Ghostcrawler Developer Blog: Raid Progress
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker)
We addressed our views on dungeon difficulty several weeks ago, and in the interim many players have asked for us to comment on raid difficulty.

I chose to use the word "progress" in the title for this blog quite intentionally. We think progression is the key to players having fun. When groups stop making progress, the members get frustrated. When individuals feel like they are stuck, that’s when they start to lose interest. I don’t think it strictly has to do with the flow of loot being shut off. A big part of it is the sense that as you climb up that mountain, you are getting closer and closer to the summit instead of just sliding back down to base camp at the end of each day.

Let’s consider two extremes. If you complete the raid content very quickly and have Sinestra on farm and everyone has acquired their best in slot items, then you’re probably ready to take a break from raiding. If you worked really hard to get to that point, as many of the current “finished” guilds did, then you’re probably pretty happy about resting until Firelands becomes available. However, if that break point happens too soon, too easily, for too many guilds, then the raiding game can feel empty. Players run out of content before they are ready to run out of content, if that makes sense. Now let’s consider the other extreme, where a guild just has no realistic chance of ever beating a boss. This can be particularly demoralizing if it’s the first boss, but it can happen at any time. That guild might not feel like they are making progress. Many guilds are willing to put in a few weeks trying to master a new encounter, but if it gets to the point where they are wiping for months, there’s a good chance they’ll start to see burnout and thinning ranks. The sweet spot in raid balance for us to hit is that everyone feels like they can still make progress. Content that is too hard or too easy doesn’t meet that goal.

Raid encounters, to some extent, nerf themselves. This is because every week, the raid members acquire more and more gear. Secondarily, the community acquires more and more knowledge and experience, which translates into better videos, strategy guides, or even UI mods, as well as just more players who have experienced the encounters firsthand. Each week that you are able to kill any bosses, your group’s gear improves overall, through Valor points if nothing else. When Firelands is available, everyone’s gear will quickly take a step up in quality. This will give you an even better chance to beat those bosses that are blocking you now. We wouldn’t be surprised to see some guilds try the first few Firelands bosses one night, while using the next night to go back to get the head and chests from Nef and Cho’gall in order to complete their set bonuses, that is until acquiring new set bonuses becomes feasible. On some bosses, though, better armor and weapons may not be enough because some mechanics just can’t easily be outgeared. To mitigate that problem, our tendency is to nerf content over time just to make sure a wide variety of players see it. The trailblazers get to see the fights before anyone else, but we don’t lock the dungeon door behind them.

Having said all of that, there are some encounters that still need adjustment. Heroic 10-player modes can often be the hardest to balance, because those groups just don’t have access to the sheer number of tools in one group that the larger raids have. You’ve probably seen some hotfixes go out recently and we might make more adjustments in 4.1. We’ll continue to monitor progress and make adjustments when we feel the time is right.

Overall, we are pretty happy with our current raid balance. Most guilds that are trying seem to be making some progress. On some realms, we’re seeing pickup groups for at least the earlier bosses, which seems appropriate for where we are in the content cycle. The Heroic versions are particularly challenging, though even in that case, there is a gradient with easier and very difficult bosses. For those of you who feel like you are stuck on progression, we’d like to hear more about why. Are you trying to PUG the encounters? Do you have a very casual guild with a lot of different players each night? Is the problem that you’re undergeared or that the mechanics are too unforgiving? What are the mechanics that are really hard for raid leadership to explain or even understand? Are your tanks exploding, or are your healers running out of mana, or are you failing the berserk timers? We have data on all of this, but it’s useful to hear it from your point of view as well. Remember, our goal is that you beat the fight because you understood the mechanics and executed your tanking, DPS, and healing around those constraints. If you’re just kind of powering through a boss ability or phase that you don’t really understand, then it’s going to be a lot harder for you. As always, feedback on which encounters you are enjoying and which ones you never want to see again is also appreciated, though we’ve gotten a lot of that already, and are designing your Firelands foes with that in mind.


P.S. I am as excited about the Firelands encounters as I am about the current ones. We can’t wait for you to wipe to them, er... see them.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He wipes to the elevator boss.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Ghostcrawler Developer Blog: Raid Progress started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 159 Comments
  1. wiIdi's Avatar
    "We think progression is the key to players having fun."
    There is no progression if you don't let pugs into raids because thats exactly what you did, in this expansion you killed pugs.

