Combat Philosophy and Addon Disarmament in Midnight
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
As we move into the beta phase of Midnight testing and invite a much larger wave of players in to experience the expansion and provide feedback, I wanted to take time to recap the planned changes to addon capabilities, and the accompanying broader changes to combat and encounters. This will be a long post, but stick with me, there’s a lot to cover.

Over the course of the past year we have been talking about addon changes, but that communication has been spread across multiple videos, posts, interviews, and ongoing conversations with addon authors. This fragmentation has contributed to confusion and concern across the community. The main goal of this article is to dispel as much of this confusion as possible and, hopefully, provide reassurance around these planned changes.

To be clear, it is entirely natural for players who have spent countless hours experiencing Azeroth through the lens of their favorite addons to feel nervous about big changes to that ecosystem. While some players who use few or no addons may be shrugging their shoulders, for many others, this may be the single largest change an expansion has ever made to World of Warcraft. We take none of this lightly.



Addon Disarmament: Why?

So, if we know this is a risky change, why are we making it?

For over twenty years now, the customizability of the World of Warcraft User Interface (UI) has been a pillar of the game, allowing players to use addons to tailor the look and feel of the game to suit their preferences. Numerous improvements to the base UI over the years have been inspired and informed by these community efforts. But the power we give to addon authors has always come with the risk of tools that can distort moment-to-moment gameplay, which has led the development team to restrict addons’ capabilities several times over the years.

In past incidents, we typically were able to address issues by limiting addons’ access to some specific functionality (e.g. addons automatically selecting abilities and targets in the game’s early days, or using player positions and clever math to build “radar” overlays a decade later). This time around, however, the cause for concern is subtler and more pervasive. Over the past few expansions, the community has increasingly shifted from a focus on addons that display information in a particular way, to addons that process that information to drive combat decisions and recommendations. As an RPG with cast times and cooldowns governing most actions, a huge portion of “skill” in WoW has always rested in moment-to-moment decision-making. By its nature, a computer with access to complete information about the current combat state in WoW (allies’ and enemies’ buffs and debuffs, active casts, cooldown state, health, and more) will be able to make the correct decision far faster than any human, and can do so with unerring accuracy.

Such addons move beyond the realm of personal preference, offering an objective advantage in moment-to-moment combat. As a result, players often will be told to download specific addons to improve their class performance, or to defeat a specific encounter. Guilds—or even pickup groups—commonly require the use of specific addons for mid-combat coordination. While we have never designed FOR addons, in the sense of making a specific encounter or class mechanic with the intent that players would write addons to solve a given puzzle, we have inevitably had to design AROUND them for the past several expansions. We have to accept that even in non-cutting-edge content, a majority of players will turn to any available tools to make things easier.

For example, when we design a boss in a Normal or Heroic difficulty raid, we have a tuning target in mind. While we risk causing frustration if we overshoot the mark, when we release an encounter that puts up very little resistance, we often get feedback that the boss was unsatisfying. In a similar vein, when we’re designing a class mechanic, we’re trying to express class fantasy while also offering engaging moment-to-moment gameplay. But with addons instantly solving a raid coordination challenge or collapsing a nuanced combat decision into a simple binary, we would get feedback, supported by data, that our design felt flat. And so we would add an extra layer of complexity to a class mechanic, or tighten an encounter’s tuning to give players less time to react, in order to deliver the level of challenge and engagement that players are expecting. But that shift has left people who prefer not to use these addons at a clear disadvantage, making WoW less approachable in the process.

And so we are looking to level the playing field. The guiding philosophy for our approach is straightforward: Addons should no longer offer a competitive advantage in WoW combat. They should remain as robust tools for aesthetic customization and personalized presentation of information, but they should not be able to make a player more likely to succeed in combat against an encounter or another player. I’ve seen discussion around the word “competitive,” with some understandably noting that they aren’t playing in the MDI or trying to get onto the raid Hall of Fame or arena leaderboards, and wondering why a design shift about “competitive advantage” should apply to them. But the consequences of addons’ impact creep into all facets of the game, and this uneven playing field is experienced by all players, whether someone is trying to defeat Dimensius on Normal difficulty with their friends-and-family guild, trying to get a foothold in Mythic+, or trying to be the best of the best.



Addon Disarmament: What’s Changing?

In pursuing these philosophical goals, we have tried to take a surgical approach that limits addons’ ability to process information, with the least possible impact on their ability to display it. Our engineering team has been regularly sharing updates to the API (short for Application Programming Interface—essentially the functions that addon authors can use to access and manipulate WoW UI data) with addon authors, but a simplified explanation of what we’re changing is as follows: Information about the current combat state is designated as a “secret value” that can be displayed by addons, but not “known” by them. In essence, combat events are in a black box; addons can change the size or shape of the box, and they can paint it a different color, but what they can’t do is look inside the box. So in Midnight, addons can still change the location of your buffs or debuffs, and the size and shape of the associated frames; they can change the size and shape and texture of enemy nameplates and cast bars; and many similar UI elements. But they can’t “know” with certainty whether you or your target have a specific debuff currently active, or what the cooldown of a given ability is.

We debuted our alpha test with the strictest version of this ruleset, wanting to avoid a frustrating cat-and-mouse situation with addon authors pointing out loopholes in our logic and us needing to keep tightening things down to preserve a level playing field. Whereas we have historically disabled all addons in early weeks of expansion alpha testing, this time we invited numerous addon developers to the first wave of our test. We wanted to give them a head start on updating their addons and to hear early feedback on pain points. That input has been invaluable so far and led us to loosen restrictions in numerous areas that were causing needless collateral damage.

Even with this more focused approach, we knew that limiting addons’ ability to parse combat events in real time would have a significant impact on a wide range of popular and benign addons, such as damage meters that offer immediate insight into performance, boss ability timers that have been part of raiding since the very earliest days of WoW, and tools that make the game accessible to players with a range of disabilities. So alongside the “secret values” project, our team has also been working on building up native solutions in many of these areas, as well as creating new API hooks to allow addon authors to access protected information in ways that don’t risk competitive integrity.

We have been rolling out base UI features over the course of the year, and that will continue during Midnight beta:

  • The Legacy of Arathor content update (11.1.7) introduced the Assisted Highlight and One-Button Rotation tools to help players learn new specializations and improve overall accessibility.
  • We implemented an early working version of a Cooldown Manager in the11.1.5 content update, knowing that it needed a lot of iteration but wanting to ensure that we were getting all the needed feedback in a live environment; Midnight will feature a much-refined version.
  • Midnight includes a new Boss Warnings system which allows players to see which boss mechanics are upcoming, while leaving the choice of how to handle them in players’ hands.
  • We are in the process of adding a range of native accessibility improvements, such as a built-in Combat Audio Alerts system that allows players to use Text to Speech and other audio cues for everything from player health to common combat events.
  • Over the course of beta, we will be releasing improvements to our raid frames for healers, a built-in Damage Meters tool with server-side validation, and more.

While we work on limiting the ability of addons to give a high-end performance advantage, we want to ensure that the baseline WoW experience is as approachable and accessible as ever.

We know that if we are limiting addons’ functionality, we need to give all players the information they need to succeed, and we need to tune our game accordingly. Along with much clearer visual and audio telegraphs, that may also mean having an extra second or two to react to a mechanic, or fewer things occurring simultaneously to keep cognitive load manageable. Our end goal is for any given piece of content in Midnight (a Mythic 10 dungeon, a Normal difficulty raid boss, a Tier 8 Delve, etc.) to be roughly as challenging as it was in prior expansions, but for that challenge to be more fairly distributed across the playerbase.



Why Are Some Cosmetic Addons Breaking?

I’d like to take a moment to address a technical nuance here: Many players have expressed confusion at seeing reports of some popular cosmetic addons no longer functioning as expected in Midnight. If we are only focusing on combat calculations, why are we seemingly breaking an addon that only changes the appearance of player and target frames? That is never our intent, but there are a few reasons why that might be the case currently in Midnight test builds.

The myriad authors who have created addons for WoW over the years have each chosen from among countless different approaches to structuring their code. As a result, two addons that provide nearly identical player-facing functionality might be quite dissimilar under the hood, and thus be affected very differently by the changes coming in Midnight. Some addons can and will work just fine in Midnight, but they have yet to be updated by their author; the work that they need to do may be very straightforward or may take a more significant amount of time. Every expansion in WoW’s history has required tweaks to all but the simplest of addons (thus the “out of date addons” popup with each new major patch). Other addons, however, rely on implementations that don’t merely re-skin pieces of the WoW UI, but rather rebuild them from scratch using raw data about the current combat state. Unfortunately, that particular approach (while by no means inherently wrong) has limitations under our new “secret values” system. While there are some areas where we cannot bypass these limitations without opening the door to computational logic, we are trying to do everything possible to minimize collateral damage. For example, recognizing that many players enjoy abstract and custom ways of representing their current count of Runes on a Death Knight, or Holy Power on a Paladin, we recently made all class secondary resources fully non-secret.

