Combat Philosophy and Addon Disarmament in Midnight
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
As we move into the beta phase of Midnight testing and invite a much larger wave of players in to experience the expansion and provide feedback, I wanted to take time to recap the planned changes to addon capabilities, and the accompanying broader changes to combat and encounters. This will be a long post, but stick with me, there’s a lot to cover.

Over the course of the past year we have been talking about addon changes, but that communication has been spread across multiple videos, posts, interviews, and ongoing conversations with addon authors. This fragmentation has contributed to confusion and concern across the community. The main goal of this article is to dispel as much of this confusion as possible and, hopefully, provide reassurance around these planned changes.

To be clear, it is entirely natural for players who have spent countless hours experiencing Azeroth through the lens of their favorite addons to feel nervous about big changes to that ecosystem. While some players who use few or no addons may be shrugging their shoulders, for many others, this may be the single largest change an expansion has ever made to World of Warcraft. We take none of this lightly.



Addon Disarmament: Why?

So, if we know this is a risky change, why are we making it?

For over twenty years now, the customizability of the World of Warcraft User Interface (UI) has been a pillar of the game, allowing players to use addons to tailor the look and feel of the game to suit their preferences. Numerous improvements to the base UI over the years have been inspired and informed by these community efforts. But the power we give to addon authors has always come with the risk of tools that can distort moment-to-moment gameplay, which has led the development team to restrict addons’ capabilities several times over the years.

In past incidents, we typically were able to address issues by limiting addons’ access to some specific functionality (e.g. addons automatically selecting abilities and targets in the game’s early days, or using player positions and clever math to build “radar” overlays a decade later). This time around, however, the cause for concern is subtler and more pervasive. Over the past few expansions, the community has increasingly shifted from a focus on addons that display information in a particular way, to addons that process that information to drive combat decisions and recommendations. As an RPG with cast times and cooldowns governing most actions, a huge portion of “skill” in WoW has always rested in moment-to-moment decision-making. By its nature, a computer with access to complete information about the current combat state in WoW (allies’ and enemies’ buffs and debuffs, active casts, cooldown state, health, and more) will be able to make the correct decision far faster than any human, and can do so with unerring accuracy.

Such addons move beyond the realm of personal preference, offering an objective advantage in moment-to-moment combat. As a result, players often will be told to download specific addons to improve their class performance, or to defeat a specific encounter. Guilds—or even pickup groups—commonly require the use of specific addons for mid-combat coordination. While we have never designed FOR addons, in the sense of making a specific encounter or class mechanic with the intent that players would write addons to solve a given puzzle, we have inevitably had to design AROUND them for the past several expansions. We have to accept that even in non-cutting-edge content, a majority of players will turn to any available tools to make things easier.

For example, when we design a boss in a Normal or Heroic difficulty raid, we have a tuning target in mind. While we risk causing frustration if we overshoot the mark, when we release an encounter that puts up very little resistance, we often get feedback that the boss was unsatisfying. In a similar vein, when we’re designing a class mechanic, we’re trying to express class fantasy while also offering engaging moment-to-moment gameplay. But with addons instantly solving a raid coordination challenge or collapsing a nuanced combat decision into a simple binary, we would get feedback, supported by data, that our design felt flat. And so we would add an extra layer of complexity to a class mechanic, or tighten an encounter’s tuning to give players less time to react, in order to deliver the level of challenge and engagement that players are expecting. But that shift has left people who prefer not to use these addons at a clear disadvantage, making WoW less approachable in the process.

And so we are looking to level the playing field. The guiding philosophy for our approach is straightforward: Addons should no longer offer a competitive advantage in WoW combat. They should remain as robust tools for aesthetic customization and personalized presentation of information, but they should not be able to make a player more likely to succeed in combat against an encounter or another player. I’ve seen discussion around the word “competitive,” with some understandably noting that they aren’t playing in the MDI or trying to get onto the raid Hall of Fame or arena leaderboards, and wondering why a design shift about “competitive advantage” should apply to them. But the consequences of addons’ impact creep into all facets of the game, and this uneven playing field is experienced by all players, whether someone is trying to defeat Dimensius on Normal difficulty with their friends-and-family guild, trying to get a foothold in Mythic+, or trying to be the best of the best.



Addon Disarmament: What’s Changing?

