Combat Philosophy and Addon Disarmament in Midnight
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
As we move into the beta phase of Midnight testing and invite a much larger wave of players in to experience the expansion and provide feedback, I wanted to take time to recap the planned changes to addon capabilities, and the accompanying broader changes to combat and encounters. This will be a long post, but stick with me, there’s a lot to cover.

Over the course of the past year we have been talking about addon changes, but that communication has been spread across multiple videos, posts, interviews, and ongoing conversations with addon authors. This fragmentation has contributed to confusion and concern across the community. The main goal of this article is to dispel as much of this confusion as possible and, hopefully, provide reassurance around these planned changes.

To be clear, it is entirely natural for players who have spent countless hours experiencing Azeroth through the lens of their favorite addons to feel nervous about big changes to that ecosystem. While some players who use few or no addons may be shrugging their shoulders, for many others, this may be the single largest change an expansion has ever made to World of Warcraft. We take none of this lightly.



Addon Disarmament: Why?

So, if we know this is a risky change, why are we making it?

For over twenty years now, the customizability of the World of Warcraft User Interface (UI) has been a pillar of the game, allowing players to use addons to tailor the look and feel of the game to suit their preferences. Numerous improvements to the base UI over the years have been inspired and informed by these community efforts. But the power we give to addon authors has always come with the risk of tools that can distort moment-to-moment gameplay, which has led the development team to restrict addons’ capabilities several times over the years.

In past incidents, we typically were able to address issues by limiting addons’ access to some specific functionality (e.g. addons automatically selecting abilities and targets in the game’s early days, or using player positions and clever math to build “radar” overlays a decade later). This time around, however, the cause for concern is subtler and more pervasive. Over the past few expansions, the community has increasingly shifted from a focus on addons that display information in a particular way, to addons that process that information to drive combat decisions and recommendations. As an RPG with cast times and cooldowns governing most actions, a huge portion of “skill” in WoW has always rested in moment-to-moment decision-making. By its nature, a computer with access to complete information about the current combat state in WoW (allies’ and enemies’ buffs and debuffs, active casts, cooldown state, health, and more) will be able to make the correct decision far faster than any human, and can do so with unerring accuracy.

Such addons move beyond the realm of personal preference, offering an objective advantage in moment-to-moment combat. As a result, players often will be told to download specific addons to improve their class performance, or to defeat a specific encounter. Guilds—or even pickup groups—commonly require the use of specific addons for mid-combat coordination. While we have never designed FOR addons, in the sense of making a specific encounter or class mechanic with the intent that players would write addons to solve a given puzzle, we have inevitably had to design AROUND them for the past several expansions. We have to accept that even in non-cutting-edge content, a majority of players will turn to any available tools to make things easier.

For example, when we design a boss in a Normal or Heroic difficulty raid, we have a tuning target in mind. While we risk causing frustration if we overshoot the mark, when we release an encounter that puts up very little resistance, we often get feedback that the boss was unsatisfying. In a similar vein, when we’re designing a class mechanic, we’re trying to express class fantasy while also offering engaging moment-to-moment gameplay. But with addons instantly solving a raid coordination challenge or collapsing a nuanced combat decision into a simple binary, we would get feedback, supported by data, that our design felt flat. And so we would add an extra layer of complexity to a class mechanic, or tighten an encounter’s tuning to give players less time to react, in order to deliver the level of challenge and engagement that players are expecting. But that shift has left people who prefer not to use these addons at a clear disadvantage, making WoW less approachable in the process.

And so we are looking to level the playing field. The guiding philosophy for our approach is straightforward: Addons should no longer offer a competitive advantage in WoW combat. They should remain as robust tools for aesthetic customization and personalized presentation of information, but they should not be able to make a player more likely to succeed in combat against an encounter or another player. I’ve seen discussion around the word “competitive,” with some understandably noting that they aren’t playing in the MDI or trying to get onto the raid Hall of Fame or arena leaderboards, and wondering why a design shift about “competitive advantage” should apply to them. But the consequences of addons’ impact creep into all facets of the game, and this uneven playing field is experienced by all players, whether someone is trying to defeat Dimensius on Normal difficulty with their friends-and-family guild, trying to get a foothold in Mythic+, or trying to be the best of the best.



