Firelands Raid Changes Incoming

September 19th: Deathwing's presence have scared the creatures in Firelands. All lesser creatures in firelands including Shannox & Beth'tilac pets have been corrupted by Deathwing and turned against Ragnaros. Baleroc & Majordomo met their end fast before the 715 creatures zerged into Ragnaros throne.
Ragnaros got slain by all Fireland's minions, but luckilly he dropped his chest.

* Beth'tilac: Her web was destroyed by her minions. She is now mortally wounded and encounter starts at 10%.
* Lord Rhyolith: He is now permanently immobalized of fear and unable to create vulcanos or become superheated.
* Alysrazor: All Alysrazor's minions took a hike.
* Shannox: Shannox pets have abandoned its master he throws a crystal trap on himself on pull.

We're also happy to announce that Tier 13 dungeon is now a PRE-EVENT to Diablo 3. It's a quest chain obtainable at level 60. Can only be completed solo.

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

And MC bosses were killed easily in that time, they would be boring as hell even to the baddiest of the wow players now, you basically had to stay still and spam your rotation, decurse a couple of curses and profit. As long as the gear has some fire resist, even if you are in greens, it would be a walk

Are you confused or do you have memory problems? MC was not a "walk" to most guilds.

Originally Posted by Sidney

Did you raid back in Vanilla?

[Redacted for space]

Really good post.

I'll be honest. I run with mostly casual players that play 2 nights a week (raid nights). We have a fun bunch and still kill stuff rather efficiently. We're currently having trouble putting Domo on farm and killing Rag but that doesn't really hurt us yet. (I don't care if you elitist view me as a scrub... I killed Kel'Thuzad 40 man and I never want to dedicate that much time to the game ever again) I am looking forward to viewing and potentially beating the encounter after the nerf. I won't have the sense of accomplishment, perhaps, but killing mans with a fun group of people is all that counts for me. I could care less about the elitism.

Originally Posted by tacoloco

Are you confused or do you have memory problems? MC was not a "walk" to most guilds.

I'm telling, these guys that think they're hot shit have selective memories and don't remember a single thing from the game that was challenging before this tier of content.

Originally Posted by tacoloco

Some people in this thread crack me up. If we're to believe some of you, you went into the original MC and facerolled all the bosses, the first time, naked, uphill both ways. Newsflash: MC was hard for most guilds back in the day, despite what some of you claim. Not only were most people not that good at working together, we had lousy itemization, weird stats in some cases, and we had to farm constantly for resist sets, which not everyone had when MC was still "current" content. And let's not forget getting the right rep with the Hydraxian Warlords for the Quintessence needed to extinguish those things on the ground after a boss kill.

Now, maybe people here are all super uber great players, but personally I think most of the people claiming MC was "easy" are full of shit. Sure, the mechanics were a lot simpler, but we were also a lot less experienced as raiders too.

It took long because of the reuirements (farmin all you needed) not because figths were hard. We are discussing how hard the figths were, and there was no boss with mroe than 3 mechanics, most of the time you had to focus on dispelling something and controlling adds and you were done as long as you had the requieremnts met (defense on tank, regen on healers, resist gear on all raid).

MC fights were easy, you almost didnt have to move at all.

Ah well, One week to down Raggy heroic for us before they stomp him in the ground.

Originally Posted by Jahrastafari

I define my self-worth by how far and quickly I progress through the World of Warcraft's raid content. My self-esteem is hurt at the thought of Blizzard enabling other people, people that I consider my lessers, to play the same part of the game as me.

Did I pretty much nail every complaint in this thread?

Pretty accurate, yes.

---------- Post added 2011-09-13 at 02:59 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Kaeleena

Elite difficulty. Above heroic. Make the content so difficult it takes Paragon 6 months to clear it.

Wouldnt mind about this. But make normals Wrath easy. Keep heroic and any other difficult setting you want at the level you want, i dont care.

Normals should have never raised its difficulty from Wrath one, effectively killing pugging, leaving many people with nothing to do.