We are committed to continuing to work with addon developers and with the community at large to provide support for robust customization within this new framework.



Addon Disarmament: Why Now?

Another common question I’ve heard is: Why do this now? Why not wait until all our built-in functionality is fully polished and has had multiple rounds of feedback?

When I first started talking about our concerns with the impact of addons on the modern game nearly a year ago, we were still evaluating the feasibility of a solution, as well as the right timeframe. But we also wanted to gauge community sentiment around the general issue. WoW’s history is littered with examples of the dev team trying to solve perceived “problems” that most players weren’t particularly concerned about, and we wanted to reassure ourselves that we weren’t headed down that same path here. We were happy to see a lot of positive reactions to the discussion. I’m not going to pretend that there was unanimous support, but the average take was something along the lines of, “It would be great if addons weren’t required, but I’m not sure I trust Blizzard to pull it off.” And that’s very fair—this is a huge and challenging project, and I don’t expect blind faith in the absence of results.

Convinced that we were on the right track with the aims of the project, we shifted to building a roadmap of what it would take to pull off this transformation. The team found that progress on the UI engineering front was moving faster than expected, both in terms of the “secret values” system, and in terms of implementing some of the replacements we knew we’d need. That made readiness for the launch of Midnight a real possibility.

These changes pretty much have to be made on an expansion boundary, allowing us to build a full slate of content and systems that are meant for a post-addon-disarmament world. Trying to ask players to relearn content mid-expansion without the tools they were using the day before would be a sure recipe for unhappiness. And no matter how much we improve our native UI, we can’t build mechanics that are trivially solvable by addons and expect that players won’t use those tools so long as they still function.

In the end, we were faced with the decision of either signing up for a couple more years of designing our content around powerful addons in ways that make it impossible for us to serve our whole community, or moving forward now and finding solutions within this new paradigm. And so addon disarmament is coming with Midnight, and the team is fully committed to giving the community all the support required, tweaking the logic around what is restricted, and making new access points available to addon developers, in order to make this transition successful.



Addon Disarmament: What’s Next?

As we kick off beta, we’re excited to see a ton of new players get access to Midnight content, but we’re especially eager to see structured testing of the endgame. The changes to addons don’t come in a vacuum; they are complemented by a new approach to building raid encounters, dungeon pulls, combat mechanics, and more. So we are looking forward to seeing players have that holistic experience, and we are looking for feedback not just on our UI or evolving addon capabilities, but on aspects of endgame combat that might feel unclear or unfair without some of the tools you are accustomed to using.

We’re going to be watching closely and listening to feedback throughout the beta. To us, the “Beta” designation means that we have the entirety of the game’s content ready for testing, but it is far from an endpoint to Midnight development. We will be agile and adaptive in close partnership with our community as we roll out regular updates in the weeks and months ahead, improving our base UI experience, adjusting tuning or presentation of mechanics, and adding new functionality for addon developers.

Thank you for taking the time to read through this. I understand that this amount of change can be scary, and that it’s natural to worry that the long-term benefits aren’t worth the short-term disruption. We’re going to do everything possible to ensure that your experience with Midnight is a great one, that customization and self-expression remain hallmarks of WoW’s UI, and that the game is more approachable than ever.

Ion Hazzikostas
Game Director



Read through our previous article How Midnight’s Upcoming Game Changes Will Impact Combat Addons for additional insights.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Combat Philosophy and Addon Disarmament in Midnight started by Lumy View original post
Comments 99 Comments
  1. Duese's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Except the IMMENSE community backlash any time a raid tier has been "easy" or "free". Look at the horde of raging manbabies every time a RWF ends in less than a week. There's a reason they're making fights larger and more complicated, because that's what the community demands. Especially given that making fights larger and more complicated doesn't impace LFR, Normal, and non-raiders, so it's been the obvious choice.

    Players will take every advantage they can, even when it's the most obvious thing in the world(For example, hitting the webs on Loomithar, nobody should need a big glowing sign that says "HIT ME" for that, and yet it's in literally every weak aura pack for that fight).
    You aren't understanding the problem. Addons are a RESPONSE to a problem, not the cause of the problem. Creating more complex fights doesn't make them harder, it just pushes more people to try to solve them with addons.

    Let's look at an example in a different context completely outside of video games. If I gave you a spreadsheet and told you that you needed to convert all of that data from one format to another format, you would absolutely be looking for something to help you do it. The type of complexity that is involved in converting that spreadsheet can be overcome easily through formula's and scripts. It's hard because it's complex but once you overcome the complexity, it gets easy.

    Now, instead of me telling you to convert data in a spreadsheet, I want you to have a meeting with multiple different stakeholders to create a project plan that can be given to a project manager to create a timeline that each different team needs to complete their tasks within.

    Hopefully you see the obvious differences between the two scenarios. The first is extremely complex but solved with some formulas. The second is less complex and more scheduled but requires interaction, adaption, organization and management. I would argue that the second is vastly harder than the first.

    Let's translate this back into an encounter design. If you have a boss design where the boss debuffs players and players need to stand in patterns in order to avoid taking damage, this would be more like working with a spreadsheet. It's simply a function of calculating a spot to stand and then going to that spot to stand. The complexity involved in knowing where to stand is very high, but it's not coordinated by working with the other players but instead is calculated through the equivalent of converting data in a spreadsheet.

    Conversely, if we translate the second scenario into a boss fight, it would look a lot different. Fighting the boss requires the raid to be split up into three different groups and each group needs fight off different parts of the boss. Through the fight, the teams need to coordinate as different areas need more damage, more healing or more tanking at various different times.

    Now, you can find different addons or weakauras that might help you with the second scenario, but the overall fight is going to be structured around coordination. This is very different from simply adding complexity. If the same mechanic would simply be timed where each different mechanic happened at exactly the same time, it would be fixed again with the spreadsheet.

    Regarding your comment about Loomithar, what's the problem? Do you not mark kill targets? In every scenario, something is going to happen to trigger people to burn the target. Why should we act like we can't use ANY methods to coordinate with the rest of the team? Are we not allowed to put ground markers down to know where to stand? Are we not allowed to ping targets or areas? Are we not allowed to make fun of the rogue who got the condom icon stuck on his head? Let's be real here, at some point you have to realize that these are coordination tools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    Because your argument doesn't hold water at all so it's not worth the time it takes to read it all.
    Well, my post was about you and people like you and your own actions are proving my point. You are so caught up blaming addons that you can't even grasp anything else. You want to blame addons for some stupid childish reason and when someone comes along and upsets your little narrative like you did, you don't have an answer to it. You have to run away and make excuses for running away like you just did.

    Why should anyone take you seriously when you can't even address arguments?

    My arguments are still there and haven't gone anywhere. You saying they don't hold any water while providing NOTHING doesn't do anything but waste time and make you look like a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    If even Blizzard admit this kind of feedback, it must be an even bigger deal than people think:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    when we release an encounter that puts up very little resistance, we often get feedback that the boss was unsatisfying
    This indicates that contrary to what some people on certain forums may purport, people by and large don't actually much like pushover content that's just a loot dispenser.
    The biggest realization that needs to happen here is recognizing that the multibillion dollar development company has a hard job and we pay them a hell of a lot of money to actually make that high quality content. If this was easy, then WoW wouldn't exist. Yes, they have a very hard job of balancing 4 different difficulty levels against a playerbase that has infinitely different skill levels and investment. If they screw it up, yes, they are going to get backlash.
  1. Stickiler's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    Conversely, if we translate the second scenario into a boss fight, it would look a lot different. Fighting the boss requires the raid to be split up into three different groups and each group needs fight off different parts of the boss. Through the fight, the teams need to coordinate as different areas need more damage, more healing or more tanking at various different times.

    Now, you can find different addons or weakauras that might help you with the second scenario, but the overall fight is going to be structured around coordination. This is very different from simply adding complexity. If the same mechanic would simply be timed where each different mechanic happened at exactly the same time, it would be fixed again with the spreadsheet.
    This is the EXACT type of fight that would just get solved by addons. Like, what even is your argument? In fact, that's explicitly an addon fight, because the addons can calculate, within fractions of a second, which area needs more tanking or healing or damage, whereas players would need to be calling out various data values and pieces of information to properly coordinate it. You're making my literal point for me, no matter WHAT fight you create, players will immediately reach for addons to trivialise every part of that fight that can possibly be trivialised, even if the part of the fight is already trivial(Loomithar webs). The only solution is disabling Addon's access to that combat information.
  1. SoleQueen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    Well, my post was about you and people like you and your own actions are proving my point. You are so caught up blaming addons that you can't even grasp anything else. You want to blame addons for some stupid childish reason and when someone comes along and upsets your little narrative like you did, you don't have an answer to it. You have to run away and make excuses for running away like you just did.

