Are You Insane in the Membrane?

Originally Posted by Raelbo

Perhaps the saddest thing about this nerf is that it was most likely the result of complaints by people who were upset that now they would never get to do the grind they wanted to do "some day". But in all honesty, I doubt most of those people would ever have gone and done it anyway, for exactly the same reason that they hadn't done it (or at least made some real progress) already.

The people who had a legitimate gripe were those who had already committed to the FoS, both time and gold (and gold is basically time anyway) and would not be able to finish it. I personally think that removing the ability to gain Shen'dralar rep, but allowing those who were already Shen'dralar exalted to finish up in Cata (which is what it looked like was going to happen) would have been a good compromise. What we already saw was people who were miles away dropped the idea, sold their Librams and PBD's, made a huge profit, and provided the mats for those who were close to finishing it to do so.

Now the problem is that the solution has become too lenient and devalued the title "insane" for those who already have it.

However I think a lot of the outcryers need a bit of perspective on this: Removing Shen'dralar from the requirements does not trivialise the achievement. Yes, it makes it less difficult, but it is still a lot of work.

Ultimately, whether you have to grind mobs for rep/items, or pay gold for rep, it amounts to the same thing: You are sinking time and effort into the achievement. If you put a monetary value on time spent (basically how much gold you can grind per hour), then it becomes very easy to evaluate the overall effort of Insane in the Membrane. My experience is that it was a 320 hour game time achievement of which about 80% could be bought for gold (at 500g per hour). Of that the total time devoted per part of the achievement could be divided up as follows:

• Shen'dralar: 37.5%
• Darkmoon Faire: 37.5%
• Bloodsail Buccaneers: 2.5%
• Goblins: 10%
• Ravenholdt: 12.5%

And before people start saying Shen'dralar is more difficult than this because other reps can be easily obtained for money, 80% of the Shen'dralar effort could be managed as a simple gold grind (I spent about 100 hours of game time earning gold to pay for diamonds, shards and librams, 18 hours farming Blood of Heroes and Skins of Shadow and 2 hours actually running to DM and handing in using my Argent Gruntling).

So really, removing Shen'dralar has reduced the difficulty of the FoS by 37.5% or 3/8. Most people who can do the other 5/8 would probably have been able to complete Shen'dralar anyway. That being said, I think that people who did actually get Shen'dralar to exalted do need some more recognition than just another title. I have 2 solutions:

Create a title for having Shen'dralar exalted. For example: "of the Shen'dralar"
Create a second title for being both exalted with the Shen'dralar and Insane. For example: "the Clinically Insane" or "the Utterly Insane". The second title would become the "you had be there" title and would certainly appease all those who did things the hard way.
alternatively
Award a special mount for being exalted with Shen'dralar. Since they are Elves, maybe a cat for Horde and a Hawkstrider for alliance.

The time you wasted for that title could really be described as "insane".

320/24 = 13,3 days

You wasted nearly two weeks of your life for an absolutely irrelevant "achievement" in a virtual world. Even in WoW you can find thousand more important things and funstuff to do.

Insane become less insane and more lame.

Dear whiners.

Boohoo you lost your uniqueness by the removal of "Shen'Dralar". I'm one of the aspiring insaners who will complete it in Cataclysm,
due to Blizzard not being able to make up their mind. When having it verified from various different sources that "Insane in the Membrane" would infact remain in Cataclysm I DID slack because I was informed of the 10% increased reputation from guild leveling. Now you can't call me a slacker for wanting 10 % extra rep, That's just playing smart.

Imagine my kick in the balls when I later find out i have one month to complete the ENTIRE FoS , I do not support Account Hacking nor bots therefore I do not buy gold. Nor am i terrribly rich which leaves me without the option of buying everything you need for the FoS (Insane indeed, AH farming is hard yes.) I wouldn't mind them keeping Shen'Dralar in Cataclysm, not at all I want to do the entire Achievement.
BUT as someone stated above me, only a small few care about this FoS and I doubt blizzard will halt their expansion plannings just for it.
Therefore this was the only solution. So please, Stop the god damned whining about us achieveing your uber-title without any effort. I didn't ask for them to remove Shen'Dralar, But I sure as hell am not going to suffer my title because blizzard change their minds more often than a fat kid being offered both a hamburger and a pizza.

And before any of you come with your "Boohooo you could've done it earlier!" First off all, it isn't a very well advertized FoS. Secondly, as I mentioned above, I wanted it done as painless as possible, that don't make me a slacker, that puts me on the exact same level as the ones buying all the mats.

Peace.

The only people that are QQ'ing are those who are sour that they just spend thousands of gold on rep items because theyre too damn lazy to farm it themselves in the first place.