Like nerfing normals isn't enough? Incoming loads of people who couldn't even manage to kill Baleroc N with full 391 gear... Thought the whole idea of adding heroic mode was to add another level for the people who downed the normal version way too easy and wanted a more hard level but no...Let's just make normal mode and wait for the massive nerfs to heroic mode so we can faceroll it for uber gear, YEY!

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

It took long because of the reuirements (farmin all you needed) not because figths were hard. We are discussing how hard the figths were, and there was no boss with mroe than 3 mechanics, most of the time you had to focus on dispelling something and controlling adds and you were done as long as you had the requieremnts met (defense on tank, regen on healers, resist gear on all raid).

MC fights were easy, you almost didnt have to move at all.

There was also virtually no third party addons that almost everyone relies on these days. You also had to coordinate 40 people, the majority of whom had no idea how to play their class (because the game was new not because they were particularly bad), and the mechanics were much more delveoped than other encounters in the game at that time making it a much harder fight in relativity to other content available.

Originally Posted by tacoloco

Are you confused or do you have memory problems? MC was not a "walk" to most guilds.

I sait it would be a walk now, would, not was. The fights were/are easy. The fact that there was a lot of farming to do, almost no therycrafting, having to put 40 people toguether and a generally worse playing playerbase is what made the instance not a walk in the past.

The figths were easy. 3 mechanics, not very varying ones, almost no movement whatsoever.

This thread makes me wonder if the people whining about Blizzard catering to the masses even have one single shred of common sense or observational skills. Or if they're so blinded with ignorance, they believe this stuff shouldn't happen. Maybe they're still in their infancy regarding the world around them and think that companies like this are around to wipe their ass rather than appeal to the masses and make a buck. Protip: This isn't a retail outlet store or a fast food chain, the customer is rarely right. It applies to wanting what you want on your hamburger, or the quality of service from a retail clerk, not how a multi-billion in investments game should be designed.

Let's put it this way, Blizzard has a long term plan on how they're mapping WoW out for the biggest bang in revenue (while things can change... these are typically 5 year plans. They don't make these decisions on the fly). They don't care if hardcores get their panties in a bunch and quit, because they've already factored your rather minimal numbers in. Simply put, they'll tell you otherwise, obviously, but in the grand scheme of the direction this game is taking... you're insignificant.

I know people like to think that video game companies are a bunch of cool dudes, making cool games for cool kids, but not only is that nothing more than a marketing strategy (it's similar to why Olivia Munn is recognized for being anything but extremely mediocre and a boring TV personality, she simply "relates" to her fans), it's only true on a superficial level. In reality any business will (hopefully morally) exploit the shit out of it in the name of a profit margin.

TLDR: Stop the crusade and find something else that is worthy of your precious time and dedication if it's that personally insulting that your "challenge in a video game" is being diminished. Stop expecting somebody else to tell you how and what to enjoy. If this means doom for Blizzard, so be it, but I can assure you that it doesn't. Blizzard track record in regards to quality of gaming and unit sales, far supersedes what a bunch of loud kids on the forums are going to do. Believe me, you're not as important as you think you are.

Originally Posted by maccaruso

There was also virtually no third party addons that almost everyone relies on these days. You also had to coordinate 40 people, the majority of whom had no idea how to play their class (because the game was new not because they were particularly bad), and the mechanics were much more delveoped than other encounters in the game at that time making it a much harder fight in relativity to other content available.

Maybe you should go to the beggining of the discussion, where i said that today guilds would faceroll everything in MC.

Guilds didnt killed everything fast in that time because reasons that were not figths difficulty (gethering 40 people, farming particular equipments, crafting it, no therycrafting, no third party addons, etc). The fights itself were shit compared to what we have today.

And i do think they should leave heroic mode unnerfed. Normals modes are the ones that should be easier from day 1 to me.

Rag was all ready nerfed.

Originally Posted by Sidney

Did you raid back in Vanilla?

I suspect you didn't, because you'd know there's no contest in raid difficulty between Vanilla and Cataclysm. Rag was a joke compared to his current incarnation.