Addon Disarmament: What’s Changing?

In pursuing these philosophical goals, we have tried to take a surgical approach that limits addons’ ability to process information, with the least possible impact on their ability to display it. Our engineering team has been regularly sharing updates to the API (short for Application Programming Interface—essentially the functions that addon authors can use to access and manipulate WoW UI data) with addon authors, but a simplified explanation of what we’re changing is as follows: Information about the current combat state is designated as a “secret value” that can be displayed by addons, but not “known” by them. In essence, combat events are in a black box; addons can change the size or shape of the box, and they can paint it a different color, but what they can’t do is look inside the box. So in Midnight, addons can still change the location of your buffs or debuffs, and the size and shape of the associated frames; they can change the size and shape and texture of enemy nameplates and cast bars; and many similar UI elements. But they can’t “know” with certainty whether you or your target have a specific debuff currently active, or what the cooldown of a given ability is.

We debuted our alpha test with the strictest version of this ruleset, wanting to avoid a frustrating cat-and-mouse situation with addon authors pointing out loopholes in our logic and us needing to keep tightening things down to preserve a level playing field. Whereas we have historically disabled all addons in early weeks of expansion alpha testing, this time we invited numerous addon developers to the first wave of our test. We wanted to give them a head start on updating their addons and to hear early feedback on pain points. That input has been invaluable so far and led us to loosen restrictions in numerous areas that were causing needless collateral damage.

Even with this more focused approach, we knew that limiting addons’ ability to parse combat events in real time would have a significant impact on a wide range of popular and benign addons, such as damage meters that offer immediate insight into performance, boss ability timers that have been part of raiding since the very earliest days of WoW, and tools that make the game accessible to players with a range of disabilities. So alongside the “secret values” project, our team has also been working on building up native solutions in many of these areas, as well as creating new API hooks to allow addon authors to access protected information in ways that don’t risk competitive integrity.

We have been rolling out base UI features over the course of the year, and that will continue during Midnight beta:

  • The Legacy of Arathor content update (11.1.7) introduced the Assisted Highlight and One-Button Rotation tools to help players learn new specializations and improve overall accessibility.
  • We implemented an early working version of a Cooldown Manager in the11.1.5 content update, knowing that it needed a lot of iteration but wanting to ensure that we were getting all the needed feedback in a live environment; Midnight will feature a much-refined version.
  • Midnight includes a new Boss Warnings system which allows players to see which boss mechanics are upcoming, while leaving the choice of how to handle them in players’ hands.
  • We are in the process of adding a range of native accessibility improvements, such as a built-in Combat Audio Alerts system that allows players to use Text to Speech and other audio cues for everything from player health to common combat events.
  • Over the course of beta, we will be releasing improvements to our raid frames for healers, a built-in Damage Meters tool with server-side validation, and more.

While we work on limiting the ability of addons to give a high-end performance advantage, we want to ensure that the baseline WoW experience is as approachable and accessible as ever.

We know that if we are limiting addons’ functionality, we need to give all players the information they need to succeed, and we need to tune our game accordingly. Along with much clearer visual and audio telegraphs, that may also mean having an extra second or two to react to a mechanic, or fewer things occurring simultaneously to keep cognitive load manageable. Our end goal is for any given piece of content in Midnight (a Mythic 10 dungeon, a Normal difficulty raid boss, a Tier 8 Delve, etc.) to be roughly as challenging as it was in prior expansions, but for that challenge to be more fairly distributed across the playerbase.



Why Are Some Cosmetic Addons Breaking?