    Let me make this clear:
    Leave normal mode raids to pugs and causals.
    Hard mode should be for the cool pros, elitists and guilds.
  1. lkonig's Avatar
    This is from a GM running a Casual Raiding guild with some above average raiders and the rest average raiders/players.

    I feel that the Cataclysm content is awesome. From quests to dungeons to heroics to raids. What I have seen in our guild is that the more hardcore players who leveled to 85 very fast and ran dungeon after dungeon are now burning out. I do have requirements to raid set in place from iLevel, enchants, gems, DPS, HPS and tanking ability. In doing so it has made our raiding much more rewarding and not always fail attempts. With Cataclysm players are now understanding it's a different level from WOTLK. As an average guild that is more casual with not the same 10 showing to raid on our raid nights the content can be hard and not forgiving to the more casual raiders.

    In Cataclysm a big part of raiding is not just mechanics and gear as it once was it relies on PLAYER ABILITY and not all players have all of the ability to raid just yet. If players don't have the full ability I think this is what hurts casual players and casual guilds around the board. Now HIGHER HARD CORE guilds who blast through and spend countless hours on strats etc. may be saying what I have always seen in threads about content "Learn to Raid, Learn your class" etc.... but it just isn't that. I think all normal mode raids should be nerfed a bit for the casual player and casual guild so that we can succeed and down bosses. Hard modes are for the Hard Core Guilds, they blow through the normal mode and then start to progress on hard modes where they should be. Casual Guilds are having issues downing the first 1-4 bosses. I know your reading this saying to yourself what a noob go play hello kitty or whatever, but I love the game and real life doesn't allow me to play as a hard core player in a hard core guild and that is fine. All I am saying is f the normal raid content was a little easier casual players and guilds would have alot more fun and not lose players who are quitting WOW due to frustration etc...

    Ghostcrawler I hope you read this as I am talking from experience and some frustration because seeing the way players are jumping ship and quitting WOW is sad. Having the friends that you have met and played an MMO with for years get frustrated and some burnt out is depressing.
  1. mmoc1b96e712e5's Avatar
    Getting into a good guild is hard, especially if you have created a lot of alts who are not top notch and not even going to the raids yet. But later (in Wotlk late phase) I have raided some. Hardest is when there is something wrong and I cannot figure out what the heck is wrong. For example something keeps dps too low or you just don't get something. Well that is badness of the player I guess. I had trouble in ToC, never got through it. But on the other hand Onyxia was easy and I liked it because I got over with it fairly soon. I have not even seen all the raids. For example I didn't do all of Naxx or Ulduar, not even when they became easier. For pugs the difficulty would be nice if you could actually finish raids. But yeah, good guilds would feel that raids are too easy, if pugs can run them like heroic farming...

    Anyway, raids shouldn't be too easy, but at the same time, if I don't get to raid (because of no good guild, no high enough toon, low gear, or what ever) the raids are just a dream. I don't like that most people seem to raid until 00:00 at night my local time, it makes it harder to find a good guild. I need to sleep too.

    Random dungeons are fine, because any normal day time I join queue, I get to an instance. I have farmed tons of normal and heroic dungeons, but I have not even finished most of or almost all of the raids.
  1. PeaJay's Avatar
    This has restored a little faith back in blizzard.
  1. mmoc4274bdbc5e's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaJay View Post
    This has restored a little faith back in blizzard.
    not for me :S
    I am getting worried they are actually starting to believe in the "feedback" to the community themselves though.


    Raids are not too hard! There is just not a steady enough stream of new content and there is absolutely no justification given how insanely big their budget should be.

    Let us be honest here, hardmodes are, among many things, first and foremest an awesome way to "create" content without spending any money and real workforce on it which seems to be Blizzards new maxime unfortunately(not so new actually...).

    You just take the exact same bosses, in the exact same environments and put them into godmode.
    Great design from a business perspective, if your players have nothing better to do ingame for ONE WHOLE YEAR other than raid ICC week after week and the next 50 weeks.

    A new raid in 4.1 would be the perfect timing not despite but because people are progressing in current tier hardmodes which is not new content but really just the only content we have left to do and more like"old" content v1.5
    Dont get me wrong, I do enjoy the current raiding tier and at this moment I am still having fun progressing with my guild through it but I am fearing the worst for the future, looking at how things are shaping right now in respect to the past.

    Blizzard has gotten lazy, I am sorry to say it but it is the truth. I dont even blame the devs who are obviously passionate about their work to create the best game they can.
    It is more than likely the guy tightening the purse strings.

    You know, they guy saying : New content? Why? There is still so much to recycle without having to spend resources. Lets bring back ZG and ZA!