Did you finish the Hyjal questline? Remember the fight at the end where your character and the Arch Druids fight Ragnaros, and while Malfurion tanks you burn down the adds?

That is the original Rag fight. Sure, the NPCs and the buffs make the fight trivial, but the mechanics didn't change. Ragnaros has two real phases- he's either out where your Main Tank tanks and spanks him, and a 'submerged' phase where fire elementals spawn and wipe out your healers if your DPS couldn't burn them. Oh, yes, you had a lava wave to avoid.


etc...

I can't help but disagree more than agree with these sorts of posts. Everything is an execution fight. Even tank and spanks are execution fights. Your healers are executing heals at the proper times and pacing their casts to conserve mana. Your DPS are executing their rotations perfectly. Your tanks are synchronizing cooldowns perfectly with incoming heals and incoming damage.

And let's be real here. By the time bosses are live there's an extension to [[boss mod of your choice]] for them. It's my opinion that fights (and more generically, mechanics) have evolved alongside the addons being created for them in order to stay ahead of them. When I returned to raiding in late WoTLK, after quitting halfway through BWL, I started casually pugging ToC and shortly after ICC. I was able to mostly bluff my way through bosses because I literally had the game yelling at me when fire/ooze/adds/enrages/etc. were imminent/occurring. To offset mechanics they loosen healing/dps requirements, even in heroics. Do you think Vanilla rag would have been even possible if your healers/dps had to periodically move out of the raid due to a debuff, or cancel casts to dodge [[insert bad stuff on ground here]]? It was difficult enough for early kills not to OOM by the end of the second P2 transition.

As an old progression raider (who was present at the original world first Raggy kill), raiding still feels the same today. Most fights are a careful balance between mechanics and your own personal resources depleting, otherwise they wouldn't be doable period. That scale has simply shifted more towards the mechanics and away from efficient resource use. The same raider who has difficulties today not dodging fire would also likely be the same raider who blew their mana overhealing and wiping the raid as a result in a vanilla fight, or the same raider not pulling their weight in DPS.

Originally Posted by IJustMyUsername

...
And let's be real here. By the time bosses are live there's an extension to [[boss mod of your choice]] for them. It's my opinion that fights (and more generically, mechanics) have evolved alongside the addons being created for them in order to stay ahead of them. When I returned to raiding in late WoTLK, after quitting halfway through BWL, I started casually pugging ToC and shortly after ICC. I was able to mostly bluff my way through bosses because I literally had the game yelling at me when fire/ooze/adds/enrages/etc. were imminent/occurring.
...

This is another subject to the "game is too easy and we want challenge" club. Till the day i quitted, nobody pointed me with a gun and forced me to use DBM.

Yet every guy calling the game easy i found had it installed and was using it.

How about not using an addon made by others that tells you what to do and figure out by yourself, like in vanilla? Maybe the challenge comes back. Or would that make the fights from easy facerolling like some people say normals are today to too hard?

Just thought: too soon Executus! TOO SOON!

Originally Posted by Zergal

Normal Nerfs :

- ''big bad elitist'' : cool they are nerfing normals, will make alt runs easier and more people will see the content everybody should be happy no?
- ''baddies'' : yay i get to see content !

Heroic Nerfs :

-''big bad elitist'' : what the fuck blizzard, everybody can already see content, can't we have our fun?
-''baddies'' : y u no want me to see content elitist dickhead
-''big bad elitist'' : its exactly the SAME as normals, just harder, why it matters to you?
-''baddies'' : hurr i wanna see content durrr

Is this community for real?

This is the truth.

The game has been filled with ADHD halftards thanks to Wrath, and now blizz must make everything easy or they throw a tantrum.

I have had enough everyone enjoy your POS game.

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

...How about not using an addon made by others that tells you what to do and figure out by yourself, like in vanilla? Maybe the challenge comes back. Or would that make the fights from easy facerolling like some people say normals are today to too hard?