I’d like to take a moment to address a technical nuance here: Many players have expressed confusion at seeing reports of some popular cosmetic addons no longer functioning as expected in Midnight. If we are only focusing on combat calculations, why are we seemingly breaking an addon that only changes the appearance of player and target frames? That is never our intent, but there are a few reasons why that might be the case currently in Midnight test builds.

The myriad authors who have created addons for WoW over the years have each chosen from among countless different approaches to structuring their code. As a result, two addons that provide nearly identical player-facing functionality might be quite dissimilar under the hood, and thus be affected very differently by the changes coming in Midnight. Some addons can and will work just fine in Midnight, but they have yet to be updated by their author; the work that they need to do may be very straightforward or may take a more significant amount of time. Every expansion in WoW’s history has required tweaks to all but the simplest of addons (thus the “out of date addons” popup with each new major patch). Other addons, however, rely on implementations that don’t merely re-skin pieces of the WoW UI, but rather rebuild them from scratch using raw data about the current combat state. Unfortunately, that particular approach (while by no means inherently wrong) has limitations under our new “secret values” system. While there are some areas where we cannot bypass these limitations without opening the door to computational logic, we are trying to do everything possible to minimize collateral damage. For example, recognizing that many players enjoy abstract and custom ways of representing their current count of Runes on a Death Knight, or Holy Power on a Paladin, we recently made all class secondary resources fully non-secret.

We are committed to continuing to work with addon developers and with the community at large to provide support for robust customization within this new framework.



Addon Disarmament: Why Now?

Another common question I’ve heard is: Why do this now? Why not wait until all our built-in functionality is fully polished and has had multiple rounds of feedback?

When I first started talking about our concerns with the impact of addons on the modern game nearly a year ago, we were still evaluating the feasibility of a solution, as well as the right timeframe. But we also wanted to gauge community sentiment around the general issue. WoW’s history is littered with examples of the dev team trying to solve perceived “problems” that most players weren’t particularly concerned about, and we wanted to reassure ourselves that we weren’t headed down that same path here. We were happy to see a lot of positive reactions to the discussion. I’m not going to pretend that there was unanimous support, but the average take was something along the lines of, “It would be great if addons weren’t required, but I’m not sure I trust Blizzard to pull it off.” And that’s very fair—this is a huge and challenging project, and I don’t expect blind faith in the absence of results.

Convinced that we were on the right track with the aims of the project, we shifted to building a roadmap of what it would take to pull off this transformation. The team found that progress on the UI engineering front was moving faster than expected, both in terms of the “secret values” system, and in terms of implementing some of the replacements we knew we’d need. That made readiness for the launch of Midnight a real possibility.

These changes pretty much have to be made on an expansion boundary, allowing us to build a full slate of content and systems that are meant for a post-addon-disarmament world. Trying to ask players to relearn content mid-expansion without the tools they were using the day before would be a sure recipe for unhappiness. And no matter how much we improve our native UI, we can’t build mechanics that are trivially solvable by addons and expect that players won’t use those tools so long as they still function.

In the end, we were faced with the decision of either signing up for a couple more years of designing our content around powerful addons in ways that make it impossible for us to serve our whole community, or moving forward now and finding solutions within this new paradigm. And so addon disarmament is coming with Midnight, and the team is fully committed to giving the community all the support required, tweaking the logic around what is restricted, and making new access points available to addon developers, in order to make this transition successful.



Addon Disarmament: What’s Next?

As we kick off beta, we’re excited to see a ton of new players get access to Midnight content, but we’re especially eager to see structured testing of the endgame. The changes to addons don’t come in a vacuum; they are complemented by a new approach to building raid encounters, dungeon pulls, combat mechanics, and more. So we are looking forward to seeing players have that holistic experience, and we are looking for feedback not just on our UI or evolving addon capabilities, but on aspects of endgame combat that might feel unclear or unfair without some of the tools you are accustomed to using.

We’re going to be watching closely and listening to feedback throughout the beta. To us, the “Beta” designation means that we have the entirety of the game’s content ready for testing, but it is far from an endpoint to Midnight development. We will be agile and adaptive in close partnership with our community as we roll out regular updates in the weeks and months ahead, improving our base UI experience, adjusting tuning or presentation of mechanics, and adding new functionality for addon developers.