    Why should anyone take you seriously when you can't even address arguments?

    My arguments are still there and haven't gone anywhere. You saying they don't hold any water while providing NOTHING doesn't do anything but waste time and make you look like a joke.
    Your overall argument was literally "blizzard bad design causes addons"

    Which fails to counter the entire point of getting rid of combat addons since that apparent bad design being fixed by addons is an advantage people who don't install the addon don't have. Thus Ions point stands. If everyone just has to deal with the bad design, people would give feedback and it would likely get changed, instead people just solved it with addons and the people who didn't want to get the addon had to suffer. NOW we all suffer and blizzard has to act. This is a positive for the game overall. Also blizzard has learned a lot of lessons over the years and while a design fail now and then will happen it doesn't change the facts.. Addons fixing those design fails, gives players an advantage.

    So yeah I get what you're saying I just disagree with you that addons need to stay to keep solving these problems. It's up to blizzard to design well and do quality QA.
  1. Duese's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    This is the EXACT type of fight that would just get solved by addons. Like, what even is your argument? In fact, that's explicitly an addon fight, because the addons can calculate, within fractions of a second, which area needs more tanking or healing or damage, whereas players would need to be calling out various data values and pieces of information to properly coordinate it. You're making my literal point for me, no matter WHAT fight you create, players will immediately reach for addons to trivialise every part of that fight that can possibly be trivialised, even if the part of the fight is already trivial(Loomithar webs). The only solution is disabling Addon's access to that combat information.
    You didn't actually answer how this is solved by addons. You reduced everything down to a ridiculously simplistic perception and then pretended that addons could solve the problem. It's really a perfect example of the ignorance involved in these discussions. By your metric, you could make ANY encounter solved by addons because your description of addons is presuming that they play the game for you.

    When you take the design at value instead of reducing down to effectively magic like you are proposing, the decision making needs to be made at the player level, not the addon level. For example, if you know that a healing mechanic is needed in Group A, you don't need the addon to tell you to move to Group A. The mechanic is clear. That's the point. The addon becomes irrelevant when you can recognize the mechanic and allocate resources. Whether the addon tells you to move to group A or you simply see the mechanic, it's the same outcome.

    That's the point of having well designed mechanics. If mechanics are obsfucated so badly that the mechanic isn't clear, then the reliance gets moved to the addon instead of the player. This is bad design.
  1. Ashana Darkmoon's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    If even Blizzard admit this kind of feedback, it must be an even bigger deal than people think:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    when we release an encounter that puts up very little resistance, we often get feedback that the boss was unsatisfying
    This indicates that contrary to what some people on certain forums may purport, people by and large don't actually much like pushover content that's just a loot dispenser. Which is not, of course, equal to saying every fight should be super hard - there's considerable room in between. Which makes sense, really, when you think about basic psychology: an easy loot pinata may be fun every now and then, but only because it's in contrast with all the other content that isn't easy. Once this becomes too prevalent or too large in extent, the relative satisfaction established by the comparative baseline starts dropping. Now, you can shift that baseline, and I suspect that's exactly what's going to happen; but how much and how quickly you can reorient a game with a 20-year legacy as baggage is a whole different story.

    If they just make encounters pushovers, then some people will initially rejoice - and then they'll quit, because nothing feels satisfying or rewarding. And they may not even consciously be aware of the reason, they'll just find themselves having less fun and drift away. Of course, similar things happen in the other direction: if everything is just brutally difficult, people lose interest and stop trying to overcome the challenge. Which is precisely what addons helped with: they expanded the middle ground, the just-right-zone of where there's not too much and not too little. Without them as moderators, Blizzard will have a helluva job trying to hit the balance window. Good luck to them.
    Ion has said repeatedly across interviews for years that they get a lot of feedback about encounters being boring so this isn't even new. Even very social guilds like to overcome challenges, wherever that threshold is. I seem to recall a big creator (I think Taliesen) who run in a casual AOTC guild having lots of disappointment in the group when they were "done" in less than a month, because they have no aspirations to push into mythic.

    It's actually very difficult to tune stuff for a massive variety of players all of whom have a different idea of what fun challenges are. To give them some credit, I think they hit reasonably close to this more often than not.
  1. Duese's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    Your overall argument was literally "blizzard bad design causes addons"

    Which fails to counter the entire point of getting rid of combat addons since that apparent bad design being fixed by addons is an advantage people who don't install the addon don't have. Thus Ions point stands. If everyone just has to deal with the bad design, people would give feedback and it would likely get changed, instead people just solved it with addons and the people who didn't want to get the addon had to suffer. NOW we all suffer and blizzard has to act. This is a positive for the game overall. Also blizzard has learned a lot of lessons over the years and while a design fail now and then will happen it doesn't change the facts.. Addons fixing those design fails, gives players an advantage.

    So yeah I get what you're saying I just disagree with you that addons need to stay to keep solving these problems. It's up to blizzard to design well and do quality QA.
    I love it when people can't just address the damn arguments and instead have to continue to ignore everything. It's so frustrating wasting time pretending that you give a crap about any type of discussion. I try with you people but you continue to prove me right.

    I went through multiple examples of poor designs in the past and how they are designed better now to the point where addons are irrelevant for those mechanics. Did you even address that? Nope. You ignored it. You ignored every aspect of my argument that completely supports the position about design causing a response from addons.

    In other words, YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE ARGUMENTS. What do I need you to do to actually address them?

    Instead of addressing the arguments, you ignore the points and then presume that the points made don't address your made up counterargument that you've never supported once in any of your posts.

    Now, I realize that you are going to worship the ground that Ion walks on for some reason despite him being the root of every problem this game has had since he took over, but do you really not even realize what he's doing? When Ion is saying that we should provide feedback to fix the game, he's deflecting away from the fact that we shouldn't be the ones that have to constantly fix the game for him. This is a multibillion dollar development company with the largest MMO in history. Why are they so bad at internal testing that they have to wait until content is released for players to give feedback on what's wrong with it.

    Can you explain why you feel it's OUR JOB as players to fix bad designs made by the developers? That's what Ion is telling us that we are responsible for.

    No, fuck that. I'm not paying to play a game where Blizzard expects the players to do their job for them. It's already ridiculous right now where the best way to play the game is to wait a few weeks after the raid releases as they fix the bugs and problems and then do the raid.

    Fundamentally, the entire point that I am making is that addons are irrelevant to them fixing the problem. You are caught up on addons being removed and can't get the point that removing addons doesn't do anything to fix the problem. Hell, as Ion pointed out, it makes the problems WORSE because now we have to complain about them to get them fixed. Now, because Blizzard wants to blame addons for their mistakes and simps like you will chirp like birds supporting it, we lose any and all customization that we had with our UI's that we've been customizing for 20 years, we lose our highly functional unit frames, we lose having all of our performance information at our fingertips in our damage meter, we lose all of our customized notifications, etc... and for what exactly? What is it that you believe will change that you stand there saying that addons need to be removed and how can you justify that you aren't just an ignorant anti-addon person?

    So, are you going to actually address the points this time or are you going to once again ignore them and vomit out your shallow and completely wrong conclusions? It doesn't have to be like this. I don't have to literally shove your face in this like a dog that shit in the house. But this is what it apparently takes to get people like you to realize that YES, you do have to address the arguments and you can't just dismiss and run away from them. Balls in your court now kid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Ion has said repeatedly across interviews for years that they get a lot of feedback about encounters being boring so this isn't even new. Even very social guilds like to overcome challenges, wherever that threshold is. I seem to recall a big creator (I think Taliesen) who run in a casual AOTC guild having lots of disappointment in the group when they were "done" in less than a month, because they have no aspirations to push into mythic.

    It's actually very difficult to tune stuff for a massive variety of players all of whom have a different idea of what fun challenges are. To give them some credit, I think they hit reasonably close to this more often than not.
    Blizzard is a multibillion dollar development company making the largest and most longstanding MMO in history. Yes, it is hard to make encounters and raids that span all the different skill and investment types of players. We are paying them lots of money to do it though. Sometimes they'll get it right. Sometimes they won't. Either way, the best way to deal with this is by spending more time and money during design and QA rather than throw their hands up and say they can't do anything about it.