In pursuing these philosophical goals, we have tried to take a surgical approach that limits addons’ ability to process information, with the least possible impact on their ability to display it. Our engineering team has been regularly sharing updates to the API (short for Application Programming Interface—essentially the functions that addon authors can use to access and manipulate WoW UI data) with addon authors, but a simplified explanation of what we’re changing is as follows: Information about the current combat state is designated as a “secret value” that can be displayed by addons, but not “known” by them. In essence, combat events are in a black box; addons can change the size or shape of the box, and they can paint it a different color, but what they can’t do is look inside the box. So in Midnight, addons can still change the location of your buffs or debuffs, and the size and shape of the associated frames; they can change the size and shape and texture of enemy nameplates and cast bars; and many similar UI elements. But they can’t “know” with certainty whether you or your target have a specific debuff currently active, or what the cooldown of a given ability is.

We debuted our alpha test with the strictest version of this ruleset, wanting to avoid a frustrating cat-and-mouse situation with addon authors pointing out loopholes in our logic and us needing to keep tightening things down to preserve a level playing field. Whereas we have historically disabled all addons in early weeks of expansion alpha testing, this time we invited numerous addon developers to the first wave of our test. We wanted to give them a head start on updating their addons and to hear early feedback on pain points. That input has been invaluable so far and led us to loosen restrictions in numerous areas that were causing needless collateral damage.

Even with this more focused approach, we knew that limiting addons’ ability to parse combat events in real time would have a significant impact on a wide range of popular and benign addons, such as damage meters that offer immediate insight into performance, boss ability timers that have been part of raiding since the very earliest days of WoW, and tools that make the game accessible to players with a range of disabilities. So alongside the “secret values” project, our team has also been working on building up native solutions in many of these areas, as well as creating new API hooks to allow addon authors to access protected information in ways that don’t risk competitive integrity.

We have been rolling out base UI features over the course of the year, and that will continue during Midnight beta:

  • The Legacy of Arathor content update (11.1.7) introduced the Assisted Highlight and One-Button Rotation tools to help players learn new specializations and improve overall accessibility.
  • We implemented an early working version of a Cooldown Manager in the11.1.5 content update, knowing that it needed a lot of iteration but wanting to ensure that we were getting all the needed feedback in a live environment; Midnight will feature a much-refined version.
  • Midnight includes a new Boss Warnings system which allows players to see which boss mechanics are upcoming, while leaving the choice of how to handle them in players’ hands.
  • We are in the process of adding a range of native accessibility improvements, such as a built-in Combat Audio Alerts system that allows players to use Text to Speech and other audio cues for everything from player health to common combat events.
  • Over the course of beta, we will be releasing improvements to our raid frames for healers, a built-in Damage Meters tool with server-side validation, and more.

While we work on limiting the ability of addons to give a high-end performance advantage, we want to ensure that the baseline WoW experience is as approachable and accessible as ever.

We know that if we are limiting addons’ functionality, we need to give all players the information they need to succeed, and we need to tune our game accordingly. Along with much clearer visual and audio telegraphs, that may also mean having an extra second or two to react to a mechanic, or fewer things occurring simultaneously to keep cognitive load manageable. Our end goal is for any given piece of content in Midnight (a Mythic 10 dungeon, a Normal difficulty raid boss, a Tier 8 Delve, etc.) to be roughly as challenging as it was in prior expansions, but for that challenge to be more fairly distributed across the playerbase.



Why Are Some Cosmetic Addons Breaking?

I’d like to take a moment to address a technical nuance here: Many players have expressed confusion at seeing reports of some popular cosmetic addons no longer functioning as expected in Midnight. If we are only focusing on combat calculations, why are we seemingly breaking an addon that only changes the appearance of player and target frames? That is never our intent, but there are a few reasons why that might be the case currently in Midnight test builds.

The myriad authors who have created addons for WoW over the years have each chosen from among countless different approaches to structuring their code. As a result, two addons that provide nearly identical player-facing functionality might be quite dissimilar under the hood, and thus be affected very differently by the changes coming in Midnight. Some addons can and will work just fine in Midnight, but they have yet to be updated by their author; the work that they need to do may be very straightforward or may take a more significant amount of time. Every expansion in WoW’s history has required tweaks to all but the simplest of addons (thus the “out of date addons” popup with each new major patch). Other addons, however, rely on implementations that don’t merely re-skin pieces of the WoW UI, but rather rebuild them from scratch using raw data about the current combat state. Unfortunately, that particular approach (while by no means inherently wrong) has limitations under our new “secret values” system. While there are some areas where we cannot bypass these limitations without opening the door to computational logic, we are trying to do everything possible to minimize collateral damage. For example, recognizing that many players enjoy abstract and custom ways of representing their current count of Runes on a Death Knight, or Holy Power on a Paladin, we recently made all class secondary resources fully non-secret.

We are committed to continuing to work with addon developers and with the community at large to provide support for robust customization within this new framework.



Addon Disarmament: Why Now?

Another common question I’ve heard is: Why do this now? Why not wait until all our built-in functionality is fully polished and has had multiple rounds of feedback?