Thank you for taking the time to read through this. I understand that this amount of change can be scary, and that it’s natural to worry that the long-term benefits aren’t worth the short-term disruption. We’re going to do everything possible to ensure that your experience with Midnight is a great one, that customization and self-expression remain hallmarks of WoW’s UI, and that the game is more approachable than ever.

Ion Hazzikostas
Game Director



Read through our previous article How Midnight’s Upcoming Game Changes Will Impact Combat Addons for additional insights.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Combat Philosophy and Addon Disarmament in Midnight started by Lumy View original post
Comments 99 Comments
  1. Duese's Avatar
    Everything that Blizzard is doing with addons is completely ridiculous and if you actually support these changes, you really don't understand the problem.

    Addons have always been a RESPONSE to Blizzard's design choices. What this means is that Blizzard has ALWAYS been in control of their own game regardless of anything that addons could do. Even the most egregious addons were in RESPONSE to the poor design decisions that were made by Blizzard. People don't seek out addons to fix problems that don't exist. Addons are bandaids for class design or encounter design problems. Blizzard has consistently failed at making better classes and encounters and players responded to their failures with addons being used as bandaids.

    Let's explain this a bit further just in case the "blame addons" crowd needs more. The worst and most egregious usage of an addon would be something like Method vs Archimonde where a circle popped up on the screen showing you where all of the beams were going to go. (Here is the video.) Now, since you are a "blame addons" person, you are probably screaming about how this is cheating or whatever, but let's remember that addons were a RESPONSE to bad design. Look at the mechanic itself. When people complain about how bad the UI is for informing players of mechanics, this is a very clear example of that bad design. You have 20 players, 18 of which get beams. The beams do not telegraph. Look at the screen in the video at any player that isn't standing right next to the main character and you can't see the arrows. Any player that is on the other side of the boss, you can't see the arrows because the boss is in the way. If there are ground effects happening, you can't see the arrow especially if the ground effects are yellow or green which ALL of them are in the Archimonde fight.

    The end result is you have a poorly designed mechanic that ultimately relies on LUCK rather than skill to dodge the mechanics. This is not how you should design a mechanic in the fight.

    Now, let's look at a more modern version of this same mechanic and highlight how even if we had an addon, we wouldn't need it because the design of the mechanic doesn't need it. The current raid uses beam mechanics in numerous different fights, but let's look specifically at the Nexus King since it's an easy example. Similar to the Archimonde fight, players get beams on them which must be targeted while also having the rest of the raid dodge them. The visual of the mechanic is very easy to see and makes for the challenge reacting to the mechanic instead of getting lucky. This is how encounter design and mechanic design can be done to avoid players seeking out addons in the first place.

    Shifting gears, let's look at class design because the same problem can be found here. Look at arcane mage right now. If you want to play arcane mage effectively, you have to track 5 different buffs which all determine what your next cast is. The current UI, even using the new cooldown manager, makes it incredibly hard to track those buffs. You have 20+ different buffs active in your buff bar that you somehow need to parse through every 1.5 seconds to determine which spell you are going to cast. This is bad class design. This is why people responded by utilizing addons.

    In every case where combat addons are being used, it's done in response to the poor design of the class or the encounters. Blizzard caused the problem and now instead of them admitting they caused it, they are blaming addons. At any point in time over the past 20 years, they could have improved their class or encounter designs to avoid the reliance on addons. Arguably, most of their raid encounters are much better and less reliant on things like DBM directly with DBM taking more of a skinning role than an informing role. Where they've made improvements with their encounter design, that has come alongside regressive and overly complex class design.

    The correct course of action Blizzard should have made is the one that they told us they were going to do and then lied straight to our faces about it. Again, everything they've done around this topic has been just stupid and shortsighted. Build out the default UI. Fix the class design. Then guess what happens? People stop seeking addons because addons are there to solve a problem.

