Cataclysm -- Justice Point Drop Quantities

Originally Posted by Morlin

I hope they don't. The people that only run the daily random heroic each day will get their gear at a much, much slower pace than those that raid. And the heroics are not going to be AoE 15-20 minute grindfests where the only word said is "gogogogo". If it's become menial and aggravating, then you don't have to do it. This is a game, after all. The point is to have fun. Epic items are so easily acquired now because any heroic can be AoE'd down in 20 minutes. Not to mention that ICC, frost emblems, and the dungeon finder tool have been out for about 10 months now. Sorry, but your complaint really isn't justified unless you're saying that ICC raid heroic gear is too easily acquired now. It's still a challenge and most players won't get any of that stuff.

Except that they will become exactly the "gogogo" shit that they are now if they keep this system. Raiders who dramatically outgear them will keep doing them when they're outgeared and will be just as abusive as they are now to people who slow them down.

Originally Posted by Tizdale

As a personal experience from Alts:

Heroics Gearscore and DPS. I've been kicked from heroics for having a too low Gearscore, or because my DPS was so low compared to the fully raidgeared DPS that they said I was slowing the group down.

Now I'm not saying I perfectly know how to play that alt class, Its exactly that, an Alt..

I agree that you technically don't need raidgear if you don't need raids. But you'll never be able to compete and join a guild in your Heroics gear either that way..

Say for instance there is a new guild starting up in Cata.

They have all people in fresh gear.. then they tier up twice. Bringing them to tier 12.

Now I rejoin WoW after a 1 year break. And I try to join that guild.
What can I bring of value to that guild apart from my sunshine attitude? I'd say not much. And it'll take them a shitload of patience to drag me along and gear me up.

Or am I missing how this would be done otherwise?
I joined WoW when Naxx was released. I got a full dungeon set 2, and tried to join.. but no guild would let me in due to my gear.

Don't know, back in TBC (so, not that far), guilds would test you and know that you performed well for the gear you have at the moment. If you couldn't perform well with the gear you have, they would basically know that it doesn't matter if they brought you to upgrade it... you would still perform sub-par.

By doing what Blizzard did in WotLK, they created the gearscore monster. Most guilds/players don't have a clue how to distinguish a good player from a bad player anymore if they're not sporting the current high ilvl gear. They tell you not to improve your game, but instead your GS number... You have ppl that simply think that 5000GS was the Ulduar 25 or ToC10 normal GS...

You need to stop that start from somewhere... the best place would be this insanity of free current gear.

TY Morlin, I am glad to know at least some people understand whats going on.

To explain it VERY clearly for everyone that just can't seem to read and/or grasp the concept:

Justice Points and Valor Points are the SAME as Triumph Badges and Frost Badges!!!

You will still be able to buy old tier just like you can today.

Example:
Time Frame: First set of Raiding Instances (I.e. Naxx for WotLK)
Heroics will award you Justice Points (with VP from the Daily Heroic)
First Raid instance will get you Valor Point.
You can buy: Blues with JP, and Tier 11 with VP.

Time Frame: Second set of Raiding Instances (I.e. Ulduar)
Heroics will award JP (with VP from the Daily)
First Raid instance will award JP
Second Raid instance will award VP
You can buy: Blues and Tier 11 with JP, Tier 12 with VP

Time Frame: Third set of Raiding Instances (I.e. ToC)
Heroics will award JP (with VP from the Daily)
First & Second Raid instance will award JP
Third Raid instance will award VP
You can buy: Blues, Tier 11, and Tier 12 with JP, Tier 13 with VP

and on and on it goes... not that hard to understand

Originally Posted by Urikslargda

Right. But why should anyone be worried about who gets previous Tier epics? Epic doesn't really mean anything unless it's from the current top Tier, and in this context "current" is an ever-shifting target.

I agree with you, but I guess its the same mentality as moaning about a drop in boss HP of the previous tier when the next Tier is released. Blizzard wants everyone to see their content, and offers the Hardcore teams a good challenge.