    I dont give a flying frack about them thanking me for buying their games in their 20 year anniversary self adulation video but I would damn well enjoy to see the appreciation reflect in the work they put into the game, which is just not happening and quite frankly I am getting fed up with it.
  1. PeaJay's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by mufuti View Post
    not for me :S
    I am getting worried they are actually starting to believe in the "feedback" to the community themselves though.
    My fear was that they would go back to ToC style face roll raids in firelands. I agree that hardmodes are really lackluster expecially when we've seen how dynamic they can be in Ulduar. I'm not praising Blizzard for being great I'm jut excited that the QQ hasn't made them turn it into wrath.
  1. Argroth's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by wiIdi View Post
    "We think progression is the key to players having fun."
    There is no progression if you don't let pugs into raids because thats exactly what you did, in this expansion you killed pugs.

    Let me make this clear:
    Leave normal mode raids to pugs and causals.
    Hard mode should be for the cool pros, elitists and guilds.
    lol "cool pros". In the context of WoW that's a really oxymoronic statement.
  1. Kibrisli's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriousdoom View Post
    what elevator boss?
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    The BWD one
    i bet he never been there ! :P
  1. skajaki's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by lkonig View Post
    This is from a GM running a Casual Raiding guild with some above average raiders and the rest average raiders/players.

    I feel that the Cataclysm content is awesome. From quests to dungeons to heroics to raids. What I have seen in our guild is that the more hardcore players who leveled to 85 very fast and ran dungeon after dungeon are now burning out. I do have requirements to raid set in place from iLevel, enchants, gems, DPS, HPS and tanking ability. In doing so it has made our raiding much more rewarding and not always fail attempts. With Cataclysm players are now understanding it's a different level from WOTLK. As an average guild that is more casual with not the same 10 showing to raid on our raid nights the content can be hard and not forgiving to the more casual raiders.

    In Cataclysm a big part of raiding is not just mechanics and gear as it once was it relies on PLAYER ABILITY and not all players have all of the ability to raid just yet. If players don't have the full ability I think this is what hurts casual players and casual guilds around the board. Now HIGHER HARD CORE guilds who blast through and spend countless hours on strats etc. may be saying what I have always seen in threads about content "Learn to Raid, Learn your class" etc.... but it just isn't that. I think all normal mode raids should be nerfed a bit for the casual player and casual guild so that we can succeed and down bosses. Hard modes are for the Hard Core Guilds, they blow through the normal mode and then start to progress on hard modes where they should be. Casual Guilds are having issues downing the first 1-4 bosses. I know your reading this saying to yourself what a noob go play hello kitty or whatever, but I love the game and real life doesn't allow me to play as a hard core player in a hard core guild and that is fine. All I am saying is f the normal raid content was a little easier casual players and guilds would have alot more fun and not lose players who are quitting WOW due to frustration etc...

    Ghostcrawler I hope you read this as I am talking from experience and some frustration because seeing the way players are jumping ship and quitting WOW is sad. Having the friends that you have met and played an MMO with for years get frustrated and some burnt out is depressing.
    I'm no GM, but making normals even more easier than they already are would be wrong.
    Think like this, there's, lets say 5 different kind of guilds.
    1. Top World Guilds (13/13)
    2. Hardcore Guilds (Lets say 9/13)
    3. Great Guilds (Some Heroic downed)
    4. Guilds (Cleared 12/12)
    5. Casual Guilds (9/12)

    The Names are just there for some sort of Nametagging.

    Let's not care about guild1.
    Guild2 is clearly skilled players, probably everybody has almost full hc gear aswell. They will prolly down the last 4 soon, either by succeeding in their current state (bosses) or when they'd get nerfed.
    Guild3 are what I should say is normal for a guild today in progress, got skilled players, also some bad, but just can't find the time to progress enough.
    Guild4. Is a okay guild, probably alot of casuals that doesn't have time to progress more than some hours a week, now they're trying to gear up all their players.
    Guild5. Well either you suck, or you just play like 2 hours a week.

    Now lets say they nerf the normal content and buff the heroic one.

    Guild1 will have more of a challenge, which is fun for them! Though I think it is tuned for the absolute elite (paragon etc.) and then nerfbat it to it's current hardnesslvl.
    Guild2 will have a lot slower progress, which ain't fun for them, as I believe myself that they already are in somewhat meant to be progress (somewhere between guild3/2 i think)
    Guild3 will have problems with the first bosses, burned out wiping on them for a long time, since normal is so much easier.
    Guild4 will have an fast progress experience, and won't be able to down the heroic ones, this will result with some of them will quit because of no raidcontent, some will join other better guilds etc.
    Guild5 will be able to see all the 12 encounters! YAY!