    Instead of doing that though, they are treating the playerbase like shit. Aside from lying to us, they are basically making us beg to get back to even a shred of what we had before. We've had damage meters since vanilla and they've become progressively better and better throughout that time. Details right now is amazing with the information that it provides to us at our fingertips. The new blizzard damage meter gives us 2% of the information that details does. How does that make the game better? I want someone to tell me how killing an addon that literally just provides a way to review your encounter breakdown in game and replacing it with something that an intern threw together on a weekend is making the game better.

    If you still don't understand why Blizzard is completely wrong on this, then let's give a comparison to show just how big this is. The changes they are making to addons is the equivalent to removing transmog from the game and then giving players a choice of 4-6 transmog sets to use and some of those transmog sets don't even have all the pieces. That's what is happening with this addon change. It's completely destroyed our ability to customize our UI in any meaningful way. It's reduced our choices of what we can do with the UI down to a couple of really shitty replacements that don't even have some of the most basic functionality that we would want.

    Now, if you are still thinking that Blizzard is making a good decision here, I don't know what to tell you because you have to literally ignore everything and blindly believe Blizzard. The most frustrating thing is listening to casual players who don't have a clue what addons even do claim that addons play the game for people. If you've ever said that or anything like that, then roll your hand into a fist and punch yourself in the face.

    If anyone has any actual arguments to support why addons should be removed, I'd love to hear them but I've been asking this same question for months now and I haven't gotten a single even close to reasonable answer.
  1. SoleQueen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Spearhawk1969 View Post
    again I have to object, it is not the combat addons that is the point, it is how its affecting addons like Elvui, thats simply there for UI changes, nothing to do with combat, thats bother me, I don't use, never have used combat addons to enhance my gameplay. Those who say that combat addons are needed or that the persons complaining needs combat addons are wrong, it is the ability to have my buttons where I want them, get rid of all bloat Blizzard puts around character and targets etc, sleek and good, thats what I want, the rest that needs combat addons...let them speak for themselves.
    UI addons are basically unaffected they just need to be tweaked so they are using blizzards default UI as a base instead of trying to create their own frames from the ground up. Because that's the reality of what they do, and now that they can't they claim that they are "Unable to give people the experience they want" The real reason they are stopping is because it's a protest against blizzard. They truly believe that if they kick up enough dust and create a shit storm of players complaining about addons blizzard will revert a lot of the changes.

    But Blizzard is standing firm and people like you cry because you don't realise that ElvUI will come back once they realise their protest didn't do anything. And if they don't there will be new addons that achieve essentially the same results. Heck the blizzard UI can literally almost do everything it can on the beta, it's just a little uglier... But it can all be skinned so the problem is moot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    Everything that Blizzard is doing with addons is completely ridiculous and if you actually support these changes, you really don't understand the problem.
    I ain't reading all that but based on beta everything seems pretty good to me.. . I think maybe you're the one that doesn't understand what exactly they are doing with addons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    ...and some of that functionality is, under current API, forbidden. Also, in the very post we're discussing, Ion comments on why some addons don't want to work in the current environment, even though they don't do anything "illlegal" - it depends on how are they written. This is to say that the huge part of ElvUI could still work in "Midnight", but the addon developers are not willing to: 1) resign of some of the functionality; 2) rewrite the addon under the new paradigm. Maybe it's too much work; maybe they don't want to accept the change; maybe it's a bit of both.

    It's unfortunate, but I don't see how Blizzard is to be blamed. Should it be Blizzard submitting to addon developers will, or the other way around?
    The developers of ElvUI are being stupid and stubborn as a form of protest, they will eventually cave and release a new UI called something else so they can say "We stopped developing elvUI because of blizzard" while letting people download an almost identical version of the addon rewritten from the ground up minus the things they can't do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    While I won't say the community doesn't affect the issue, this is still mostly a Blizz-inflicted issue. They've admitted to it in the past, when they could've nipped the addon issue in the bud early on but decided around WotLK to design raids with combat addons in mind. So while the players made the addons to min-max their top-end raiding experience, Blizz supported and designed their content around this decision by the players.