Precisely. Mechanics have evolved due to addon usage. Remember how trivial Lucifron became with the original incarnation of decursive? Yes, it was a bit excessive and they had removed the API calls originally being used for it, but today I can simply install VuhDo on a healer and right click people when their name plates turn purple, which isn't too far a stretch from that. As a result they can't simply have you dispelling curses and playing whackamole. You need to collapse the raid before they get dispelled, or some other mechanic.

Another claim is that there are more abilities and thus more complex rotations, which is once again offset by addon usage. On my hunter I have power auras set up to tell me when my 4-piece procs, and to alert me when my ISS buff is to drop in 3 seconds. I don't even play with my hotkeys visible half the time (not that I ever click them) because of the plethora of cooldown management addons available now.

Originally Posted by IJustMyUsername

I can't help but disagree more than agree with these sorts of posts. Everything is an execution fight. Even tank and spanks are execution fights. Your healers are executing heals at the proper times and pacing their casts to conserve mana. Your DPS are executing their rotations perfectly. Your tanks are synchronizing cooldowns perfectly with incoming heals and incoming damage.

And let's be real here. By the time bosses are live there's an extension to [[boss mod of your choice]] for them. It's my opinion that fights (and more generically, mechanics) have evolved alongside the addons being created for them in order to stay ahead of them. When I returned to raiding in late WoTLK, after quitting halfway through BWL, I started casually pugging ToC and shortly after ICC. I was able to mostly bluff my way through bosses because I literally had the game yelling at me when fire/ooze/adds/enrages/etc. were imminent/occurring. To offset mechanics they loosen healing/dps requirements, even in heroics. Do you think Vanilla rag would have been even possible if your healers/dps had to periodically move out of the raid due to a debuff, or cancel casts to dodge [[insert bad stuff on ground here]]? It was difficult enough for early kills not to OOM by the end of the second P2 transition.

As an old progression raider (who was present at the original world first Raggy kill), raiding still feels the same today. Most fights are a careful balance between mechanics and your own personal resources depleting, otherwise they wouldn't be doable period. That scale has simply shifted more towards the mechanics and away from efficient resource use. The same raider who has difficulties today not dodging fire would also likely be the same raider who blew their mana overhealing and wiping the raid as a result in a vanilla fight, or the same raider not pulling their weight in DPS.

In vanilla you spammed down ranked heals without much care for mana, while chugging pots if needed

There was no DPS rotation, you basically spammed 1-2 buttons

Tanks hardly had anything to "synchronize" since there was hardly anything that needed it, not to mention only having like 2 cooldowns (Shield Wall & Last Stand) to use

Originally Posted by IJustMyUsername

As an old progression raider (who was present at the original world first Raggy kill), raiding still feels the same today. Most fights are a careful balance between mechanics and your own personal resources depleting, otherwise they wouldn't be doable period. That scale has simply shifted more towards the mechanics and away from efficient resource use. The same raider who has difficulties today not dodging fire would also likely be the same raider who blew their mana overhealing and wiping the raid as a result in a vanilla fight, or the same raider not pulling their weight in DPS.

Well, being there when Ragnaros was killed for the very first time in the world, I bow to your experience- I didn't start WoW until 1.05 or so, and never did see the end of AQ40.

You could provide better insight than me on this:

If the raiding feels the same, why did it take you approximately two and a half months to kill a single boss, while the entire past tier was cleared in-what- 2-3 weeks?

Is it really because he was so much more difficult?

---------- Post added 2011-09-13 at 02:52 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Lolsteak

In vanilla you spammed down ranked heals without much care for mana, while chugging pots if needed

There was no DPS rotation, you basically spammed 1-2 buttons

Tanks hardly had anything to "synchronize" since there was hardly anything that needed it, not to mention only having like 2 cooldowns (Shield Wall & Last Stand) to use

You clearly didn't play a druid... that was hard. You had to be very good at sniping HoTs from your other druids, and giving your innervate to Priests. Then you got to sit down with the priests while your mana regenned and the Shammies healed.