    Now I think that it's an minority that hasn't cleared all 12/12 bosses, and I think that the majority of raiding guilds are doing as guild3/2 atm, I don't think that they should nerf normals more, since that playerbase (who will get new gear in 4.2 (t11 from jp)) will be able to down BWD, Tot4W and BoT later on.

    Also, if everybody could reach the heroic content that much easier, more people will consider themselves "good" enough for heroics, and demanding blizz to nerf it.

    Difficulties are fine as they are!
  1. mmoc4274bdbc5e's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaJay View Post
    My fear was that they would go back to ToC style face roll raids in firelands. I agree that hardmodes are really lackluster expecially when we've seen how dynamic they can be in Ulduar. I'm not praising Blizzard for being great I'm jut excited that the QQ hasn't made them turn it into wrath.
    yes, exactly. I mean we need to call back in mind the time when the real separation of hardmodes and normal modes was introduced... it was with ToC which was just a giant slap in the face given how horrible that tier was.

    The encounter design for cataclysm in general but also the atmosphere of the raids (and the fact that all three are quite varied in their environments and mechanics) are awesome, I really feel like it is the best raiding tier after Ulduar right now.
    But it is not enough, maybe my expectations for cataclysm were too high but I dont see a lot of progress. I think it would be much better to have raiding tiers overlap each other so while you are still doing hardmodes of the "old" tier you also have new content to progress through which might require normal raiding guilds to aquire the hardmode loot of the previous raids before you can progress after a while.

    GC seems to hint at that being a possibility for the future but if new content is released so slowly I dont expect it to be a great thing
  1. mmoc0ad4cccb75's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by mufuti View Post
    You just take the exact same bosses, in the exact same environments and put them into godmode.
    Great design from a business perspective, if your players have nothing better to do ingame for ONE WHOLE YEAR other than raid ICC week after week and the next 50 weeks.
    I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight here, but aren't you basically saying that you dislike hardmodes because the majority of the playerbase sucks?

    If the overall skill of the players would be higher more people would steamroll the content and Blizzard would have a reason to release new content. As it is now, and as it was back in the end of Wrath, people weren't exactly steamrolling ICC, even with the insane nerfs to the raid.

    If you have a problem grasping the concept, think of normals and heroics as two separate raids. Instead of designing twice the amount of raids per content-patch, Blizzard is adding another layer upon the existing tier to allow more people to try that content.

    This way casuals get to experience the raid via normal encounters, and more serious raiders get to experience the challenge they are after in heroic modes. So before you label Blizzard as lazy you might want to speculate some on why things are the way they are. Think back to Vanilla or TBC times and compare them to now and you'll surely understand the concept.
  1. lkonig's Avatar
    "Now I think that it's an minority that hasn't cleared all 12/12 bosses" REALLY maybe I am on a bad are sucky play skill server because out of the thousands of raiding guilds out there I guarantee more raiding guilds are struggling than the hard core guilds. I am not sure how accurate guild ox is but that itself shows that more non hard core or world guilds are really struggling.

    Don't get me wrong I love the challenge, but after a while it gets so damn frustrating and getting frustrating over game play is nuts. On our server via guild ox we are ranked 57th in 10 mans which isn't to bad I assume.

    I just think normal modes are and should be for normal raiding guilds and and hard modes are for the hardcore and world guilds. Hard modes should give alot better gear if you ask me. It can be the same gear but stats are greatly improved.
  1. Rukentuts's Avatar
    Another pointless babble that isn't worth the hard drive it is written on from an elaborate fisherman in no way qualified to manage a team of video game developers.

    In short, this guy is a colossal (literally) idiot.
  1. lkonig's Avatar
    NEODYM THANK YOU

    I thin you and I are saying the same thing.
  1. orderschvank's Avatar
    TLDR:

    "we arent listening to you guys"


    is pretty much what he is saying.
  1. EvadSaah's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Another pointless babble that isn't worth the hard drive it is written on from an elaborate fisherman in no way qualified to manage a team of video game developers.

    In short, this guy is a colossal (literally) idiot.
    Now, show me on the doll where the bad crab touched you.
  1. quras's Avatar
    I don't think you can design content that fits both the hardcore and the more casual raider no matter how much you want to control progress.