    Unfortunately, by Blizz designing around the combat addons the content got to the point where you needed the addons to feasibly do the content. Now what do I mean by feasibly? In order to achieve the same results for the same difficulty of content over time, addons because more necessary to avoid an increase in time and effort. Notice I didn't say it was impossible to do the content without addons; aside from a couple scenarios where it may have been near-impossible, all the content could be done without addons... if you didn't mind putting in a TON of extra time and effort for everyone to learn the fights.

    While some might say that the top-end was the only content affected by such a design philosophy, even Blizz knows that isn't true. Top-end content of the current day WoW is waaaaaaay harder than the top-end content of the past, but also the mid/low-range content is way harder now than it used to be. Some people like to attribute this change being due to people getting better at the game and having more knowledge, but it's also largely due to combat add-ons requiring the content to get harder to maintain some semblence of difficult. However, that also means if you didn't use combat addons, you technically weren't playing the game 'right' because the content was designed around the assumption they were being used.

    After reading through the blue post, I do think it does reflection some of the truth behind the changes being made now. I'm not saying the post is lying (I don't think it is), but I don't think it's the full truth either. I think retention and getting new players into the game is one of the larger, if not the largest, motivations to make such a change. The more effort you have to put in on the user end to have a satisfying and an 'as intended' experience, the less likely you're going to get fresh blood into your game. You'll be able to keep a niche audience no matter what, but that's not what Blizz wants in the long term. Again, I think this is mostly Blizz's fault and not the players, so they're reaping what they've sown over years and years of design decisions and policy changes.
    The thing people are still missing throughout all of this crying about addons is that future encounters will be designed without addons in mind and I think this is where the dooming should stop. If encounters are designed for us to be using base UI.. It doesn't matter that we wont have addons

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan1mcq View Post
    If i were a shot caller at blizzard i would have done my best to recruit the authors and teams behind WeakAuras, ElvUI, Plater, DBM/BigWigs and Details. Have them move with their families to California and set them up with homes and and hard to refuse salaries. These guys would be the new wow ui team going forward and have them create a brand new UI. With all those guys working together you can bet your bottom dollar you would have gotten the best UI of any MMO ever made, period.
    Considering how many people despise weakauras and ElvUI I highly disagree. Besides they don't want our UI to solve problems for us, that's the entire issue they are addressing with these changes in the first place. Also, most of those addons are really inefficient and you would not have gotten anything even close to their actual functionality.
  1. Doffen's Avatar
    Sounds good to me. I like the idea that I can be in a raid and know that the damage dealer besides me doesnt have that 5-7% advantage
  1. noctim2's Avatar
    I see where they are coming from and also Duese here as some valid points. As heroic raiders, my guild used some available tools at a given time to make encounters more accessible. I don't think that we will suffer too much from this decisions, because we rarely use specific combat altering addons. I am more concerned about my personal data I/O. I use button timers and weakaura for over a decade and got absolutely used to to visual input that *helps* me finding the right decisions for my rotation. It doesn't actually play the game for me so there is still enough room for me to tank my gameplay.
  1. Piando's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    Let's explain this a bit further just in case the "blame addons" crowd needs more. The worst and most egregious usage of an addon would be something like Method vs Archimonde where a circle popped up on the screen showing you where all of the beams were going to go. (Here is the video.) Now, since you are a "blame addons" person, you are probably screaming about how this is cheating or whatever, but let's remember that addons were a RESPONSE to bad design. Look at the mechanic itself. When people complain about how bad the UI is for informing players of mechanics, this is a very clear example of that bad design. You have 20 players, 18 of which get beams. The beams do not telegraph. Look at the screen in the video at any player that isn't standing right next to the main character and you can't see the arrows. Any player that is on the other side of the boss, you can't see the arrows because the boss is in the way. If there are ground effects happening, you can't see the arrow especially if the ground effects are yellow or green which ALL of them are in the Archimonde fight.