I originally typed up a huge massive post ranting about this and that but I'll put it more simply for effectiveness:

1. We were promised that we could complete the Insane in Cataclysm - I'd started this grind, but for me it was not a "spend 4 weeks rushing" grind but a "spend a year or so a little bit at a time" sort of grind.
2. Noone who complained about the removal of the Insane title was complaining about the requirements of the grind, only about the ability to complete it.
3. A Feats of Strength are defined as "accomplishments that players will find very difficult if not impossible to earn" - the whole "had to be there" argument is BS because the fact is, I was there, I started my grind with a timeframe in mind (bearing in mind I was working towards Bloodsail Exalted and ended up wasting 240 hours worth of grinding on Jazzrik because they changed their minds) then they changed the goalposts.
4. You shouldn't get anything extra for Shen'dralar since the criteria were laid out: Bloodsail to Honored, others to Exalted for the Insane in the Membrane FoS and title. You chose to do it based on that information, so it's tough if you regret your decision now. I say this as someone who has almost finished Shen'dralar, and will have it finished before Cataclysm, not because of the FoS but because I like to complete everything I can in the game.

The whole idea that Blizzard are "catering to casuals" again is ridiculous - this isn't about casual/hardcore or anything like that. Noone wanted or asked for the removal of the Shen'dralar requirement. All people wanted was the chance to complete the Insane in Cataclysm, which they were promised.

This solution is not, repeat NOT, the best solution for all parties, but the fact remains that you chose to do the grind when you did based on the requirements set forth, if they choose to make it easier down the line, then tough, you made the decision to complete that grind, not them.

If you do Ravenholdt, Darkmoon Faire and the others. Then you were insane enough to complete Shen'dralar when it was available. This achievement it still very much insane and will still require countless hours and gold to complete.

I can sum up every argument in this entire discussion.

*) "I just like the title "the Insane" because it looks cool. I'll get it regardless of what it takes, easy or hard."

*) "It's still a bunch of irrelevant and massive rep grinds. It's just not quite as irrelevant and massive as it was before. It's still "Insane" enough."

*) "I want to be a special snowflake! You are causing me irreparable harm by letting other people do things I did! Entitlement! I'll sue you!"

*) "Video games shouldn't be easy, man. Video games should sever your hamstrings, grind your face into the dirt, and rip your soul out through your nostrils. Because that makes me feel better about myself."

*) "I like tacos."

Now, I can sum up all of my responses to everyone in this discussion.

*) "the Insane" does look cool. Enjoy.

*) Get a freaking life. It's just a game.

*) I like tacos too.

Now, I sit back and watch as my words have an effect on exactly no-one. Ah well. I'll just continue to play this game I play, for fun. Because bytes on a hard drive in a Blizzard datacenter define all of our existences, right? Yeah.

Originally Posted by BrendanBauer

Pot. Kettle. Black. I think you're missing the fact that nobody was bitching about spending all the money and taking all the time, they were complaining about the time frame. In the new xpac, the only way Blizz could keep things together as far as story and this FoS go was to get rid of that one rep. If something crazy happened, and WoW ceased to exist tomorrow, all these digital things that make you feel like a special and unique snowflake would cease to exist and it wouldn't matter who did what when. Go drink a Pepsi and relax.

and you're missing the fact that this is an FoS they're not obligated to keep it in either, but because of all the QQ they had to. look how many FoS are unobtainable now, and we will never see them again. it just like a kid in a supermarket screaming and crying for their mum to buy them a toy or some chocolate bar, and Blizzard caved in

Originally Posted by jakj

I can sum up every argument in this entire discussion.

*) "I just like the title "the Insane" because it looks cool. I'll get it regardless of what it takes, easy or hard."

*) "It's still a bunch of irrelevant and massive rep grinds. It's just not quite as irrelevant and massive as it was before. It's still "Insane" enough."

*) "I want to be a special snowflake! You are causing me irreparable harm by letting other people do things I did! Entitlement! I'll sue you!"

*) "Video games shouldn't be easy, man. Video games should sever your hamstrings, grind your face into the dirt, and rip your soul out through your nostrils. Because that makes me feel better about myself."

*) "I like tacos."

Now, I can sum up all of my responses to everyone in this discussion.

*) "the Insane" does look cool. Enjoy.

*) Get a freaking life. It's just a game.

*) I like tacos too.

Now, I sit back and watch as my words have an effect on exactly no-one. Ah well. I'll just continue to play this game I play, for fun. Because bytes on a hard drive in a Blizzard datacenter define all of our existences, right? Yeah.

This is a good summary! But i like the tears shed in a massive NERDRAGE!!!!!!!

I remember when Insane in the Membrane first came out. I considered grinding it but I opted not to because I figured since Blizzard cheapens most non-raiding achievements, they will probably nerf this too. Sure enough, they did!

---------- Post added 2010-11-11 at 12:33 PM ----------

Originally Posted by jakj

I can sum up every argument in this entire discussion.

*) "I just like the title "the Insane" because it looks cool. I'll get it regardless of what it takes, easy or hard."

*) "It's still a bunch of irrelevant and massive rep grinds. It's just not quite as irrelevant and massive as it was before. It's still "Insane" enough."

*) "I want to be a special snowflake! You are causing me irreparable harm by letting other people do things I did! Entitlement! I'll sue you!"