    Raiding has been in decline for the past 15 years. Despite this, they haven't changed anything with the structure of raiding to actually entice more people into raiding. As you pointed out, many guilds have no aspirations to push into mythic. Again, instead of throwing their hands up in the air and giving up, why wouldn't they be doing something to get more people into raiding?

    M+ works because it has a lot more difficulty levels so it caters to more skill levels and it allows for more targeted progression. I'm not suggesting that we simply get more difficulty levels for raiding but instead focus on how progression can fundamentally work better. I could absolutely see a difficulty being added between heroic and mythic OR having mythic raiding be designed with flex raiding in mind so you can do it with the 20 person lock or you can flex it. The strict raid number is absolutely a challenge when moving from heroic to mythic. My guild can't even get 15 people online at one time right now, let alone enough to run mythic raids again.
  1. Stickiler's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    You didn't actually answer how this is solved by addons. You reduced everything down to a ridiculously simplistic perception and then pretended that addons could solve the problem. It's really a perfect example of the ignorance involved in these discussions. By your metric, you could make ANY encounter solved by addons because your description of addons is presuming that they play the game for you.

    When you take the design at value instead of reducing down to effectively magic like you are proposing, the decision making needs to be made at the player level, not the addon level. For example, if you know that a healing mechanic is needed in Group A, you don't need the addon to tell you to move to Group A. The mechanic is clear. That's the point. The addon becomes irrelevant when you can recognize the mechanic and allocate resources. Whether the addon tells you to move to group A or you simply see the mechanic, it's the same outcome.

    That's the point of having well designed mechanics. If mechanics are obsfucated so badly that the mechanic isn't clear, then the reliance gets moved to the addon instead of the player. This is bad design.
    Nah, this is just not even based in any kind of reality. It doesn't matter how well designed a mechanic is, Players will reach for addons to make it simpler. 100% of the time, every time. People had addons in Molten Core, where the extent of mechanics was "Person who gets the bomb walks out", and yet addons were created(for the first time) to point out who had the bomb and where they should go to place it.

    That's why I pointed out the Loomithar webs. It's the most basic of mechanics, aka "Health bar appears, hit it until it reaches zero", and yet every weak aura pack includes something to make it simpler, including the literal glowing words "Attack me" hovering over the webs.

    You seem to live in some fantasy land where players won't use ane abuse every possible little advantage to make things easier/simpler, and where the general community doesn't slavishly copy everything the high end raiders and M+ players are doing, and that's just not reality.
  1. SoleQueen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    I love it when people can't just address the damn arguments and instead have to continue to ignore everything. It's so frustrating wasting time pretending that you give a crap about any type of discussion. I try with you people but you continue to prove me right.

    I went through multiple examples of poor designs in the past and how they are designed better now to the point where addons are irrelevant for those mechanics. Did you even address that? Nope. You ignored it. You ignored every aspect of my argument that completely supports the position about design causing a response from addons.

    In other words, YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE ARGUMENTS. What do I need you to do to actually address them?

    Instead of addressing the arguments, you ignore the points and then presume that the points made don't address your made up counterargument that you've never supported once in any of your posts.

    Now, I realize that you are going to worship the ground that Ion walks on for some reason despite him being the root of every problem this game has had since he took over, but do you really not even realize what he's doing? When Ion is saying that we should provide feedback to fix the game, he's deflecting away from the fact that we shouldn't be the ones that have to constantly fix the game for him. This is a multibillion dollar development company with the largest MMO in history. Why are they so bad at internal testing that they have to wait until content is released for players to give feedback on what's wrong with it.

    Can you explain why you feel it's OUR JOB as players to fix bad designs made by the developers? That's what Ion is telling us that we are responsible for.

    No, fuck that. I'm not paying to play a game where Blizzard expects the players to do their job for them. It's already ridiculous right now where the best way to play the game is to wait a few weeks after the raid releases as they fix the bugs and problems and then do the raid.

    Fundamentally, the entire point that I am making is that addons are irrelevant to them fixing the problem. You are caught up on addons being removed and can't get the point that removing addons doesn't do anything to fix the problem. Hell, as Ion pointed out, it makes the problems WORSE because now we have to complain about them to get them fixed. Now, because Blizzard wants to blame addons for their mistakes and simps like you will chirp like birds supporting it, we lose any and all customization that we had with our UI's that we've been customizing for 20 years, we lose our highly functional unit frames, we lose having all of our performance information at our fingertips in our damage meter, we lose all of our customized notifications, etc... and for what exactly? What is it that you believe will change that you stand there saying that addons need to be removed and how can you justify that you aren't just an ignorant anti-addon person?

    So, are you going to actually address the points this time or are you going to once again ignore them and vomit out your shallow and completely wrong conclusions? It doesn't have to be like this. I don't have to literally shove your face in this like a dog that shit in the house. But this is what it apparently takes to get people like you to realize that YES, you do have to address the arguments and you can't just dismiss and run away from them. Balls in your court now kid.
    I did address your arguments, just not in the sentence-by-sentence format you want. All of your points were variations of one core claim, and my reply addressed that claim directly. Disagreeing with you isn’t the same as ignoring you. You seem to assume that if I didn’t change my mind, it must mean I didn’t understand your argument, when in reality I simply don’t find it convincing.

    Addons exist because Blizzard makes bad design decisions.
    This doesn’t counter the point of removing combat addons. Addons “fixing” design flaws gives players who use them an advantage over those who don’t. That imbalance is exactly why Ion’s argument stands.

    Blizzard should just fix the design so addons aren’t needed.
    I addressed this too. The problem is that addons prevent Blizzard from fixing things, because the moment an addon patches the issue, it stops being visible as an urgent design flaw.

    Let me say this plainly:
    When addons solve the problem for players, the problem no longer registers as a problem. And when something doesn’t register as a problem, Blizzard has no incentive to act.
    It really is that simple. When action isn’t needed, action isn’t taken.

    Also I want to say that Ion is making it clear in this post that they actually ARE trying to fix the flaws they have.

    Removing addons doesn’t fix bad design.
    It forces Blizzard to fix it instead of letting WeakAuras or DBM cover it up. When everyone has to deal with the same flaws equally, those flaws stand out — and Blizzard actually has to address them.

    So yes, I addressed your argument. You just didn't convince me that addons need to stay, there's no reason for them to stay.
  1. nertscaise's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    I did address your arguments, just not in the sentence-by-sentence format you want. All of your points were variations of one core claim, and my reply addressed that claim directly. Disagreeing with you isn’t the same as ignoring you. You seem to assume that if I didn’t change my mind, it must mean I didn’t understand your argument, when in reality I simply don’t find it convincing.



    This doesn’t counter the point of removing combat addons. Addons “fixing” design flaws gives players who use them an advantage over those who don’t. That imbalance is exactly why Ion’s argument stands.



    I addressed this too. The problem is that addons prevent Blizzard from fixing things, because the moment an addon patches the issue, it stops being visible as an urgent design flaw.

    Let me say this plainly:
    When addons solve the problem for players, the problem no longer registers as a problem. And when something doesn’t register as a problem, Blizzard has no incentive to act.
    It really is that simple. When action isn’t needed, action isn’t taken.

    Also I want to say that Ion is making it clear in this post that they actually ARE trying to fix the flaws they have.



    It forces Blizzard to fix it instead of letting WeakAuras or DBM cover it up. When everyone has to deal with the same flaws equally, those flaws stand out — and Blizzard actually has to address them.

    So yes, I addressed your argument. You just didn't convince me that addons need to stay, there's no reason for them to stay.
    Funny you think 4 trillion dollar company blizzard (which is microsoft now) will introduce pain to itself to "force it".

    The entire tech industry is in decline and we are losing more and more rights over our own hardware and software. This is just another example.
  1. Hellfury's Avatar
    Blizzard need urgently to get their UI team up to shape, the back end team has been doing a good work with the APIs so addons front end can solve alot of issues.

    Native Nameplates have bare bones customisation, Unit Frames aswell, we cant hide out of combat or just show on mouseover the standard spell bars, the cooldown manager needs alot of work especially on the GUI, organisation of it, the cast bar need serious work its tiny and ugly, etc etc

    There are some addons and others being created that solve some of the issues I mentioned above but were we go again if need addons to have decent looking nameplates etc the UI team is failing.

    It took them 16years or so to let us move things arround iirc that came with Dragonflight or late Shadowlands and after 21year we still cant filter debuffs on the native unit frames thats mind blogging expecialy there is so many trash debufs that the ones that we really need to see get hidden in all that noise.

    So as Ion said; no I dont trust Blizzard to get it right for Midnight Launch mostly on customization and presentation of information, about combat addons Iam on board with that.
  1. Duese's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Nah, this is just not even based in any kind of reality. It doesn't matter how well designed a mechanic is, Players will reach for addons to make it simpler. 100% of the time, every time. People had addons in Molten Core, where the extent of mechanics was "Person who gets the bomb walks out", and yet addons were created(for the first time) to point out who had the bomb and where they should go to place it.