But some people just can't handle it when their achievement is then attainable by "anyone" which is also a reason I would fully support removing the attainability of cosmetic rewards once the raid is tuned down.

By cosmetic I mean Mounts/Titles etc, items that do nothing special for your character development wise. (and no.. 310% mounts also don't count to me.)

The downgrading Epic to Rare is just game mechanics I guess. And we'll all be walking around in Epics when the next tier after T11 is released. Nothing can really be done about that I guess.

ah nice more points

Originally Posted by VanishO2

You need to stop that start from somewhere... the best place would be this insanity of free current gear.

I recall there was a time when ilevel was only visible if you had an addon... maybe they could just remove it from the game and go back to stats.. and only keep the ilevels in a secret database.

Originally Posted by Astrella

Chances are, someone that makes $25k/yr probably CAN'T afford the Porsche and will not buy it because it is out of their means. Exactly how people who only do heroics don't NEED raid gear, because they don't have the means to raid.

That's not the point of the example though. Is it wrong for someone who makes $25k/year to own a Porsche? A Porsche that is NOT new, NOT current, probably from a private sale just because they don't make as much as the person who bought the Porsche new?

Originally Posted by davesurfer

I laugh at this. I raid and plan on multiple tanks in cat. I want a 25 man and a 10 man toon. So I am a serious raider. I could care less if someone who never steps in a raid gets last tier or after a month gets one whole piece of current tier.

I have said before and will say it again, serious raiders care about THEIR progression.

Progression is about progression not standing in IF or Org saying look at me.

The day a boss I kill drops less loot so someone who doesn't raid gets some I will get mad, but until then I could care less

Exactly. People who bitch about other people getting the items they have are generally just barely above the level of the so-called "scrubs" they look down upon. Hell, a year ago they probably WERE at the level of the people they so despise now, which is even more pathetic.

You never see a river of tears coming from people who've been playing in top guilds for a long time, because those people simply do not waste their time getting all bent out of shape about what the rest of the server is doing.

Originally Posted by Tizdale

I recall there was a time when ilevel was only visible if you had an addon... maybe they could just remove it from the game and go back to stats.. and only keep the ilevels in a secret database.

With the simplification of stats this expansion I agree with this. Its much easier to tell if something is an upgrade by armor type and main stat increase (give or take mastery and equip effects/sockets).

Originally Posted by Usagi Vindaloo

In that case, what would you suggest Blizzard give heroic players to work towards after they've bought everything their Justice Points can buy (in the current tier)? What many people don't realize is that it's not about LULZ HEROIC PLAYERS NEEDZ RAIDING GEAR LULZ but more, "I want to improve my character and have a goal to work towards." Speaking as someone who used to do only heroics and Kara/ZA in BC, after a while I ran out of things to do or buy with my Badges of Justice, and it sucked... not because I wanted super duper gear, but because I no longer had something to drive me, a target to work for.

So, for those that are arguing that heroic players shouldn't get raiding gear, what would you give them instead that they can continually work towards even after they've geared up in heroic gear?

New challenging heroics with a higher lvl gear than the current heroic ones?

Think of heroics the same way you think of raids. What do you give to raiders that alread cleared the content and got their gear? New raids.

What do you give to heroic players that did the same? New heroics.

They're progressions paths. Just diferent in size and complexity. Heroics even have achievements for doing weird stuff like raids and you get a mount for finishing its "Glory of" meta!

Originally Posted by Evory

In case you didn't notice nothing changes in regard to the daily heroic, you get 75 Valor Points killing a raid boss (Well 105 on 25), you get 75 Valor Points completing the first heroic per day, likewise you get right now 2 Frost Emblems killing a raid boss, and you get 2 Frost Emblems completing the first heroic per day.

