Cataclysm Screenshots, Blue posts

the way they talk about stuff they'll finally just let us do one instance per week and make fish feasts only cost 1 fish. X(

The reason fishing is so profitable is because people need its benefits, but don't like doing it because it feels drawn out and time consuming! this is clearly "a boneheaded decision" and must be destroyed. no money for me then.

nerf, nerf, all day long, nerf, nerf, while we sing this song!
-Blizz

Haha, the comic is great.

Originally Posted by Naylol

Why are they making 10mans harder exactly? You can't say everyone is finishing them with ease now. I'm sure most casual players don't see more than the first few bosses in ICC.

Yea, lets keep the casuals away from the final bosses in ICC because you know what? Casuals didn't even see ANYTHING in sunwell, that actually gives the game some meaning for the hardcore group. Don't make it worse than it already is.

Originally Posted by Many

If you say there are ppl who played this game only for fun. Why ppl who want to be best. In gear, in progress etc. Why they have to suffer? And I ask again!! What is wrong on current system?? Tell me. Its becouse ppl in 25-man recieve better gear? No you just said. They play for fun, they play for content but what for they need best gear?

Fun is subjective amongst people. Like I said before, some people like to min/max, others just like to play with a small group of friends, and some like playing with a bunch of people.

You seem to be pushing people into extremes, as if someone who likes to be competitive, has to be a full on min/maxer. To be honest though, I'm guessing most people are a mix. They like to butt heads at times, but they're not necessarily going to be doing every minor thing they can do to maximize there efficiency, because in the end, they like playing to game to relax a bit.

These are people who would like this change. They aren't going to get all angry about the 10-man version of this boss being slightly easier then the 25-man version, and vice versa; but they still want to be somewhat competitive on their server.

Just remember though, there isn't much you can say right now that can prove that 10-mans will be easier than 25-mans. We literally have no idea what the differences are going to be between the two modes.

All I can say is that you should expect there to be pushover fights for both 10 and 25-man; sometimes having the extra players in a 25-man for additional slows could help you with one bosses adds, or the additional tank in a 25 might help with that extra add that you might not have an effective way of dealing with in 10-man. Really, we have no one of telling right now.

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@TobiasX: Most of what you are saying is based off of the assumption that every player is against raiding a 25-man, and that 10-mans WILL be easier come cataclysm; both which can't be proved. And as for the "Food for thought" response, that's what I'm saying here, things will change, it's hard to prove either one of us is right, I'm just trying to show people things by saying the opposite of "25-man is doomed!", because we really have no one of knowing if it is, do we?

Originally Posted by Zookz25

Fun is subjective amongst people. Like I said before, some people like to min/max, others just like to play with a small group of friends, and some like playing with a bunch of people.

You seem to be pushing people into extremes, as if someone who likes to be competitive, has to be a full on min/maxer. To be honest though, I'm guessing most people are a mix. They like to butt heads at times, but they're not necessarily going to be doing every minor thing they can do to maximize there efficiency, because in the end, they like playing to game to relax a bit.

These are people who would like this change. They're aren't going to get all angry about the 10-man version of this boss being slightly easier then the 25-man version, and vice versa; but they still want to be somewhat competitive on their server.

Just remember though, there isn't much you can say right now that can prove that 10-mans will be easier than 25-mans. We literally have no idea what the differences are going to be between the two modes.

All I can say is that you should expect there to be pushover fights for both 10 and 25-man; sometimes having the extra players in a 25-man for additional slows could help you with one boss adds, or the additional tank in a 25 might help with that extra add that you might not have an effective way of dealing with in 10-man. Really, we have no one of telling right now.

Can you pls answer my question? What is wrong on current system? (Pls tell me, i want only know what is wrong on current system with loot and with lock-out. I dont care about dificulty.)

Originally Posted by LeperHerring

That's some twisted logic, first you make 25 mans obsolete, observe that everyone does 10 mans and then conclude that it's because people want to do 10 mans instead of 25 mans. No, the reason everyone does 10 mans is because you made 25 mans obsolete, NOT because people want to do 10 mans. They could just as well make 10 mans obsolete by having them drop no useful gear, then observe that everyone does 25 mans instead and then say that obviously everyone wants to do 25 mans and not 10 mans.

If the system goes live in its current state I'd expect the server top 25 man guild (or two) to do 25 man raids, but I suspect that most of the "medium" level 25 man guilds will change to 10 man guilds. Eventually even the few 25 man guilds will die out due to lack of recruits and lack of motivation. Furthermore, I suspect that since the number of competent raid leaders will not increase (will probably decrease) while the number of 10 man guilds will increase, there will be a huge churn of 10 man fail-guilds and raiding as a whole will get significantly worse for the average raider - as a response Blizzard will nerf all the content to the ground.