When I first started talking about our concerns with the impact of addons on the modern game nearly a year ago, we were still evaluating the feasibility of a solution, as well as the right timeframe. But we also wanted to gauge community sentiment around the general issue. WoW’s history is littered with examples of the dev team trying to solve perceived “problems” that most players weren’t particularly concerned about, and we wanted to reassure ourselves that we weren’t headed down that same path here. We were happy to see a lot of positive reactions to the discussion. I’m not going to pretend that there was unanimous support, but the average take was something along the lines of, “It would be great if addons weren’t required, but I’m not sure I trust Blizzard to pull it off.” And that’s very fair—this is a huge and challenging project, and I don’t expect blind faith in the absence of results.

Convinced that we were on the right track with the aims of the project, we shifted to building a roadmap of what it would take to pull off this transformation. The team found that progress on the UI engineering front was moving faster than expected, both in terms of the “secret values” system, and in terms of implementing some of the replacements we knew we’d need. That made readiness for the launch of Midnight a real possibility.

These changes pretty much have to be made on an expansion boundary, allowing us to build a full slate of content and systems that are meant for a post-addon-disarmament world. Trying to ask players to relearn content mid-expansion without the tools they were using the day before would be a sure recipe for unhappiness. And no matter how much we improve our native UI, we can’t build mechanics that are trivially solvable by addons and expect that players won’t use those tools so long as they still function.

In the end, we were faced with the decision of either signing up for a couple more years of designing our content around powerful addons in ways that make it impossible for us to serve our whole community, or moving forward now and finding solutions within this new paradigm. And so addon disarmament is coming with Midnight, and the team is fully committed to giving the community all the support required, tweaking the logic around what is restricted, and making new access points available to addon developers, in order to make this transition successful.



Addon Disarmament: What’s Next?

As we kick off beta, we’re excited to see a ton of new players get access to Midnight content, but we’re especially eager to see structured testing of the endgame. The changes to addons don’t come in a vacuum; they are complemented by a new approach to building raid encounters, dungeon pulls, combat mechanics, and more. So we are looking forward to seeing players have that holistic experience, and we are looking for feedback not just on our UI or evolving addon capabilities, but on aspects of endgame combat that might feel unclear or unfair without some of the tools you are accustomed to using.

We’re going to be watching closely and listening to feedback throughout the beta. To us, the “Beta” designation means that we have the entirety of the game’s content ready for testing, but it is far from an endpoint to Midnight development. We will be agile and adaptive in close partnership with our community as we roll out regular updates in the weeks and months ahead, improving our base UI experience, adjusting tuning or presentation of mechanics, and adding new functionality for addon developers.

Thank you for taking the time to read through this. I understand that this amount of change can be scary, and that it’s natural to worry that the long-term benefits aren’t worth the short-term disruption. We’re going to do everything possible to ensure that your experience with Midnight is a great one, that customization and self-expression remain hallmarks of WoW’s UI, and that the game is more approachable than ever.

Ion Hazzikostas
Game Director



Read through our previous article How Midnight’s Upcoming Game Changes Will Impact Combat Addons for additional insights.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Combat Philosophy and Addon Disarmament in Midnight started by Lumy View original post
Comments 99 Comments
  1. SL1200's Avatar
    Blizzard is just putting their heads down and running with this. I hate it when they do these things.
  1. Flarelaine's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Xisa View Post
    Ion can have the wrong opinion about this all he wants - his actions are on the bubble of shattering the entire long-term dedicated playerbase this game has.
    Been playing since Vanilla.

    Will not quit over this.
  1. Snakepit's Avatar
    Sometimes (even if more rarely) Blizz does get it right. I remember when they added the Ping feature - most people (including me) were like "this is useless AND will also get abused to death by people in pugs and will be annoying spam nightmare". Turned out to be SUPER useful, not abused and overall one of the best additions to the game imo. So let's hope they'll eventually get the stock UI right and things will not be as dire.
  1. Osmeric's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SL1200 View Post
    Blizzard is just putting their heads down and running with this. I hate it when they do these things.
    I remember when casuals were told it was Blizzard's game, not theirs, and to quit if you don't like it.
  1. Glorious Leader's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    If even Blizzard admit this kind of feedback, it must be an even bigger deal than people think:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    when we release an encounter that puts up very little resistance, we often get feedback that the boss was unsatisfying
    This indicates that contrary to what some people on certain forums may purport, people by and large don't actually much like pushover content.
    Thats not at all what this indicates. It merely indicates they are sensitive to this concern thats it. That feedback could be from literally one person for all we know.
  1. SoleQueen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Right now, if you actually logged in on beta, you would see that you can recreate 95% of elvui and plater functions with like 3 addons, so no idea what the "long-term dedicated playerbase" would quit over.
    This right here is what gets me. because people are crying, kicking and screaming, meanwhile most of the addons I use by choice are working without any issues. It's mainly all the ones that I get forced to download that stopped working.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostile View Post
    Considering this is "hitting hardest" on mythic raiders who arent exactly fans of 400 auras per raid, nah, we're not quiting.
    literally this, players who are good at the game but feel like they need to have these tools are mostly actually supportive of these changes, It really feels like it's just people who are scared they wont be able to play well without the tools that seem to be doing the most bitching about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Thats not at all what this indicates. It merely indicates they are sensitive to this concern thats it. That feedback could be from literally one person for all we know.
    If it was from 1 person they wouldn't mention it, it being mentioned is a sign that they get it from a LOT of people.