However seems it will be impossible to go back and get old tier since you'll not gain JP above 80 which seems kinda strange to me, why couldn't they just have introduced a 3rd type of points for old content, that way the new points values wouldn't have to be so high as well, oh well.

Also yes you'll be able to get 2 pieces of blue level 85 gear with JP from lvl 80 content but really big deal, will just help you gear up for heroics a bit faster.

you get JP for killing 85 heroic bosses and doing the daily dungeon

Originally Posted by mizore

TY Morlin, I am glad to know at least some people understand whats going on.

To explain it VERY clearly for everyone that just can't seem to read and/or grasp the concept:

Justice Points and Valor Points are the SAME as Triumph Badges and Frost Badges!!!

You will still be able to buy old tier just like you can today.

Example:
Time Frame: First set of Raiding Instances (I.e. Naxx for WotLK)
Heroics will award you Justice Points (with VP from the Daily Heroic)
First Raid instance will get you Valor Point.
You can buy: Blues with JP, and Tier 11 with VP.

Time Frame: Second set of Raiding Instances (I.e. Ulduar)
Heroics will award JP (with VP from the Daily)
First Raid instance will award JP
Second Raid instance will award VP
You can buy: Blues and Tier 11 with JP, Tier 12 with VP

Time Frame: Third set of Raiding Instances (I.e. ToC)
Heroics will award JP (with VP from the Daily)
First & Second Raid instance will award JP
Third Raid instance will award VP
You can buy: Blues, Tier 11, and Tier 12 with JP, Tier 13 with VP

and on and on it goes... not that hard to understand

As long as you also need the Slotted tier token from raiding the current level of progression to get your tier, I'm happy. You should have to raid to get tier. Not farm heroics each day for Frosties or Valor Points.

Originally Posted by Palegod

You never see a river of tears coming from people who've been playing in top guilds for a long time, because those people simply do not waste their time getting all bent out of shape about what the rest of the server is doing.

Yup. The "really good" raiders don't need the best or unique loot to prove they're far and above better than the rest. Though, they wouldn't object to having unique loot/titles/mounts, etc.

If you're "good" enough or have enough time, you're still going to gear out and have a different gaming experience than the guy who can get one tier piece every 2-3 weeks. Believe me, in many cases, that guy wishes he had the time/skill to do what you're doing.

Originally Posted by Tizdale

I recall there was a time when ilevel was only visible if you had an addon... maybe they could just remove it from the game and go back to stats.. and only keep the ilevels in a secret database.

Wouldn't change the fact that ppl would just say come back when you're "geared" since they can just say you can get everything by doing heroics/voa/weeklies.

Originally Posted by Cernunnos

As long as you also need the Slotted tier token from raiding the current level of progression to get your tier, I'm happy. You should have to raid to get tier. Not farm heroics each day for Frosties or Valor Points.

Well you won't be happy then as you will be able to get some tier from running heroics, at a vastly slower rate than a raider will.

What you should do is stop basing your happiness on what other people get and concentrate on YOUR in-game experience.

It's what is is, trolling about other people getting gear is pointless.. Mods should delete all the posts complaining about people getting gear seeing how Blizzard won't change it EVER.. I'm right, you're wrong /enddebate

Originally Posted by Aberration

Does the 'daily heroic' mean just the first for the day, or as many as you want?

Makes more sense for it to be just once a day.

I'm pretty sure it is safe to assume that Daily heroic means, Daily RANDOM. After the first one you get Valor (I.E. Triumph and Frost)

Originally Posted by MrCobaltBlue

Why does it matter? Its not like they'll be taking your raid spots or leeching your achievements? It just seems like getting the angry for the sake of getting angry.

It's called being an elitist.

As someone has stated already, everyone complaining is a hypocrite because they themselves used this system (which is currently how the game is) to gear themselves up. There's no difference from what they are doing with JP/VP then what is being done now with EoT/EoF.

10 man vs. 25 man doesn't seem like a big deal, but lol at them being different after saying they want it to be preference only...