    That's why I pointed out the Loomithar webs. It's the most basic of mechanics, aka "Health bar appears, hit it until it reaches zero", and yet every weak aura pack includes something to make it simpler, including the literal glowing words "Attack me" hovering over the webs.

    You seem to live in some fantasy land where players won't use ane abuse every possible little advantage to make things easier/simpler, and where the general community doesn't slavishly copy everything the high end raiders and M+ players are doing, and that's just not reality.
    No, you are representing reality. You are representing a completely ignorant perspective of GROUP CONTENT. The fundamental aspect of group content is that it's done WITH A GROUP. Now, why is that important? Why am I pointing out that this is done AS A GROUP? It's very simple, anytime that people need to function as a group, it means it requires coordination. Everything you are arguing with addons is going to happen one way or the other because it's fundamental to the coordination of the fights.

    For example, you claim that addons tell you where to go but how does that play out in practice? In the Nexus Prince Salhadaar fight, you need to drop a debuff at specific places in order to deal with the mechanic. EVERY GROUP... EVERY SINGLE ONE... used ground markers for where to go stand. Now, these ground markers are telling players where to go and therefore based on YOUR LOGIC, then it's players abusing systems in order to complete the fight. There is nothing that you are arguing about addons right now which doesn't apply to things like ground markers, target markers or even boss timers WHICH ARE IN THE GAME ALREADY.

    Let's take this one step further because it's really fundamental to why your arguments are flawed. In a raid, I'm using discord with the rest of the group. Raid leaders are calling out different mechanics, telling people where to stand, saying when to use different cooldowns, etc. So, by your logic, raid leaders calling out mechanics and discord enabling voice all are abusing systems based on your position.

    Your argument, when played out logically, reduces the game down to raids being single player, having no methods to coordinate mechanics and everything being done entirely in the dark.

    So, can you explain in a logical and rational way why your stance wouldn't apply to ANY methods to enabled coordination and provide some actual real raid examples?

    Your position has absolute no clear line between what is acceptable and what's not leading to everything being completely arbitrary and biased by ridiculous anti-addon nutjobs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    I did address your arguments, just not in the sentence-by-sentence format you want. All of your points were variations of one core claim, and my reply addressed that claim directly. Disagreeing with you isn’t the same as ignoring you. You seem to assume that if I didn’t change my mind, it must mean I didn’t understand your argument, when in reality I simply don’t find it convincing.



    This doesn’t counter the point of removing combat addons. Addons “fixing” design flaws gives players who use them an advantage over those who don’t. That imbalance is exactly why Ion’s argument stands.



    I addressed this too. The problem is that addons prevent Blizzard from fixing things, because the moment an addon patches the issue, it stops being visible as an urgent design flaw.

    Let me say this plainly:
    When addons solve the problem for players, the problem no longer registers as a problem. And when something doesn’t register as a problem, Blizzard has no incentive to act.
    It really is that simple. When action isn’t needed, action isn’t taken.

    Also I want to say that Ion is making it clear in this post that they actually ARE trying to fix the flaws they have.



    It forces Blizzard to fix it instead of letting WeakAuras or DBM cover it up. When everyone has to deal with the same flaws equally, those flaws stand out — and Blizzard actually has to address them.

    So yes, I addressed your argument. You just didn't convince me that addons need to stay, there's no reason for them to stay.
    I'm not asking for sentence by sentence arguments. I'm asking you to address literally ANY of my argument. You keep avoiding addressing the points I'm making and then vomiting out your ignorant anti-addon stance.

    Where in ANY of your comments have you addressed the point that I made in my VERY FIRST POST that you were too lazy to read, where mechanics that were poorly designed in the past and were later designed significantly better resulted in players not seeking out addons for them. Where have you EVER addressed the design of the mechanics being the problem and that being a Blizzard problem and not an addon problem. You sit there saying you are addressing my arguments, but you just are straight up not. Quit fucking lying.

    I'm not going to convince you. That was clear with your childishness in your first response to me. My goal is to highlight just how horrible of a position you have and make you have to deal with the consequences of your position. This is why I know you will run away from the arguments that I'm making and why you will cowardly refuse to address them. You wil make whatever excuses you can and I just don't tolerate that bullshit. You will have to address the points or you will concede by running away. The only hope that I have is that people like you realize that you can't support your own positions and you keep your damn mouth shut in these discussions because of it.


    The premise of your argument is that addons "fix" design problems and it gives an advantage to those people who use addons to fix those design problems. Can you explain to me why addons fixing design is the problem and not the fact that the design problems exist in the first place? In other words, you are blaming addons because Blizzard made bad designs. It's completely ridiculous and you've done literally nothing to support this claim.

    Now, when confronted by this, you claim that addons prevent blizzard from fixing things. You've done literally nothing to support this at all and just presumed that the only outcome is that it's no longer a problem that needs fixing because of addons. So, can you justify why you feel that addons are preventing Blizzard from fixing problems? Are you suggesting that Blizzard is so incompetent that they can't see problems if addons exist and they are oblivious to what any addons do? This is your position that Blizzard are fucking morons and don't know what anyone is doing. How do you justify this?

    When addons solve the problem for the players, IT'S STILL A PROBLEM THAT BLIZZARD CAN AND SHOULD FIX. Everything here points to Blizzard as the problem. They are too lazy to fix problems and instead just let addons do it for them. That's a Blizzard problem not an addon problem. Go ahead, explain how blizzard choosing NOT to fix problems because of addons is a problem with the addons?

    Regarding Ion's comments, how old are you? Have you been playing this game for longer than a few months? Do you even realize how many times Ion has said he wanted to do things and completely failed with it. Blizzard has been saying they want to reduce the reliance on addons in encounters for 15 years. So, can you provide any evidence that Blizzard will actually be able to accomplish what Ion is saying?

    Ion also said that we would have comparable addons to the ones they are breaking such as damage meters, boss timers and cooldown manager, however that was a straight up lie and their replacements are so completely incomparable that it's a joke.

    So, should I expect you to run away from the arguments again or are you going to realize that yes, you do need to explain and justify your position. Or, you could do everyone a favor and recognize that you shouldn't be in these discussions in the first place especially when you start this whole garbage chain with your childish garbage saying you wouldn't even read the arguments. So far, you're still that same garbage childish person and I don't think you are even capable of having a rational discussion on this topic.
  1. Twdft's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    WoW is just (or has been until now, at least) amazingly garbage at communicating what you need to know in a clear, efficient, precise way.
    That's still going on even in the newest content. FI endboss eco-dome while your soul has a sign on top it still is the same color scheme as everything else in the fight. Looks nice, could be clearer.
  1. SoleQueen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    I'm not asking for sentence by sentence arguments.....
    You are asking for that because you don't seem to be able to read and correlate my response to your own, so if I don't respond this way you just jump to idea that it wasn't addressed.

    SO here you go

    You keep avoiding addressing the points I'm making and then vomiting out your ignorant anti-addon stance.
    I’m not anti-addon; I’m anti-combat addons that automate clarity. And I addressed your points — they all stem from the same premise.

    Where in ANY of your comments have you addressed the point… where mechanics that were poorly designed in the past and were later designed better resulted in players not seeking out addons for them.
    I addressed that directly: redesigned mechanics stop needing addons because Blizzard fixes them — and Blizzard fixes them faster when addons no longer mask the problem. Your example actually supports my point, not yours.

    Where have you EVER addressed the design of the mechanics being the problem and that being a Blizzard problem and not an addon problem.
    Multiple times. I’ve said repeatedly that design flaws are Blizzard’s responsibility — addons just hide those flaws and delay Blizzard correcting them.

    You sit there saying you are addressing my arguments, but you just are straight up not. Quit fucking lying.
    Again, disagreement is not avoidance. You seem to want agreement, not engagement.

    I'm not going to convince you… My goal is to highlight how horrible your position is…
    Your goal seems to be venting, not discussing. I’m still addressing your points calmly.

    You will run away… cowardly refuse… concede by running away…
    Or I simply disagree with your premise and I’m not adopting your aggressive framing.

    The premise of your argument is that addons ‘fix’ design problems and give an advantage to people who use them.
    Correct; and that is objective. Addons that call out mechanics or track things the UI doesn’t do give advantages. If doesn't matter if you see it as "fixing" a "design flaw"... if installing that addon does in fact "fix" it, then everyone who doesn't have the addon is now at a disadvantage which puts you at an advantage. I assume you don't see it this way because you think that everyone uses said addon which is not true, some people really hate installing lots of addons. I am personally one of the types of people that hates having 7 million weakauras that I don't need because my guild thinks they help.... Sometimes I just don't need the help and if I need help I will get it myself.