    No matter what content you create. The hardcore will complete it ahead of designers schedulers schedule. They will work 10X as hard if need be to complete it. Work day in and day out till content is downed. No matter what is created the hardcore will finish it.

    That simply will not happen for the casual raider / gamer.

    Now, I ask which group is the largest of the 2?

    Trying to balance game design between the 2 groups is half the problem blizzard has now. Those 2 groups can't be designed for evenly and designing any content trying to is bound to not turn out well. This expansion proves that. It was designed to be more difficult and more unforgiving.

    The player base in turn turned difficult to be with and unforgiving to each other because of the design. It was designed to be unforgiving and thats what blizzard got.

    Pick a side (the majority) - Go with that and be done. Stop trying to please everyone cause it screwing things up more and more over time.
  1. mmoc4274bdbc5e's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Neodym View Post
    I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight here, but aren't you basically saying that you dislike hardmodes because the majority of the playerbase sucks?
    I dont really get it
    Do you mean because it took people so long to down heroic LK in 25man?
    I was talking about the fact that for one whole year there was no new content created and hc lk was intentionally overtuned because they had nothing else in store. Well...except for Halion which was just one lonely boss encounter.

    If I am getting your meaning right, keep in mind the playerbase can only "suck" at what Blizzard wants them to do and they are creating the game. Which is also just a game and not a competition with a prize or anything.

    If the overall skill of the players would be higher more people would steamroll the content and Blizzard would have a reason to release new content. As it is now, and as it was back in the end of Wrath, people weren't exactly steamrolling ICC, even with the insane nerfs to the raid.
    Exactly, that is both the reason and the result of why they tune encounters so players cannot steamroll it. In fact they tune encounters in a way that only a tiny number of the playerbase will ever clear the current content in every tier. As a player, you dont force them to release new content faster. You will force them to release content that will make your guildleader shit bricks, which is exactly what they are doing now and have been doing in ICC.

    If you have a problem grasping the concept, think of normals and heroics as two separate raids. Instead of designing twice the amount of raids per content-patch, Blizzard is adding another layer upon the existing tier to allow more people to try that content.
    Exactly the problem, they are not two separate raids but the exact same except for the fact that in one copy of the instance BossX "cheats".


    I am playing in a semi-"hardcore" guild. We are not competing directly for first kills but we have downed 6 hardmodes in 25 man so far and I dont see us clearing the content until 4.2. I am okay with that though.

    Also I do NOT hate hardmodes, I understand the concept very well and I am not one of those elitists to begrude "casuals" or simply less ambitious or as you would call it "sucky" players :-P to have fun in this game.

    All I am saying is that hardmodes are no substitute whatsoever for proper new content. Both can exist side by side but the reason I called Blizzard lazy, which probably was not the right word, is they choose not to go about it that way and instead have actually introduced hardmodes as the very substitute for proper new content.

    which sucks.


    one quick edit: My opinion is based from what we have seen so far this expansion. We dont know when 4.2 will hit but I am expecting it at the end of May at the very earliest. And if they keep that pace it is just not not enough.
  1. EvadSaah's Avatar
    All I am saying is that hardmodes are no substitute whatsoever for proper new content. Both can exist side by side but the reason I called Blizzard lazy, which probably was not the right word, is they choose not to go about it that way and instead have actually introduced hardmodes as the very substitute for proper new content.
    No, that's exactly what hardmodes are there for. You clear the normals, and then you clear the hardmodes. Less than 10% of the playerbase has even seen a heroic raid last I checked. I've just never understood the logic behind wanting more content you can't clear.
  1. mmoc4274bdbc5e's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by EvadSaah View Post
    No, that's exactly what hardmodes are there for. You clear the normals, and then you clear the hardmodes. Less than 10% of the playerbase has even seen a heroic raid last I checked. I've just never understood the logic behind wanting more content you can't clear.
    I know that is what theywere made for, that is what I said
    And that sucks.

    Why more content?Because more is better. Not always ofc but when it comes to principally repetitive things like raiding it absolutely applies. You dont go to the movies to watch the same film again and again and again. Diversity is the word here.

    It is more fun to wipe for days on a new boss than it is to wipe for days on the hardmode of a boss you have already done a LOT of times. By that logic, it would be OK for you they add a Hardermode and uberhardmode and ExtremelyHardmode instead of creating new raids? I dont think so.

    I know not one person, not even casual or simply bad raider, who enjoyed having to raid ICC for one year. Even the most "casual"(in most cases this meant simply bad) guilds should have been done with content long before december last year.

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