    The end result is you have a poorly designed mechanic that ultimately relies on LUCK rather than skill to dodge the mechanics. This is not how you should design a mechanic in the fight.
    You should look at Paragon vs Archimonde to see how to beautifully execute that mechanic without a radar.
  1. Just Passing through's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezolacer View Post
    "So, if we know this is a risky change, why are we making it?"

    It's not. This should've happened a long time ago. Nobody ever needed this roadblock on their way to begin with. All the raid helpers, dps meters and all of that should have been built in the game interface with you just having to toggle it when entering a raid zone. This is beyond stupid that some people will go out of their way to argue against it so vigorously.
    I agree - To me it was when WeakAura released that I thought how complicated mechanics had obviously become to make such an addon "necessary" - Mind you...I found that addon so confusing that I quickly uninstalled it. Then again, I don't do any content on a level, where I would be required to use it and if we go back to "simpler times" I am all for it. But yeah....it might as well have happened years ago.
  1. Lahis's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Spearhawk1969 View Post
    again I have to object, it is not the combat addons that is the point, it is how its affecting addons like Elvui, thats simply there for UI changes, nothing to do with combat, thats bother me, I don't use, never have used combat addons to enhance my gameplay. Those who say that combat addons are needed or that the persons complaining needs combat addons are wrong, it is the ability to have my buttons where I want them, get rid of all bloat Blizzard puts around character and targets etc, sleek and good, thats what I want, the rest that needs combat addons...let them speak for themselves.
    Too bad player health and mana are combat information and thus every unitframe addon needed to be killed too.
  1. Yrelen's Avatar
    With this no-addon move, they will lose lots of raiders and M+ players.

    I already know about people who don't buy the expansion until Blizzard steps away from focking up the playerbase made addons.
    With so many mechanics and visual cancers, raids and M+ will be exponentially harder.

    There are two reasons they are removing addons right now:
    - to force people to invest and waste even more time in the game,
    - and for console integration.

    There is nothing beneficial for the customers to remove visual and sound aid addons for the mentally challenged.

    Do this fight without addons:
  1. Geckoo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrelen View Post
    Do this fight without addons
    The key is to design that fight without addons.

    Don't get me wrong, i don't trust them blindly, but i do applaud the intention behind the change. And if they fail, well... it's their loss, both in trust and customers. It's just a game, just move on and have fun somewhere else if this one fails to deliver.
  1. Yrelen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    And if they fail, well... it's their loss, both in trust and customers. It's just a game; just move on and have fun somewhere else if this one fails to deliver.
    Millions have moved on. Since Ulduar, they have only failed at every aspect of the game.
  1. Echeyakee's Avatar
    Boo hoo, you design bad fights and blame it on addons, but in reality addons are the response to your bad design. Obviously if you make a normal boss require near instantaneous reaction to a mechanic from most of the raid, to the point where it's a challenge to execute even if everyone is on voip people will look for a simple solution, like an addon or a weakaura that will coordinate that. Especially in a pug, where getting people to join voip is harder than getting a straight answer from a politician. Grow up.
  1. Valysar's Avatar
    Ion being Ion, shifting the blame onto the players and addons rather than themselves.
    Typical
  1. Biomega's Avatar
    I'm sure the 10+ years of saved dev time on improving the UI that you didn't have to invest because addons existed to just give people whatever UI they want are something you're totally unhappy about.

    I get their argument, I really do, but it just feels so rough to hear them go "so you see, players made addons to solve problems we were responsible for..." and now turn that around on us and reassure everyone that really, they've got it under control and if some people suffer in the meantime well, that's just a sacrifice they're willing to make.