    Explain why addons fixing design is the problem and not the design problems themselves.
    It's not a problem, sometimes players feel like it needs to happen... But they still give an advantage... I want to make it pretty clear here that I am not anti-addon, I like addons, I just don't see the point in having tons and tons of addons that are not needed and lets be real about this... very very few addons are actually needed. BUT they do give an advantage, like it or not..

    You claim addons prevent Blizzard from fixing things, but you’ve done nothing to support it.
    This is one of those things where you're asking to support something but you know there's only anecdotal evidence at best. It's what we call a bad faith argument. Like yeah we can't prove this is the case but the evidence we have strongly suggests that it's true.

    Are you suggesting Blizzard is so incompetent they can’t see problems if addons exist?
    No — I’m saying Blizzard triages based on live player experience. If an addon solves something, the issue loses urgency. That’s not incompetence; that’s normal triage.

    When addons solve the problem for players, it's still a problem Blizzard should fix.
    I agree — but they don’t prioritize it because the urgency disappears. Again: if action isn’t needed, action isn’t taken. That’s not “addons’ fault,” but it is an effect addons create.

    Everything points to Blizzard being the problem… explain how Blizzard choosing not to fix problems because of addons is a problem with addons.
    Because addons change how Blizzard sees problems. If players bypass an issue, it doesn’t appear as a critical gameplay flaw — it appears as “handled by the community,” and it naturally falls in priority.

    Ion has said things before and failed — why believe him now? Show evidence.
    Well for 1.. I don't actually agree that he's failed all that much, although everyone makes mistakes. A lot of the time players aggressively misinterpret what's being said and create expectations in their mind of things that were never going to happen in the first place. But also game development isn't set in stone, I can tell you as a small time dev, the amount of times where I've had an idea and it just couldn't be, is pretty high up there and I'm just one person working on a solo project.

    Ion lied about comparable replacements for addons.
    That’s your interpretation. Blizzard said “baseline tools,” not “1:1 replacement for every addon feature ever made.” Blizzard never said they would replace those addons, what they said was that they want to give players all the information that they might get from addons (excluding the uber specific micromanaging stuff that weakauras usually handles) in the default UI, and then give addons the ability to reshape that information into whatever design they would like to display it.

    Should I expect you to run away… keep your mouth shut… childish garbage…
    No need for hostility. I’ve been addressing your points consistently. You simply don’t like the answers because they don’t match your conclusion.
  1. Stickiler's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    No, you are representing reality. You are representing a completely ignorant perspective of GROUP CONTENT. The fundamental aspect of group content is that it's done WITH A GROUP. Now, why is that important? Why am I pointing out that this is done AS A GROUP? It's very simple, anytime that people need to function as a group, it means it requires coordination. Everything you are arguing with addons is going to happen one way or the other because it's fundamental to the coordination of the fights.

    For example, you claim that addons tell you where to go but how does that play out in practice? In the Nexus Prince Salhadaar fight, you need to drop a debuff at specific places in order to deal with the mechanic. EVERY GROUP... EVERY SINGLE ONE... used ground markers for where to go stand. Now, these ground markers are telling players where to go and therefore based on YOUR LOGIC, then it's players abusing systems in order to complete the fight. There is nothing that you are arguing about addons right now which doesn't apply to things like ground markers, target markers or even boss timers WHICH ARE IN THE GAME ALREADY.

    Let's take this one step further because it's really fundamental to why your arguments are flawed. In a raid, I'm using discord with the rest of the group. Raid leaders are calling out different mechanics, telling people where to stand, saying when to use different cooldowns, etc. So, by your logic, raid leaders calling out mechanics and discord enabling voice all are abusing systems based on your position.

    Your argument, when played out logically, reduces the game down to raids being single player, having no methods to coordinate mechanics and everything being done entirely in the dark.

    So, can you explain in a logical and rational way why your stance wouldn't apply to ANY methods to enabled coordination and provide some actual real raid examples?

    Your position has absolute no clear line between what is acceptable and what's not leading to everything being completely arbitrary and biased by ridiculous anti-addon nutjobs.
    Sure, let's take your nexus prince saladahar example, and explain it in a non-insane way.

    Players use ground markers to mark specific locations, and then the debuff is applied to random players. Those players, currently, don't even need to THINK about where to go, because as soon as they get a debuff, an addon calculates how many players have the debuff, how far in the fight we are, and immediately defines an assignment array that ensure the debuffs are dropped in locations which will ensure the most optimal layout for the coming phase with the debuffs. With the removal of these calculative addons, the players will instead need to quickly decide which location to go to, based on the strategy that the group decided, rather than just whatever the addon spat out.

    That's the difference, and that's the line. It's not complicated. If players are making the on-the-spot decisions about how something plays out, it's fine. If an addon is looking at the combat state of the game and calculating the best outcome, it's not fine. And that's the crux of the entirety of this addon change. Assistive things are fine, as long as the decisions still rest in the players during the moment-to-moment gameplay. That's why things like the Raid Tool Notes are going to function perfectly fine, because it doesn't do anything calculative, it just displays information that you as the player decided to put on the screen.
  1. Duese's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    You are asking for that because you don't seem to be able to read and correlate my response to your own, so if I don't respond this way you just jump to idea that it wasn't addressed.

    SO here you go


    I’m not anti-addon; I’m anti-combat addons that automate clarity. And I addressed your points — they all stem from the same premise.
    So, just to be clear, not a single time in ANY of your comments did you say anything related to this. Apparently you are starting to realize how horrible your position is and so you are desperately trying to change your position in order to look less ridiculous. The problem is that you only made your position even more ridiculous. By reducing your position down to specifically "automate clarity", you've made it clear that facts don't matter to you one bit. You are literally defending bad design.


    I addressed that directly: redesigned mechanics stop needing addons because Blizzard fixes them — and Blizzard fixes them faster when addons no longer mask the problem. Your example actually supports my point, not yours.
    Do you have any proof that blizzard fixes them faster when no addons "mask" the problem? Any actual examples? I don't think you can produce a single example to support your position. When you can't produce a single example of this, then the entire premise of your claim is as bullshit now as it was from the start.


    Multiple times. I’ve said repeatedly that design flaws are Blizzard’s responsibility — addons just hide those flaws and delay Blizzard correcting them.
    If they are blizzard's responsibility, then why are you blaming addons? If it's Blizzard's fault, then it's blizzards fault. It can't be blizzards fault but you blame addons. It's a completely ridiculous position. In order for you position to hold, then Blizzard has to be so fucking incompetent that they can't see what addons people are using in their own game. It's actually worse than that because Blizzard literally monitors high end mythic raid groups early in the raid progression to fix game breaking bugs. Can you explain to me how addons for raids can be so widespread that over 100k people regularly down them as part of addons packs, but somehow Blizzard can't figure out what problems addons are trying to fix? When you can't answer that, then this will be yet another ridiculous argument you've tried to make that you can't support.


    Again, disagreement is not avoidance. You seem to want agreement, not engagement.
    You literally refused to even read my arguments. That's avoidance.


    Your goal seems to be venting, not discussing. I’m still addressing your points calmly.
    No, I'm just treating you with the level of respect that you gave me. I mean, again, you chose to tell me you couldn't have the decency of even reading the arguments. If you don't like how I'm replying to you, well, sorry but I don't care. You set the bar and now you expect me to be nice to you? So, you made your bed and now you get to lie in it. Or you could apologize and act like a rational person but given how you've acted so far, that's not going to happen.


    Correct; and that is objective. Addons that call out mechanics or track things the UI doesn’t do give advantages. If doesn't matter if you see it as "fixing" a "design flaw"... if installing that addon does in fact "fix" it, then everyone who doesn't have the addon is now at a disadvantage which puts you at an advantage. I assume you don't see it this way because you think that everyone uses said addon which is not true, some people really hate installing lots of addons. I am personally one of the types of people that hates having 7 million weakauras that I don't need because my guild thinks they help.... Sometimes I just don't need the help and if I need help I will get it myself.
    So, do you feel like lying is a good way to make an argument? I just have to ask the question because when you say you need 7 million weak auras, you have to realize that I'm going to call bullshit on it. And no, I'm not calling bullshit on the exaggeration. I'm calling bullshit that you are somehow needing ANY significant amount of weakauras for anything in the raid.