    Remember gallywix RWF... so many people had a tantrum because it ended sooner than they would have liked and started saying the boss was a joke even though most of them would not have ever even killed it themselves.
  1. Biomega's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Thats not at all what this indicates. It merely indicates they are sensitive to this concern thats it. That feedback could be from literally one person for all we know.
    Yeah I'm sure Blizzard is getting 1-guy'd here, mhmmm

    Though I suppose it's possible I am. Right now.
  1. Glorious Leader's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    This right here is what gets me. because people are crying, kicking and screaming, meanwhile most of the addons I use by choice are working without any issues. It's mainly all the ones that I get forced to download that stopped working.

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    literally this, players who are good at the game but feel like they need to have these tools are mostly actually supportive of these changes, It really feels like it's just people who are scared they wont be able to play well without the tools that seem to be doing the most bitching about it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If it was from 1 person they wouldn't mention it, it being mentioned is a sign that they get it from a LOT of people.

    Remember gallywix RWF... so many people had a tantrum because it ended sooner than they would have liked and started saying the boss was a joke even though most of them would not have ever even killed it themselves.
    If "so many" as a sample size is determined by forum complaints then i still question its relevance as feedback. Okay its not one. Its two. The assertion that it must be an appreciable amount of players is not very well supported.
  1. SoleQueen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    If "so many" as a sample size is determined by forum complaints then i still question its relevance as feedback. Okay its not one. Its two. The assertion that it must be an appreciable amount of players is not very well supported.
    You don't really need to support information that is given as fact. I'm not sure what you think is happening but Blizzard doesn't just outright lie about what feedback they receive and I don't really understand why you think they would, it doesn't make a lot of sense for them as a developer that relies on subscriptions and cash shop sales for money to lie about what players want. Do you really think that players want bosses to be all patchwerk style encounters? Because it seems to me like that is what you're suggesting here by implying that they are lying about feedback.
  1. WowIsDead64's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Regardless of the "true reason", it has always been ridiculous that in order to play the game you need to mod it.
    Problem is - different players have different tastes. That's why modding - is big part of game's success. And it's obvious, that removing modding and giving standard interface to everyone => direct way to fail. But who cares, if M$ thinks, that console release => massive profit. And that Wow release on XBox would make it popular vs competitors like PS. Real truth - it won't. Again. Consoles had their niche back in old times, when console was about hardware acceleration for graphics and sound + games, perfectly optimized for that hardware, that allowed console games to jump above their heads. For example NES had 16bit quality at beginning of 90s and PS1, that was equivalent to 40MHz 386/486, competed to Pentiums. But now consoles are vendor-locked PCs with restricted controls and overpriced exclusive games. Do we really need them?
  1. Glorious Leader's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    You don't really need to support information that is given as fact. I'm not sure what you think is happening but Blizzard doesn't just outright lie about what feedback they receive and I don't really understand why you think they would, it doesn't make a lot of sense for them as a developer that relies on subscriptions and cash shop sales for money to lie about what players want. Do you really think that players want bosses to be all patchwerk style encounters? Because it seems to me like that is what you're suggesting here by implying that they are lying about feedback.
    I never said the feedback was a lie, Im sure they did receive it. The contention I have is that it was particularly widespread. The original post I quoted that it must be a prevailing sentiment as opposed to the developers simple being sensitive to the concern.
  1. Duese's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    Holy fuck dude. The debuffs go on random people -> The debuffs are random. Way to not even begin to try and critically think and consider what I'm saying.

    We're clearly talking about different debuffs, because unlike your video-watching, I was literally progging this boss on Mythic 2 weeks ago, and the mechanic I'm talking about, the weakaura literally assigned us different locations based on world markers and who had the debuff.

    Also, pointing at a private aura, ya know, the system added because addons were solving too many mechanics, as some kind of proof that addons don't solve mechanics is certainly an argument-style


    The difference(in your example) is that one is a human saying it. That's it.
    WHAT DEBUFF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THEN?!?! I can't read your mind but apparently that's what I'm supposed to do here since whatever you think you are talking about isn't what you are writing down.