*) "Video games shouldn't be easy, man. Video games should sever your hamstrings, grind your face into the dirt, and rip your soul out through your nostrils. Because that makes me feel better about myself."

*) "I like tacos."

Now, I can sum up all of my responses to everyone in this discussion.

*) "the Insane" does look cool. Enjoy.

*) Get a freaking life. It's just a game.

*) I like tacos too.

Now, I sit back and watch as my words have an effect on exactly no-one. Ah well. I'll just continue to play this game I play, for fun. Because bytes on a hard drive in a Blizzard datacenter define all of our existences, right? Yeah.

The people that got the "difficult" version of the feat of strength will still be able to prove it by linking the achieve which will show the date, so they really lost nothing.

The same holds true for rank 14. I have High Warlord, and even though they are bringing the title back, its ok by me because I'll always have the feat of strength to prove I got the vanilla version via the date stamp.

Originally Posted by skylla05

You mean like the unique title they already have?

The Bloodsail Admiral title takes a couple of hours to get, you only have to be honored. Even if you were already exalted with all 4 of the Cartel reps it still only takes a few hours. There is no unique title for the the nuts for ground it out to exalted, just a sense of satisfaction that they did one of the hardest, if not THE hardest, rep grinds in the game.

Do a little research before you try to be witty in public.

So how long till i can get my scarab lord mount blizzard?

I never did bother with this one. Instead I ended up just selling mats to get rep up for this achievement at rediculously high price because of the other players scrambling to get it done. This is good news, because not only did I profit off of all the stuff I had, but now I can do the achivement as well at my leisure hehe.

Originally Posted by Anandor

and you're missing the fact that this is an FoS they're not obligated to keep it in either, but because of all the QQ they had to. look how many FoS are unobtainable now, and we will never see them again. it just like a kid in a supermarket screaming and crying for their mum to buy them a toy or some chocolate bar, and Blizzard caved in

When they introduced Scarab Lord, they said that there would only be 10 hours from the first time the gong was rung to get the rewards. When the PVP titles were removed, they said they would be removed. Near the start of WotLK they said they'd be removing Champion of the Naaru and Hand of A'dal. Even for Zul'gurub and the various mounts/achievements/reputation with it they told us it would be removed.

Do you see the difference here? They specifically said that the Insane WOULDN'T be removed. If, back in 2009, they'd said "The Insane will be removed in Cataclysm" or even if they'd said it a few months ago, there'd be some complaints, but not on the scale of backlash that there is now. To sum up, they have:

1. told us it WOULD be in
2. Didn't announce that they'd changed Shen'dralar rep, making the feat impossible
3. If noone had mentioned it at Blizzcon we'd probably still be wondering
4. They then proceed to tell us that some things are just "had to be there" completely contradicting their own words
5. They finally give in to the justified complaints, but provide a solution that neither side wants particularly.

If they'd said "Zul'gurub is being removed and so is Insane in the Membrane" people would have been able to accept that, because there would've been enough time to do something about it. However, they gave us little notice, and directly contradicted their own information several times. I don't believe it was a malicious attempt to screw people over, purely a case of misinformation and bad communication to its public.

Sure there's some complaints over ZG being removed, but not nearly at the level of when they said Insane in the Membrane would be removed. Is that because more people care about the Insane than do ZG? No, it's just because ZG was a good example of how to communicate to your customers a game-changing decision. The way they handled the Insane was a good example of what NOT to do when communicating with your customers.

Originally Posted by Driitz

Taken from MMO facebook comment ..

"why not give the scrubs a different title like <the Crazy> or <the Tardy> for being incapable of completing it ontime."

personally i like the tardy option ..

Dude if that was to happen all the people who already have The Insane Title would QQ that they cant also get The Tardy title!

I'm confused here, so you can now farm Bloodsail to exalted simply by killing guards?

Originally Posted by zylya

3. If noone had mentioned it at Blizzcon we'd probably still be wondering

Yay! I'm helping!

I kinda wish you hadn't said anything, though. The explosion of nerdrage would have been even more delicious.

Honestly, I wouldn't have been mad if blizzard would have put an equally hard rep to grind in the requirement for insane for those who wanted to try for it in cata. Completely removing a rep such a shen'dralar is just outright a slap in the face. FOS isn't that impressive for the work put in for it. For the people that say well you can just buy that rep. No you have to grind out blood of the heroes, skins of shadows, and abom stiches. That all is relative to what particular libram you have. I don't think asking for title or maybe something like a pet /mount would be too much to ask for.

Blizzard has made the insane like the kingslayer title.. wait long enough everyone has it.

The answer shouldn't be rewarding players who completed the original grind, it should be about making the "new" grind be as difficult (roughly) as the old. To me there is no easier way to do this than to let Lorekeeper Lydros accept Libram turnins. He's still in Dire Maul, his gossip text still actually recognises whether you completed "Elven Legends" or not so why not just put the quests back in? Hell they could've avoided the whole disaster if they'd just lied and said "Whoops, we didn't realise that we'd taken the Libram quests out, they're back in now though"