    Just for fun, I went through all of the weakauras that were made by Liquid for the raid. Of ALL the weakauras that were created, nearly all of them are simply replacing the raid leader call outs. That's the biggest issue here that you don't seem to understand. In your desperation to blame addons, you forget that these are the mechanics of the fight people are performing. Everything that you blame addons for, you can blame Raid Leaders for. So, if an addon says "Move to Star" which is based on a precreated assignment, guess what a raid leader is going to do? Yep. They are going to say "Group 2 to star". Are you going to ban raid leaders to? Are raid leaders now covering for Blizzards bad raid design or are the mechanics fine and you are just attacking NORMAL coordination of a raid?

    It's not a problem, sometimes players feel like it needs to happen... But they still give an advantage... I want to make it pretty clear here that I am not anti-addon, I like addons, I just don't see the point in having tons and tons of addons that are not needed and lets be real about this... very very few addons are actually needed. BUT they do give an advantage, like it or not..
    You can tell me you aren't anti-addon until you are blue in the face but when you have such an objectively ignorant position, you aren't fooling anyone. You are so caught up blaming addons for giving an advantage that you don't realize that your same logic applies to ANY type of external advantage. Your same argument about addons applies to Discord and voice chat. Your same argument about addons applies to ground markers and target markers. Your same argument applies to BLIZZARDS BOSS BARS! So, how do you justify your stance when it would apply to all of these other things? Again, that's the problem with your position because you are more caught up barking about addons than actually making a logical stance.


    This is one of those things where you're asking to support something but you know there's only anecdotal evidence at best. It's what we call a bad faith argument. Like yeah we can't prove this is the case but the evidence we have strongly suggests that it's true.
    Your argument is that Blizzard can't fix encounter design problems because of addons. If you have ZERO evidence of it happening, then how can you make the claim you are making? No shit there's only anecdotal evidence, but that doesn't make it a bad faith argument. What it makes is you having a completely unsupported argument. The entirety of your argument hinges on ZERO facts and as you just said "anecdotal at best". Don't confuse your bad arguments and me pointing that out for arguing in bad faith.

    So, go ahead and produce the support you have for your premise that Blizzard can't fix encounter problems because of addons. Or, you can retract your argument. Balls in your court but don't waste my time calling it bad faith just because you don't like it.

    No — I’m saying Blizzard triages based on live player experience. If an addon solves something, the issue loses urgency. That’s not incompetence; that’s normal triage.
    Ok, so why are you blaming addons? This is why I'm forcing you to address the arguments being made and why I'm not tolerating your deflections because it always leads back to the same central theme. It's the same thing that I said in my very first comment that you dismissed but here it is proven by your own comment.

    Here's straight from my first comment, before you childishly refused to even read my arguments: What this means is that Blizzard has ALWAYS been in control of their own game regardless of anything that addons could do.

    Your own statements prove my argument correct.


    I agree — but they don’t prioritize it because the urgency disappears. Again: if action isn’t needed, action isn’t taken. That’s not “addons’ fault,” but it is an effect addons create.
    So, Blizzard makes the choice to allow the problems they created to remain in the game. Why again is it a problem with addons? Once again, you say "yeah, it's blizzard's fault" but you then blame addons.


    Because addons change how Blizzard sees problems. If players bypass an issue, it doesn’t appear as a critical gameplay flaw — it appears as “handled by the community,” and it naturally falls in priority.
    So, once again, Blizzard is fine with making bad encounter design as long as addons fix it. Explain to me how the game gets better without addons if Blizzard is relying on addons to fix their bad design? As I said, everything has always been in Blizzard's hands from the start. Any blame on the addons is completely unsupported and nothing but an excuse.

    But here's the problem and it's exactly why people like you are supporting the destruction of the game. Rather than make Blizzard prove they can make encounters where players aren't seeking out addons, they are removing addons and pretending that despite no evidence, their encounter design will magically get better.

    The correct course of action that every single person who has ever worked in project management, change management and development knows is to prove your new solution works before the old solutions is decomissioned. It's what Ion told us they were going to do but that was just a straight up fucking lie.


    Well for 1.. I don't actually agree that he's failed all that much, although everyone makes mistakes. A lot of the time players aggressively misinterpret what's being said and create expectations in their mind of things that were never going to happen in the first place. But also game development isn't set in stone, I can tell you as a small time dev, the amount of times where I've had an idea and it just couldn't be, is pretty high up there and I'm just one person working on a solo project.
    You can choose to not agree but unfortunately the numbers show very clearly. If you look at the biggest declines in the history of WoW, they are tied to three expansions, WoD, BFA and SL. He took over game director after legion. In the first expansion he was responsible for, he actively fought against the playerbase around Azerite armor which resulted in massive backlash from the playerbase. In SL, he was so blatantly antagonistic against players around covenant locking and similar systems that it caused WoW to hit the lowest point in history. It was more important for him to get what he wanted instead of having players enjoy the game. I'm convinced that the only reason that DF was positively received was because he just shut the fuck up and didn't piss the players off. Now, we've got BFA and SL Ion back and it's going to end exactly the same way. He cares more about his vision than he does if anyone actually enjoys it.

    The game would be better if he would just fuck off. You can disagree but you really don't have anything to support it.


    That’s your interpretation. Blizzard said “baseline tools,” not “1:1 replacement for every addon feature ever made.” Blizzard never said they would replace those addons, what they said was that they want to give players all the information that they might get from addons (excluding the uber specific micromanaging stuff that weakauras usually handles) in the default UI, and then give addons the ability to reshape that information into whatever design they would like to display it.
    No, I'm not interpreting anything. Here's the fucking quote so don't give me this bullshit that I'm misrpresenting it.

    Hazzikostas said. "Add-ons have been part of the game since its very earliest days. If we were to just come along one day and rip off that band-aid, it would be jarring."

    "The goal is to build up the native functionality of our UI to increasingly narrow the gap between players who are using add-ons that assist with competitive functions and those who are not. Once we are most of the way there, there's going to be that last mile that consists of things that honestly we don't think are super healthy for the game."

    That's when the functionality would be turned off, he said.

    You can watch the video right here. So, please don't lie and say I'm "interpreting" it differently just because you want to defend this lying piece of shit.

    No need for hostility. I’ve been addressing your points consistently. You simply don’t like the answers because they don’t match your conclusion.
    As I said earlier, when you decided to act like a little child in your replies presuming to not even read my arguments, then why should I treat you with any respect at all? It's ironic what you are doing here because it's the same ignorance you have with the addon discussion. You blame me for being hostile while taking ZERO responsibility for why I'm responding the way I am. I'm just responding to exactly the level of respect you gave to me from the start so if you don't like how I'm replying to you, then point that finger at yourself because you made it this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Sure, let's take your nexus prince saladahar example, and explain it in a non-insane way.

    Players use ground markers to mark specific locations, and then the debuff is applied to random players. Those players, currently, don't even need to THINK about where to go, because as soon as they get a debuff, an addon calculates how many players have the debuff, how far in the fight we are, and immediately defines an assignment array that ensure the debuffs are dropped in locations which will ensure the most optimal layout for the coming phase with the debuffs. With the removal of these calculative addons, the players will instead need to quickly decide which location to go to, based on the strategy that the group decided, rather than just whatever the addon spat out.

    That's the difference, and that's the line. It's not complicated. If players are making the on-the-spot decisions about how something plays out, it's fine. If an addon is looking at the combat state of the game and calculating the best outcome, it's not fine. And that's the crux of the entirety of this addon change. Assistive things are fine, as long as the decisions still rest in the players during the moment-to-moment gameplay. That's why things like the Raid Tool Notes are going to function perfectly fine, because it doesn't do anything calculative, it just displays information that you as the player decided to put on the screen.
    Let's go ahead and correct you on basically everything because I don't think you even know how the fight works at this point in time.

    The debuffs aren't random. There are 6 debuffs EVERY TIME. They go on 3 ranged for the first set of debuffs. Then 2 melee and a tank for the second set of debuffs. They even have different colors for the debuffs. For ranged, you have to run to 1 of 3 places which you can pre-position for. For the second set, the tank always goes to the same one so the melee pick between two.

    Now, here's the best part, the debuffs are a private aura. Addons can't even see who has the debuff to tell them where to go. The addons just say call out when the first set of debuffs happen and when the second set go out. If you are a melee, you know to go to one area and if you are a ranged, you go to another area. I'm literally watching the video of Liquid's kill right now and Max is literally calling out "Ranged go to star". The only thing the addon does is put a static image of the map up on the screen. Guess what happens if addons get removed for this? The map goes on the second monitor. It's not even going to change a single thing about this encounter.

    Players are literally doing exactly what you said they should do in this encounter, they are getting a call out from the raid leader based on the pre-defined strategy and are being told which marker to go to. From there, even right now, they have to still choose the right specific spot out of 3 possible. You can see the amount of wipes happening because two people went to the same spot which wouldn't be possible if your claim was true that it told you exactly where to go.