    So, my previous post to you still stands and you are more than welcome to address it. Rather than stroke your epeen about your supposed mythic progression, take the time to actually put together an actual response that actually makes sense.

    Further to that, when you say "a human is saying it", you are admitting the there's nothing actually wrong with getting the information and that the information is still going to be put right in front of the player. You just destroyed the entire argument you are making to remove addons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    You’re mixing up two different things and treating them like they can’t coexist:

    - Blizzard is responsible for the design problems.

    - Addons change how those problems are experienced and how urgently Blizzard fixes them.



    Both are true. Blizzard created the flaws, yes — but addons mask those flaws in practice. When players bypass a problem with third-party tools, the visible urgency of that problem drops. That doesn’t remove Blizzard’s responsibility; it affects their prioritization. That’s the entire point you keep missing.
    How am I missing the point when I point out that the second one is still Blizzard's problem, not an addon problem?

    You are making excuses for Blizzard.

    Your example about older mechanics being redesigned and no longer needing addons actually reinforces my argument: Blizzard fixed those mechanics because the flaws were directly experienced by players and couldn’t be bypassed with community scripting. When a design problem is universally felt, Blizzard is forced to redesign it. When addons neutralize it, that pressure weakens. It’s cause and effect, not a contradiction.
    So Blizzard CAN fix the problems but they choose not to?

    Say it with me now, that's a Blizzard problem, not an addon problem.

    You also reacted to obvious hyperbole as if it were a literal claim. When I said “seven million WeakAuras,” that wasn’t a statistic — it was exaggeration to illustrate how bloated and dependency-heavy the WA ecosystem has become. Treating that as a factual claim and then building part of your argument around it is exactly why you’re missing the nuance of what I’m saying.
    NO SHIT YOU WERE EXAGGERATING. Did you even read my comment? I told you that I saw it as an exaggeration. But here we are again with you being the same person from the start who was so immature that you couldn't even read my comments. Why can't you just realize that arrogantly ignoring other people's comments isn't going to accomplish anything.

    If you take rhetorical emphasis literally, there’s no way to have a proper debate with you. And if you can’t even recognise hyperbole in service of making a point, you have zero chance of correctly understanding anything an actual developer says.
    Read. The. Comment.

    And I want to point out, you just completely ignored the entire argument I made there with your little deflection that made it obvious you didn't read what I said.

    As for the quote you posted from Ion, I have one thing to say:

    ADDONS ARE NOT GOING AWAY. ONLY COMBAT ADDONS THAT EFFECTIVELY AUTOMATE CALLOUTS ARE. HE WAS CLEARLY TALKING ABOUT ALL ADDONS, AND THAT’S NOT WHAT IS GETTING TAKEN AWAY, SO YES — YOU ARE LITERALLY INTERPRETING IT WRONG.
    YOU DO NOT GET TO CHANGE WHAT HE SAID BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT YOUR NARRATIVE. HE LITERALLY SPELLED OUT THE ADDONS THAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT AND THEY WERE COMBAT ADDONS.

    On top of that, you keep insisting that acknowledging Blizzard’s responsibility must somehow mean addons have no role at all in the state of the game. That’s a false binary. Blizzard is responsible for encounter clarity and addons influenced how those clarity issues were handled, ignored, or postponed. Responsibility doesn’t erase influence.
    More excuses. I don't care about excuses. Why can't you realize this? There's literally nothing that prevented them from fixing the problems with the ecounters. They CHOSE not to fix them. It wasn't the addons that caused them to CHOOSE not to do it.

    Do you have any evidence that addons PREVENTED Blizzard from fixing encounters? You have no problems highlighting that addons made Blizzard CHOOSE not to fix encounters, but them choosing not to fix them doesn't mean that it's the addons fault.

    You’re also being silly when you compare combat addons to Discord, raid markers, or boss bars. Voice chat and markers coordinate people; combat addons automate interpretation, prediction, and decision-making. Those aren’t equivalents, and pretending they are doesn’t strengthen your argument.
    And here it is. This is where you make it absolutely clear once again that you have ZERO CLUE what people are using addons for. This is exactly the problem with this discussion because you make these claims that are so grossly ignorant that it's clear you shouldn't be in this discussion at all.

    The vast majority of all addons don't "automate interpretation, prediction, and decision-making". Go ahead, actually look through the addons being used in Manaforge right now. Do you know what almost every single one is doing? Coordination. "Group 1 to Star". "Melee to Green." It's the same role that raid markers, discord and other coordination avenues are doing.