I believe the system will be a mess and practically kill 25 man raiding from the game. It would be far better if Blizzard designed completely separate 10 and 25 man raids (e.g., Kara/ZA vs. SSC/TK). Blizzard has made many great 25 man fights and many great 10 man fights. They have not made a single fight that great in both 10 mand and 25 man mode.

And of course you know all of this because you built your own MMO and this happened. No wait you're a psychic? No wait...

Why does every viable raiding guild have to be 25man for WoW to be considered success? We heard this same bs right before BC.

People that like 25mans will still do 25mans. And those that want a similar experience with same loot drops will do 10's because they're tired of sitting in 25mans that have 10 competent players.

nice screen shots!

and gimme gimme gimme gimme :Pp

Casuals don't play for fun it seems, they want everything that hardcore earns but with no effort whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Many

Can you pls answer my question? What is wrong on current system? (Pls tell me, i want only know what is wrong on current system with loot and with lock-out. I dont care about dificulty.)

10 mans don't get the same bonuses as 25 mans, thats what they seem to think is wrong. The government should put Blizzard in charge maybe they can balance the world and make it an equal place for all...lol

I don't know if Blizzard lives in Disneyland or something but life isn't fair, most people struggle and live through it anyway and the rest kill themselves. Dumbing down the game more and more won't do anything but bore and run the top tier off, which will then require an even bigger dumbing down which will then run off what had become the new top tier which will then require more dumbing down....you get the point.

How did the game go from 0 to 10+ million players when it was hard to even get into a raid and now it needs to be so easy that everyone can do it with almost no effort at all?

Most human beings like a challenge, like to have something to strive for, a goal to achieve; giving the end goal to them for almost nothing will just bore most people. Why do people go and climb a mountain when they can just land on top with a damn helicopter?

I'm glad they are closing the gap, in terms of difficulty in the 10 mans. But, I still haven't seen a solid reason to run 25s. I really love 25s and thankfully my guild will continue to run 25s.

Only thing that really pisses me off is that if the focus moves to 10mans instead of 25mans, resto shamans will become useless. Since that's my main it'll be a bit problematic. I'd probably have to change to a druid or some other class that can compete in aoe healing in 10mans.

Originally Posted by Many

Can you pls answer my question? What is wrong on current system? (Pls tell me, i want only know what is wrong on current system with loot and with lock-out. I dont care about dificulty.)

Currently, I have some friends I've been wanting to play with.

Most of them just like to play with our small group of friends, and a 10-man would fit perfectly for that. Sadly, some of them hate the fact that 10-mans are basically loot-giveaways; you can't really raid 10-mans seriously, you miss out on plenty of things, including the tougher content that my friends want to compete with against others.

There, Cataclysm just made me much happier due to this change, and it's nice seeing them look forward to it.

Now, what's wrong with cataclysms system in your eyes? It's seems that people are viewing the "death" of 25-mans as a "bad thing". I'm wondering why.

I can only really speculate that it's because deep down, they like 25-man raiding, but are still willing to sacrifice what they like (specing the optimal spec for their class, even if they don't like it, for instance) to get ahead of everyone. In the end, they feel bad about the change, and therefore despise it for "forcing them" to raid in a way they don't want to.

When in reality, blizzard is trying to allow for both 10-man and 25-man raids to coincide with each other. The "forcing them" part, is just their "worse case scenario" being played out of what "might" happen.

Feels like a glass is half empty situation to me. Not to mention they are filling in a lot of missing gaps with their own preconceptions, which will only make things worse if you are seeing Cataclysm in a pessimistic view.

Originally Posted by Lumocolor

10 mans don't get the same bonuses as 25 mans, thats what they seem to think is wrong. The government should put Blizzard in charge maybe they can balance the world and make it an equal place for all...lol

I don't know if Blizzard lives in Disneyland or something but life isn't fair, most people struggle and live through it anyway and the rest kill themselves. Dumbing down the game more and more won't do anything but bore and run the top tier off, which will then require an even bigger dumbing down which will then run off what had become the new top tier which will then require more dumbing down....you get the point.

How did the game go from 0 to 10+ million players when it was hard to even get into a raid and now it needs to be so easy that everyone can do it with almost no effort at all?

Most human beings like a challenge, like to have something to strive for, a goal to achieve; giving the end goal to them for almost nothing will just bore most people. Why do people go and climb a mountain when they can just land on top with a damn helicopter?

You practicly said "All is about gear"............ Really nice.

---------- Post added 06-16-2010 at 12:38 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Mongoose19

Casuals don't play for fun it seems, they want everything that hardcore earns but with no effort whatsoever.

Totaly agree...

I think the beta is around the corner. A 1.1gb patch was deployed on the alpha servers, and hints at ptr char copy, and in the patchnote its not alpha anymore but beta. Also, every class changes were deployed and tons of audios/npcs something you expect from a beta was included.

Originally Posted by TobiasX

No.