    So, let's go back and ask you the same question again, where is your line because the example you just tried to use would also apply to the raid leader. It would apply to the markers on the ground. It would apply to the callouts being made.

    The one thing you are right about is that it's not complicated. There are extremely few scenarios where addons are "solving the game for you" and instead, addons are being used to supplement the strategy for the raid. The addons didn't pick where players were going. The addons didn't do anything that the raid leader also didn't do. What's the difference between an addon saying "Ranged to Star" and the raid leader going "Ranged to Star".
  1. Stickiler's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post

    Let's go ahead and correct you on basically everything because I don't think you even know how the fight works at this point in time.

    The debuffs aren't random. There are 6 debuffs EVERY TIME. They go on 3 ranged for the first set of debuffs. Then 2 melee and a tank for the second set of debuffs. They even have different colors for the debuffs. For ranged, you have to run to 1 of 3 places which you can pre-position for. For the second set, the tank always goes to the same one so the melee pick between two.

    Now, here's the best part, the debuffs are a private aura. Addons can't even see who has the debuff to tell them where to go. The addons just say call out when the first set of debuffs happen and when the second set go out. If you are a melee, you know to go to one area and if you are a ranged, you go to another area. I'm literally watching the video of Liquid's kill right now and Max is literally calling out "Ranged go to star". The only thing the addon does is put a static image of the map up on the screen. Guess what happens if addons get removed for this? The map goes on the second monitor. It's not even going to change a single thing about this encounter.

    Players are literally doing exactly what you said they should do in this encounter, they are getting a call out from the raid leader based on the pre-defined strategy and are being told which marker to go to. From there, even right now, they have to still choose the right specific spot out of 3 possible. You can see the amount of wipes happening because two people went to the same spot which wouldn't be possible if your claim was true that it told you exactly where to go.
    Holy fuck dude. The debuffs go on random people -> The debuffs are random. Way to not even begin to try and critically think and consider what I'm saying.

    We're clearly talking about different debuffs, because unlike your video-watching, I was literally progging this boss on Mythic 2 weeks ago, and the mechanic I'm talking about, the weakaura literally assigned us different locations based on world markers and who had the debuff.

    Also, pointing at a private aura, ya know, the system added because addons were solving too many mechanics, as some kind of proof that addons don't solve mechanics is certainly an argument-style

    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    So, let's go back and ask you the same question again, where is your line because the example you just tried to use would also apply to the raid leader. It would apply to the markers on the ground. It would apply to the callouts being made.

    The one thing you are right about is that it's not complicated. There are extremely few scenarios where addons are "solving the game for you" and instead, addons are being used to supplement the strategy for the raid. The addons didn't pick where players were going. The addons didn't do anything that the raid leader also didn't do. What's the difference between an addon saying "Ranged to Star" and the raid leader going "Ranged to Star".
    The difference(in your example) is that one is a human saying it. That's it.
  1. SoleQueen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    So, just to be clear, not a single time in ANY of your comments did you say ... blah blah blah the rest of the nonsense your wrote
    You’re mixing up two different things and treating them like they can’t coexist:

    - Blizzard is responsible for the design problems.

    - Addons change how those problems are experienced and how urgently Blizzard fixes them.

    Both are true. Blizzard created the flaws, yes — but addons mask those flaws in practice. When players bypass a problem with third-party tools, the visible urgency of that problem drops. That doesn’t remove Blizzard’s responsibility; it affects their prioritization. That’s the entire point you keep missing.

    Your example about older mechanics being redesigned and no longer needing addons actually reinforces my argument: Blizzard fixed those mechanics because the flaws were directly experienced by players and couldn’t be bypassed with community scripting. When a design problem is universally felt, Blizzard is forced to redesign it. When addons neutralize it, that pressure weakens. It’s cause and effect, not a contradiction.

    You also reacted to obvious hyperbole as if it were a literal claim. When I said “seven million WeakAuras,” that wasn’t a statistic — it was exaggeration to illustrate how bloated and dependency-heavy the WA ecosystem has become. Treating that as a factual claim and then building part of your argument around it is exactly why you’re missing the nuance of what I’m saying.

    If you take rhetorical emphasis literally, there’s no way to have a proper debate with you. And if you can’t even recognise hyperbole in service of making a point, you have zero chance of correctly understanding anything an actual developer says.

    As for the quote you posted from Ion, I have one thing to say:

    ADDONS ARE NOT GOING AWAY. ONLY COMBAT ADDONS THAT EFFECTIVELY AUTOMATE CALLOUTS ARE. HE WAS CLEARLY TALKING ABOUT ALL ADDONS, AND THAT’S NOT WHAT IS GETTING TAKEN AWAY, SO YES — YOU ARE LITERALLY INTERPRETING IT WRONG.

    On top of that, you keep insisting that acknowledging Blizzard’s responsibility must somehow mean addons have no role at all in the state of the game. That’s a false binary. Blizzard is responsible for encounter clarity and addons influenced how those clarity issues were handled, ignored, or postponed. Responsibility doesn’t erase influence.

    You’re also being silly when you compare combat addons to Discord, raid markers, or boss bars. Voice chat and markers coordinate people; combat addons automate interpretation, prediction, and decision-making. Those aren’t equivalents, and pretending they are doesn’t strengthen your argument.

    You keep implying that I’m saying addons “cause” Blizzard’s design issues or that blizzard can't fix things because of addons. I’m not. Blizzard causes the issues; addons influence how visible and urgent those issues appear in live gameplay. That’s not deflection — it’s the actual dynamic that’s existed for two decades. Blizzard don't fix them because currently a lot of the time the community does.

    You’re interpreting every disagreement as dishonesty. I’m simply not reaching the same conclusion you are, and instead of engaging with the logic of my position, you’re insisting that “you didn’t address my points” because I didn’t arrive at the answer you expect.

    I understand your argument. I just don’t agree with it. And that’s all this comes down to. I have no changed my position, at all since the start of this conversation, your original post still was not worth reading, and so far I'm seeing no reason to talk to you because you have demonstrated that you can't be rational, logical or level headed.. I know you are really angry about this but you need to get a grip and come to terms with the fact that some of the combat addons you use are going..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Holy fuck dude. The debuffs go on random people -> The debuffs are random. Way to not even begin to try and critically think and consider what I'm saying.

    We're clearly talking about different debuffs, because unlike your video-watching, I was literally progging this boss on Mythic 2 weeks ago, and the mechanic I'm talking about, the weakaura literally assigned us different locations based on world markers and who had the debuff.

    Also, pointing at a private aura, ya know, the system added because addons were solving too many mechanics, as some kind of proof that addons don't solve mechanics is certainly an argument-style


    The difference(in your example) is that one is a human saying it. That's it.
    dude this guy is so scared that he wont be able to play without these addons, you can see it in his responses I'm checking out from the convo good luck.
  1. Xisa's Avatar
    Ion can have the wrong opinion about this all he wants - his actions are on the bubble of shattering the entire long-term dedicated playerbase this game has.

    That's why he made this post, at an attempt to assuage. Instead, he just spent 10 paragraphs blaming addon authors for complaining. This company is impossibly tone-deaf, and the failure starts at the top, it seems.
  1. klaps_05's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Xisa View Post
    Ion can have the wrong opinion about this all he wants - his actions are on the bubble of shattering the entire long-term dedicated playerbase this game has.

    That's why he made this post, at an attempt to assuage. Instead, he just spent 10 paragraphs blaming addon authors for complaining. This company is impossibly tone-deaf, and the failure starts at the top, it seems.
    Long-term dedicated playerbase will play this game regardless. If you are deep into m+/raiding/etc. you aint going anywhere no matter how much ppl pretend to be quitting. Addon changes are extremely beneficial to majority of raiders and m+ players - no more having to import 400 auras for mythic raiding or special plater profiles for dungeons or dungeon weakaura packs hogging your memory. So the middle section of raiding and m+ benefits greatly, the top end will play regardless and bottom end will see this as less barriers.

    Right now, if you actually logged in on beta, you would see that you can recreate 95% of elvui and plater functions with like 3 addons, so no idea what the "long-term dedicated playerbase" would quit over.
  1. Ghostile's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Xisa View Post
    Ion can have the wrong opinion about this all he wants - his actions are on the bubble of shattering the entire long-term dedicated playerbase this game has.

    That's why he made this post, at an attempt to assuage. Instead, he just spent 10 paragraphs blaming addon authors for complaining. This company is impossibly tone-deaf, and the failure starts at the top, it seems.
    Considering this is "hitting hardest" on mythic raiders who arent exactly fans of 400 auras per raid, nah, we're not quiting.

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