    This is a fundamental problem with your argument. You don't have a clear line of what you don't allow and do allow. The arguments you are making absolutely apply to everything from raid markers to discord. You can call it ridiculous, but it's not, it's just not ignoring how your position applies.

    You keep implying that I’m saying addons “cause” Blizzard’s design issues or that blizzard can't fix things because of addons. I’m not. Blizzard causes the issues; addons influence how visible and urgent those issues appear in live gameplay. That’s not deflection — it’s the actual dynamic that’s existed for two decades. Blizzard don't fix them because currently a lot of the time the community does.
    No, I'm not saying addons cause Blizzard's design issues. Blizzard causes the design issues. You are ABSOLUTELY ARGUING that Blizzard ISN'T fixing them because of addons. You are unequivocally making excuses for why Blizzard is choosing NOT to fix addons.

    You’re interpreting every disagreement as dishonesty. I’m simply not reaching the same conclusion you are, and instead of engaging with the logic of my position, you’re insisting that “you didn’t address my points” because I didn’t arrive at the answer you expect.
    I'm insisting that you aren't addressing the points becauser YOU AREN'T ADDRESSING THE POINTS. You didn't even GIVE an answer. If you are going to lie about what you are doing, then don't be surprised when you get called out as a liar.

    I understand your argument. I just don’t agree with it. And that’s all this comes down to. I have no changed my position, at all since the start of this conversation, your original post still was not worth reading, and so far I'm seeing no reason to talk to you because you have demonstrated that you can't be rational, logical or level headed.. I know you are really angry about this but you need to get a grip and come to terms with the fact that some of the combat addons you use are going..
    I don't care if you change your position. My entire purpose was to highlight that you are not arguing with any logic at all. I did that. Your entire position has been reduced down to nothing more than making excuses for Blizzard. You keep saying it over and over and I have to thank you for making it so obvious. When you say Blizzard CHOOSES not to fix problems because of addons, you are admitting that addons are the excuse, not the problem.

    Even worse though, throughout these posts, you've done the same thing to me. You've made excuse after excuse to not have to address the points that I've made. You literally can't even support your own positions against mine and yet somehow still claim that my original comment wasn't even worse it. It's really cute and it just makes your downfall so much more hilarious.

    Let's just walk through the logic one more time since you can't seem to figure it out:

    Blizzard creates a poor encounter design.
    Blizzard chooses not to fix poor encounter design.
    Blizzard is the problem.

    It's so simple when you remove the excuses that you are making for them.


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    dude this guy is so scared that he wont be able to play without these addons, you can see it in his responses I'm checking out from the convo good luck.[/QUOTE]

    Sorry, I just actually understand what's happening and I'm not simping for blizzard like you are. And I'll still be better than you after this, if I'm still even playing at all. It's just more evidence to show you don't actually understand what addons are doing in game.
  1. Stickiler's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    Further to that, when you say "a human is saying it", you are admitting the there's nothing actually wrong with getting the information and that the information is still going to be put right in front of the player. You just destroyed the entire argument you are making to remove addons.
    My whole argument is that it's fine, as long as a player is saying it. I didn't destroy any part of my argument, cos that's been my argument the whole time. In fact Blizzard is also fine with it as long as a human is saying it, just not if it's automated via an Addon.
  1. Duese's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    My whole argument is that it's fine, as long as a player is saying it. I didn't destroy any part of my argument, cos that's been my argument the whole time. In fact Blizzard is also fine with it as long as a human is saying it, just not if it's automated via an Addon.
    Yes, you did. There is no advantage between a playing saying it or an addon it. If an addon can do something that a player can't, then that would support your position, but as it stands, the addon is doing nothing different than what the players can.

    And let's go ahead and remind you that Blizzard allows boss timers! So, they are also fine with the game announcing it as well.

    So, your position isn't even supported by Blizzard.

    I also noticed you abandoned your argument about the debuffs. Guess you were just full of crap there too.

    Once again, the fundamental problem with your position is that there is no clear line between what violates YOUR beliefs and what doesn't. This is exactly why you need to take some time and actually LEARN what you are trying to argue so that you can actually make a strong argument instead of the desperation you are posting now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    You don't really need to support information that is given as fact. I'm not sure what you think is happening but Blizzard doesn't just outright lie about what feedback they receive and I don't really understand why you think they would, it doesn't make a lot of sense for them as a developer that relies on subscriptions and cash shop sales for money to lie about what players want. Do you really think that players want bosses to be all patchwerk style encounters? Because it seems to me like that is what you're suggesting here by implying that they are lying about feedback.
    Just a reminder, your buddy Ion literally said that covenant locking in Shadowlands was a success and they were happy with how it turned out despite massive negative feedback stemming from the first beta where it was announced. This is where the entire meme about "pulling the ripcord" came from because he said it IN SL BETA.