    Good for you, Blizzard. I'll be watching with bated breath to see how it turns out. From the sidelines, of course. Fuck if I'm giving you money for this.
  1. freeplayer's Avatar
    They should remain as robust tools for aesthetic customization and personalized presentation of information, but they should not be able to make a player more likely to succeed in combat against an encounter or another player.
    the problem is that a "aesthetic customization and personalized presentation of information" can make a player more likely to succeed in combat. Dismantle all the addons based on COMBAT_LOG_EVENT is fair, but breaking all the SecureFrame and macro conditionals stuff would be a "stop wow" for me.
  1. Yrelen's Avatar
    If I am already here. Here is my own example from 4 weeks ago:
    We were progressing HC Fractilus.

    The first 11 wipes were because 7 people out of the 19 could not position the walls where there was still space for them.
    The guild leader forced them to download an addon that tells where to go with the walls, so they don't put 3 walls at once on the same line...
    After that, only 2 of them failed. Addons are a huge help for those who are not smart enough.

    And you could say, "They did not need to do raids." Well, here is the kicker, they are the soul of the guild, cracking jokes and making us not stare at the screen silently for 2 hours.
    SO if we kick them from the raid for a few weeks, no one will log in to do any raiding with time...
  1. loras's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrelen View Post
    If I am already here. Here is my own example from 4 weeks ago:
    We were progressing HC Fractilus.

    The first 11 wipes were because 7 people out of the 19 could not position the walls where there was still space for them.
    The guild leader forced them to download an addon that tells where to go with the walls, so they don't put 3 walls at once on the same line...
    After that, only 2 of them failed. Addons are a huge help for those who are not smart enough.

    And you could say, "They did not need to do raids." Well, here is the kicker, they are the soul of the guild, cracking jokes and making us not stare at the screen silently for 2 hours.
    SO if we kick them from the raid for a few weeks, no one will log in to do any raiding with time...
    The point is to make addons obsolete, if it requires that much external coordination thar it requires addons then it is not fit for the game.
  1. wildstar77's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Sounds good to me. I like the idea that I can be in a raid and know that the damage dealer besides me doesnt have that 5-7% advantage
    100%! This right here. As someone who really only uses details and not many weak auras, knowing we will all be on a relatively even playing field is so nice.
  1. vincink's Avatar
    I appreciate this change. Hopefully it will push the raid scene back to the philosophy of communicating before and during the fight about the fight itself (and not add-ons) as well as requiring everyone (or at least the leaders) to read up on guides. And being unafraid to try, try again. Ahn'Qiraj was very frustrating but rewarding when I was a part of a casual raiding guild back in the day. It was much more satisfying to work a raid together over teamspeak over the course of 2 to 3 days.
  1. meroes's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by vincink View Post
    I appreciate this change. Hopefully it will push the raid scene back to the philosophy of communicating before and during the fight about the fight itself (and not add-ons) as well as requiring everyone (or at least the leaders) to read up on guides. And being unafraid to try, try again. Ahn'Qiraj was very frustrating but rewarding when I was a part of a casual raiding guild back in the day. It was much more satisfying to work a raid together over teamspeak over the course of 2 to 3 days.
    Oh you mean back when we needed third party programs to communicate, third party addons like DPS meters, KTM threat meter, raid frames, and everything else? You can point to specific fights that spawned addons, all the way back to early Vanilla.
  1. Biomega's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by vincink View Post
    I appreciate this change. Hopefully it will push the raid scene back to the philosophy of communicating before and during the fight about the fight itself (and not add-ons) as well as requiring everyone (or at least the leaders) to read up on guides. And being unafraid to try, try again. Ahn'Qiraj was very frustrating but rewarding when I was a part of a casual raiding guild back in the day. It was much more satisfying to work a raid together over teamspeak over the course of 2 to 3 days.
    2005 is not coming back. Even if they designed fights like it's 2005. Gaming is different, people are different.

    The removal of addons is not going to usher in some kind of new Golden Age of WoW. It'll strip away things - verdict's out on whether that will be good or bad. But it won't go back to how it once was, before the Weak Aura nation attacked. That is not happening.

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