Again, you've misunderstood what I've said. 25-man raids are easier to organize and run than 10-man raids for 1 simple, undeniable fact: There are less people to organize and keep track of. The part you seem to always miss is "keep track of" and this is not going to change in Cataclysm. Keeping 24 players organized, motivated and "on the ball" is more difficult as keeping 9 players organized, motivated and "on the ball" because there are more people present in the raid. There will be less people prepared to lead 25-man raids when they can get exactly the same reward with less than half the stress if they only go with 9 rather than 24 other people.

I have no problem with 10-man raiders having access to the same stuff as 25-man raiders, but I prefer 25-man raids and would like to continue doing them.

Oh, I get it.

But that's not so much a blizzard issue, as it is a issue with the guild, is it not?

If most of your guild is cool with just saying "No one can ever show up, let's just do 10-mans." Then that's of course what's going to happen.

The 25-mans are there for people who like to a 25-man, if people aren't willing to show up for 25-mans, they obviously don't want to do 25-mans.

Blizzard is now giving players the choice to raid with 9 other people, or 24 other people; if all of those 9 or 24 people aren't on board and pumped for raids, it's not going to happen.

Heck, last raid night we were missing about half of the raid because no one cares for ICC anymore. Even if it was only a 10 person guild, if only half of the raid cares (5 people), we still aren't going.

25-man guilds will have the upper-hand here, because if only half of the raid comes, you can still go via 10-man, where is the lose here? I only see win for both 25-man and 10-man groups. 25-mans have a viable fallback plan if people don't show, and 10-man guilds can raid competitively.

This kind of organization has nothing to do with which (10-man or 25-man) will be more difficult, which is what the min/maxing, or efficiency is about. Nor does this show that 25-mans will be less viable than 10-mans, it's all on your guilds preference. Note how I say guild, yes, everyone needs to be wanting to same thing (10 or 25-man) or it's not going to happen; a house divided anyone?

As a last added note: If you real feel that passionate about raiding in a 25-man guild, you should most likely try and find one that is staying as a 25-man guild. If you would rather min/max, you will have to wait and find out whether the 10-man or 25-man version of the raid will be easier.

(please tell me someone gets what I'm talking about, right? lol)

gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme !

It's not really a problem that Blizzard is removing better gear from 25mans.

The problem is, I quote: "Single achievement". It won't be possible to tell if some guild did 10 or 25man. Some people would raid 25man just to show others that they are good and that it's possible to kill sth on 25. But now noone will even notice. And this is fail.

Reforging
First, we looked at the recipes for Cataclysm professions and decided we had plenty of content already.

Third, the idea behind reforging is largely as a convenience feature to players. Forcing them to go to the AH or use trade chat or find a friend or roll an alt to get a specific item reforged would have added at least one more step to a process that is supposed to be pretty quick. Consider that you already have to enchant and gem most end-game pieces of armor. We didn't want reforging to over-complicate that process even more.

1. Yeah, because more content would be bad, eh? Wtf are they thinking?

2. Well, nobody wants players to have to collaborate. After all, this isn´t an MMO...oh, wait.

Now, what's wrong with cataclysms system in your eyes? It's seems that people are viewing the "death" of 25-mans as a "bad thing". I'm wondering why.

Why is it a bad thing? Because this is an MMO. MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER. Why stop at 10 players? Shouldn´t 5 friends be able to experience the same? Or three? Or two? Or everyone on his own? At some point you have to look at what this game is designed for. It used to be four playing together with others. But since 2 years it becomes more and more of a singleplayer game. Dalaran isn´t much more than a lobby to find other random and faceless people via the LFG-tool.

25/10 Man Raid Drops
I think this is one of those cases where it's not going to be possible to please everyone. Setting aside some of the folks in this thread who want to run both 10s and 25s every week to maximize reward potential, most players either prefer 10s and have no use for the 25s or want to run 25s and don't want to feel like they are being inefficient for doing so. In other words, half (I don't know if it's really half, but it makes the sentence easier to read) the community wants an incentive to run 10s and no incentive to run 25s and half the community wants the opposite. On the other hand, we feel like we need to offer both raid sizes in order to make raiding attractive to a broad swath of the community. As a result, I think it's likely that no matter what we do, proponents of each raid size will feel like we're not being fair enough to their side. It's going to be one of those hybrid vs. pure or PvE vs. PvP ongoing debates that never really get resolved because each party wants virtually the opposite of the other. (Source)

This is BS. Excuse for being lazy. Let the 10s lovers get 10s drops, and 25s lovers get 25s drops, how hard is that? Does blizzard want their entry-level employee paid with manager-level salary?

The whole "in 25man raids the individual players can slack more than in 10man raids" is just plain BS, there just is no room for slacking for anyone when you are working on 25man hardmodes such as Mimiron, Yogg+0, Freya+3, Algalon or LK, Putri, Sindra, Deathwhisper (Especially without any massive zone-wide buff).
And just one player death can really make the difference between a kill and a wipe, really.