    Yes, Blizzard absolutely lies about feedback. Let's look at other examples because this is how I make my point as opposed to your belief that you "don't need to support information that is given as a fact".

    The wow community had been complaining about cross faction play for years until Ion finally caved on it literally admitting that the teams "stubbornness and traditionalism" caused it to stay in the game far longer than their data supported keeping it in. We saw the same thing with Azerite Armor, Torghast, Island Expeditions, Warfronts, etc. To put it bluntly, there is so much evidence that Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback until it's far too late than there is that they listen to feedback as it's happening.

    But you don't care. You'll run away from this argument like you ran away from the other argument. That's what you do. I'm half convinced that you are Ion himself which would explain so many things.
  1. Stickiler's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    Yes, you did. There is no advantage between a playing saying it or an addon it. If an addon can do something that a player can't, then that would support your position, but as it stands, the addon is doing nothing different than what the players can.

    And let's go ahead and remind you that Blizzard allows boss timers! So, they are also fine with the game announcing it as well.

    So, your position isn't even supported by Blizzard.

    I also noticed you abandoned your argument about the debuffs. Guess you were just full of crap there too.

    Once again, the fundamental problem with your position is that there is no clear line between what violates YOUR beliefs and what doesn't. This is exactly why you need to take some time and actually LEARN what you are trying to argue so that you can actually make a strong argument instead of the desperation you are posting now.
    The fact that you think there's no difference between a player saying it and an addon saying it is mod-boggling, honestly. Should we give up on players actually playing the game, and just everyone use a bot which plays every game for us? After all, there's no difference between a player making decisions about how the game/fight should go compared to an Addon, right?


    The line is clear, obvious, and definitively stated multiple times. If a player is deciding the strategy based on the game state, it's fine. If it's an addon deciding the strategy based on the game state, that's not fine.
  1. SoleQueen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    Just a reminder, your buddy Ion literally said that covenant locking in Shadowlands was a success and they were happy with how it turned out despite massive negative feedback stemming from the first beta where it was announced. This is where the entire meme about "pulling the ripcord" came from because he said it IN SL BETA.

    Yes, Blizzard absolutely lies about feedback. Let's look at other examples because this is how I make my point as opposed to your belief that you "don't need to support information that is given as a fact".

    The wow community had been complaining about cross faction play for years until Ion finally caved on it literally admitting that the teams "stubbornness and traditionalism" caused it to stay in the game far longer than their data supported keeping it in. We saw the same thing with Azerite Armor, Torghast, Island Expeditions, Warfronts, etc. To put it bluntly, there is so much evidence that Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback until it's far too late than there is that they listen to feedback as it's happening.

    But you don't care. You'll run away from this argument like you ran away from the other argument. That's what you do. I'm half convinced that you are Ion himself which would explain so many things.
    Using 5–8 year-old design philosophy as the basis of your argument makes it hard to take anything you're saying seriously.

    Just to be clear, I'm not 'running' from this discussion — I'm choosing not to waste time. Your takes don't line up with current reality, and I’m not interested in debating someone who’s arguing from a fantasy version of the game.

    And no, 'players not enjoying something' ≠ 'feature failure.' The fact you think those two things are equivalent says enough.

    I'm stepping out of this conversation for my own sanity. I'm blocking you so we don't keep going in circles. Please stop tagging me.
  1. Duese's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by SoleQueen View Post
    Using 5–8 year-old design philosophy as the basis of your argument makes it hard to take anything you're saying seriously.

    Just to be clear, I'm not 'running' from this discussion — I'm choosing not to waste time. Your takes don't line up with current reality, and I’m not interested in debating someone who’s arguing from a fantasy version of the game.

    And no, 'players not enjoying something' ≠ 'feature failure.' The fact you think those two things are equivalent says enough.

    I'm stepping out of this conversation for my own sanity. I'm blocking you so we don't keep going in circles. Please stop tagging me.
    Look, he's running away again. AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

    You can lie to yourself all you want, but the only reality here is that my arguments are right there and you are the one who can't be bothered to reply. It's just obvious that you realize that you don't have an argument and so your only recourse is to run away.

    Even now, the whole 5-8 year old design philosophy is nothing but a deflection where you don't even address the argument but presume you can just ignore it and it will go away. Well, it's still there even if you don't like it. So, either address it or I'll just keep highlighting how you run away.

    And no, 'players not enjoying something' ≠ 'feature failure.' The fact you think those two things are equivalent says enough.
    That has got to be the most absolutely ridiculous thing that you've said and you've said some absolutely ridiculous things.

