers don't mean a thing (especially on ST fights). Another aspect is how quickly your AoE damage is applied... it's the stereotypical direct damage versus DoT, but even in those categories you can see varying burst windows. Sometimes your fights require "They need to die ASAP!", so you get AoE damage that can burst it down. Sometimes fights require "They need to die, but we want fire and forget", so you get slower or more passive AoE. Sometimes you have "These targets need to die in a certain order at a certain time while AoEing," so you get AoE classes that priority cleave off a primary target while doing more damage to the priority target. Sometimes it just plain comes down to how spread or where the AoE targets are, which can go against melee cleave/AoE quite ften. Beyond that, there's other aspects to how the damage is done when you min/max a fight that will influence representation of certain classes/specs. I should also add one should be careful looking at log parses for AoE, as it doesn't necessarily account for padding or useless AoE damage (such as cleaving onto adds/bosses that will get healed up and negate the damage, adds that run away and don't need to die, etc.)... pretty common in council fights.

    I guess I should also toss in that ease of execution can also be a factor. Sometimes certain classes have low skill ceilings while others have high skill ceilings. There have been cases where certain specs had amazing DPS potential, but very few people could achieve it. There's also cases where the difference between the floor and ceiling of a spec's potential is really small, making it potentially attractive in terms of consistency when things get hectic or the fights get crazy. It's like the old meme of Feral DPS back in WotLK: you could have amazing damage potential, but executing it was something most people couldn't do.

    I don't want to make a massive post, so I'll say that a long list of contributing factors go into which class/spec you bring to your raid/M+ and what's considered 'viable'. If it sims well, seems like it does good damage in logs, and has super low representation... that usually means it's considered a meme build, the guild/group doesn't have strict requirements or doesn't have a choice other than bringing the class/spec, or it's deficient in terms of immunities/CDs/utility/etc. compared to another class/spec. There's also groups that will take the least popular class/spec and specifically pad logs for ranking purposes (my guilds did that a ton after progression), but it's probably too early for that. Doesn't necessarily mean the class/spec is trash, it just means there's other classes/specs that are better off. Not many guilds have the flexibility to plan around such a spec when they have other options that are popular and available. That's probably the case for Outlaw considering what's been shown... as for the specific reason, I couldn't tell you since I don't know the content of this patch.
  1. LawfulEvil's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    I don't want to make a massive post, so I'll say that a long list of contributing factors go into which class/spec you bring to your raid/M+ and what's considered 'viable'. If it sims well, seems like it does good damage in logs, and has super low representation... that usually means it's considered a meme build, the guild/group doesn't have strict requirements or doesn't have a choice other than bringing the class/spec, or it's deficient in terms of immunities/CDs/utility/etc. compared to another class/spec. Doesn't necessarily mean the class/spec is trash, it just means there's other classes/specs that are better off. Not many guilds have the flexibility to plan around such a spec when they have other options that are popular and available. That's probably the case for Outlaw considering what's been shown... as for the specific reason, I couldn't tell you since I don't know the content of this patch.
    It often just means that it's a more annoying/difficult/unfun spec to play, or just the fantasy is not appealing. The case of Outlaw is not well loved fantasy-wise (most rogue players miss when it was "Combat" and not the pistol flinging thing it became) and it's also a very demanding spec that requires 140+ APM to play flawlessly, and that deters a lot of players, to some it's even physically painful due to wrist/hand fatigue and stress. There are opposite examples, like BM Hunter and Ret Paladin not being the best at anything and largely ignored by the meta for years, and still having a massive representation because they are easy to play and have a strong relatable fantasy for a lot of players. For example, in Season 1, they had about 10x the representation of Enhancement shaman, which was proven and tested the most overpowered DPS spec for the whole tier.

    Damage profile matters, and to a degree, "padding" is often discarded as less important damage (while it's damage that still needs to be done), but in any case, in the link provided, you can filter by individual fights and see that Outlaw is one of the top performing specs, and neck to neck with Sub as the best-performing spec of all rogue specs in single target fights, while also being the class with most variability (lowest DPS vs highest DPS) which is normally a telling sign of two things - the spec is hard to master, and/or heavily reliant on RNG.

    In the end the top players will play what's best, and it literally doesn't matter if 3 million people play Assassin and 7 people play Outlaw. If the top 3 Outlaw pulled better numbers than the top 3 Assassin, then Outlaw performs better than Assassin, it's just that simple. It's likely that Assassin spec is easier to get reliable results with, but the discussion is whether the spec performs well or not, not the % of players who are good enough to play it properly.
  1. Eapoe's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffe View Post
    Do this mm and Survival buffs means BM is bottom again of all this 3?
    You’re better off hanging around in, and asking in, Trueshot Lodge in Discord. Last I saw, and it’s been a day or 2, it’s not able to be simmed yet, but predictions is that the specs are a lot closer together, with SV possibly being lower by a very small amount.
    Think Azor stated BM will probably stay the most popular due to its high mobility and ease of play.
  1. AleksaMaster's Avatar
    But top outlaw players dont do higher dmg than top players from other specs. You only have 1 outlaw player at top on stix fight. So its not the same when you say lets compare top 5 logs from each spec, in which case outlaw sucks. And when you say lets compare top 5% logs for each spec, in which outlaw shines for reason I mentioned before.
  1. Zodiark's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Shadow getting the nerf bat already x.x
    Yeah I don't even get this. Same with MW monks. Let some other classes shine in different areas for a while. Shadow was nice at the beginning of the Xpac then nerfed now they are decent and once again here comes the fun detector. Then what next week. Shadow gets a 2% buff with xyz skills getting buffed...

    Also MW was kinda fun to tinker around with doing world content and solo delves while still having half decent DPS. But can't have that, disc priest crowd might get their panties in a twist.
  1. EverDash's Avatar
    PALADIN
    Holy
    Developers’ notes: Holy Paladin’s throughput has been below our targets so we are combining an overall buff with targeted increases to a few spells we would like to feel particularly more impactful.
    All healing increased by 3%.
    Word of Glory and Eternal Flame healing increased by an additional 20%.
    Light of Dawn healing increased by an additional 20%.
    Holy Prism AoE healing and damage increased by an additional 30%.
    Holy Prism single target healing and damage increased by an additional 50%.
    Shield of the Righteous damage increased by 30%.
    Retribution
    Final Verdict damage increased by 20%.

    -----------------

    its crazy how millions of players saw how bad holy was in the patch notes before it was released as well as instantly when it came out.
    but the developers themselves never saw it and now need to tune things back up.
    its like they have chatGPT making these changes.
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