    Let's go ahead and walk you through this. The entire purpose of a video game is to entertain people. If players aren't being entertained by it, then it's failing. You don't succeed when the entire purpose of your product is to entertain when you aren't actually entertaining.

    You really are just a nutjob.

    But hey, block me. All you are doing is proving me right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    The fact that you think there's no difference between a player saying it and an addon saying it is mod-boggling, honestly. Should we give up on players actually playing the game, and just everyone use a bot which plays every game for us? After all, there's no difference between a player making decisions about how the game/fight should go compared to an Addon, right?


    The line is clear, obvious, and definitively stated multiple times. If a player is deciding the strategy based on the game state, it's fine. If it's an addon deciding the strategy based on the game state, that's not fine.
    Why is it different between a player saying it and an addon saying it? You don't actually explain why it's different at all. You just pretend that insulting me is some kind of argument. Sorry, but you need to do a hell of a lot better than that. I'm really sick and tired of people like you who refuse to actually support your own positions and then berate anyone who doesn't blindly agree with you.

    So, either support your position or realize that you don't have a strong argument.

    Here, let's walk through this again. You are suggesting that a notification to a player means that the notification is playing the game for them, then it doesn't matter if it's coming from a human or an addon because based on your logic, that notification is playing the game for them. I'll dumb it down for you so you can see the problem with your position. I'm a player in the raid. The addon tells me to move to green circle. Your argument is that the addon is playing the game for me. Conversely, if a human says to move to green circle, based on your logic, this would mean that the raid leader is playing the game for me?

    Like I said, you need to actually make a compelling argument for this because presuming to say "herp derp nut uh" isn't an argument.

    The line is clear, obvious, and definitively stated multiple times. If a player is deciding the strategy based on the game state, it's fine. If it's an addon deciding the strategy based on the game state, that's not fine.
    DBM never decided strategy based on the game state. It literally just presented information for you to make the decision for yourself.

    Outside of Fractillus in Manaforge which is unanimously a horrible fight, the weakauras being used never decided strategy based on the game state. The weakauras took a PREDETERMINED STRATEGY and notified the player of that strategy. Again, this is no different than a raid leader saying "Group 1 to star". That's literally what 80% of the weakauras in Manaforge were doing. The exceptions to this were weakauras that did things like highlighted players with major debuffs and then helped track the duration of the debuff or helped to not overlap dispels, both of which are things that are incredibly important to the encounters that the current UI and encounter design is poorly communicating to players.

    So, if this is what you are saying is the line, then why are combat addons being blocked when they aren't crossing that line?

    I need examples. I need ACTUAL EVIDENCE. I'm sick and tired of people making arguments that can't be backed up in any way.

    I think your entire argument is completely unsupported and so far, you've given ZERO examples and ZERO real world support of your position.
  1. Tidemoo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    You cultists have been saying "console release soon!!!!!!!!!" for over a decade now

    it's not happening

    lmao
    It's coming, there is no scenario in our lifetime that would not have a console release for wow, none.
  1. Rageonit's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Duese View Post
    Why is it different between a player saying it and an addon saying it?
    There are at least several differences at play.
    1) An addon can issue multiple personal orders at the same time: for example in Ovinax fight, each players that has to go to a certain egg is given the order separately; thanks to that, it can issue orders faster and more efficiently than any human ever could.
    2) Players make mistakes, addons don't.
    3) Addons are faster than humans, solving mechanical problems instantly; whereas a human needs time to see who is being targeted by a certain mechanic and issue orders based on the actual game state, only after analysing the situation (which takes time).

    That's of course from the raid lead perspective; you could argue that for the players doing the mechanic, it's no different if they are issued orders by an addon or a human. But you base that on a very simple example that's not really realistic in modern WoW: "move to green" or "group 1 to star". No actual boss fight plays as simple as that. More often than not you have several players being targetted by a mechanic, and an addon - as argued above - can issue commands swiftly and with no room for error.

    Now question is: could a human issue orders on Ovinax fast enough that the players don't have to make any decisions themselves...? Because again: with no help of an addon, the lead has to identify marked players and, one by one, start issuing orders who goes where. You have only so many seconds to do it before time runs out and you wipe due to someone not being on the egg on time. So with no addon to help, an interesting situation occurs: players are now motivated to make the decisions themselves, at least to a certain degree. Since I know where John is going and where Jane is going, I can start moving already to eggs that were not assigned yet. Maybe me and some other dudes can position properly even before our names are called out.

    You could probably find a multitude of similar examples. You say that there's no difference if the order is given by an addon or lead; but you aren't taking into account that a human can't do it as swiftly as an addon, so in many, many situations positioning your whole raid through voice commands is simply not realistic - at least some decisions have to be taken by actual players; and raid lead can give only rough commands, or react to mistakes to correct them.

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