Firelands Raid Changes Incoming

Originally Posted by BoomChickn

There is a bit of an issue with this argument. Look at all the qq posts where people at least explained something. About 90% of them are that they couldn't get it down "pre nerf".

And to be honest, this nerf isn't near the magnitude of the icc nerf. 20% reduction is about equal to a 25% increase in stats, guess what, icc was 30%. Just a reference point.

Well ICC buffs were joke aswell....thats why ppl put some wight on date of kill/%buff. This nerf rly aint necessary and personaly i rly hate it.

Originally Posted by BoomChickn

There is a bit of an issue with this argument. Look at all the qq posts where people at least explained something. About 90% of them are that they couldn't get it down "pre nerf".

And to be honest, this nerf isn't near the magnitude of the icc nerf. 20% reduction is about equal to a 25% increase in stats, guess what, icc was 30%. Just a reference point.

ICC Buff:
5% - March 2nd
10% - March 30th
15% - April 27th
20% - May 25th
25% - June 22nd
30% - July 20th
~5months

Firelands:
Release - June 28th
Nerf active - September 19th
~3months

Frame of reference.

I like this new trend.

Give Guilds a certain short time period to get it done, then nerf it.

If you are bitching it is too soon, you ain't as good as you think you are.

I love how people say Normals are a walk in the park. My guild is still struggling to get Ragnaros to his final phase in normals. Not everyone is as good as you, so I for one welcome the nerfs.

---------- Post added 2011-09-14 at 12:05 AM ----------

Originally Posted by lilbuddhaman

ICC Buff:
5% - March 2nd
10% - March 30th
15% - April 27th
20% - May 25th
25% - June 22nd
30% - July 20th
~5months

Firelands:
Release - June 28th
Nerf active - September 19th
~3months

Frame of reference.

Yeah, and ICC had 12 bosses, Firelands has 7.
7 is pretty much 3/5ths of 12.

Perfectly proportionate and appropriate.

Originally Posted by Kaeleena

This whole argument that everyone is terrible that played before the current expansion and the only thing that matters is the current highest tier and it's the hardest content the game has ever had just has to go. It's really ridiculous.

People were terrible at 60. If you can't believe it, you clearly didn't play back then. Serious theorycrafting started in BC because it was a whole other level compared to 60.

Light theorycrafting started in Naxxramas, mostly due to guilds having issues with finding tactics for patchwerk.

Originally Posted by Fojos

People were terrible at 60. If you can't believe it, you clearly didn't play back then. Serious theorycrafting started in BC because it was a whole other level compared to 60.

Light theorycrafting started in Naxxramas, mostly due to guilds having issues with finding tactics for patchwerk.

Many of the endgame guilds at 60, at least their cores, were not terrible. These typically were comprised of endgame raiders from other MMOs (namely EverQuest) who had been coordinating in, raiding in and playing MMOs long before WoW made them irrelevant. Once again, this is apples to oranges. A good player today would most likely have been a good player back then, and vice versa.

These nerfs are really fucked up....people don't play to the game to "see content"...if I wanted to see content I'd watch a fcuking movie. I want to play a game and be challenged. My 10 man group raids 0-2 times a week for 0-5 hours total, our progression is slow because we don't raid often, not because we need the content nerfed. What the fuck. I can't wait for a better game to come out. Nerfing bosses just like that and trivializing them makes the game seem like such a waste of time. I quit in WotLK soon after I heard they'd be nerfing it a lot over the months. Quitting cata seems like the logical thing to do if they go through with this.

My 10 man group raids 0-2 times a week for 0-5 hours total, our progression is slow because we don't raid often, not because we need the content nerfed.

Can't tell if serious. You raid sometimes 0 times a week but this nerf was too soon for you?

My guild this week:

3/7H

My guild next week:

7/7H

Ty blizzard. At least i get to take a break from this grind fest till 4.4. Oh wait, i'm doing the legendary.

I wonder why they made this decision? What data are they looking at? Low progression in Firelands? The encounters were tuned too high? Trying to attract more casuals? Raid will become obsolete soon?

Originally Posted by lobomuerto

These nerfs are really fucked up....people don't play to the game to "see content"...if I wanted to see content I'd watch a fcuking movie. I want to play a game and be challenged. My 10 man group raids 0-2 times a week for 0-5 hours total, our progression is slow because we don't raid often, not because we need the content nerfed. What the fuck. I can't wait for a better game to come out. Nerfing bosses just like that and trivializing them makes the game seem like such a waste of time. I quit in WotLK soon after I heard they'd be nerfing it a lot over the months. Quitting cata seems like the logical thing to do if they go through with this.

There's an issue to what you have said. For one, "seeing" the content is different than "blowing through" the content.

Secondly, we haven't even heard what kind of nerfs they will be making.

Third, if you got through FL countless times, then why in the hell are you even complaining about anything?

Fourth, there's going to be NEW content that's going to be as challenging as FL was or might still be.

Finally, Blizzard has said that they made a mistake not making progressive style raiding, which they wanted to do from the very start. This is them doing just that with the content. They nerf the previous tier instance when they introduce new content because it's the new content guilds like Paragon will be doing within seconds of the patch going live. Seriously, it sounds like you're just either trolling or raging because "OMG, the OTHER people get to do things that only I was allowed to do? WTF!!!!"

IMO unfair to compare todays raids with MC etc. Its like comparing sport achievements from today and 20-30 years back. During its time their records etc. were hard to achieve with their equipment and all the other stuff.People had bad itemization back then, bad talent trees, bigger raids and for many it was their first raid ever. Ofc that raid doesnt start with a HC LK fight.

I have to say I am really happy at the incoming nerf to the normal modes. Fun for me is not measured in how many times we wipe in a night. It's why I stopped even bothering to raid after Tier 11. I like to go in, kill bosses get loot be done. Now that being said I really do not get the idea of nerfing the Heroic versions. The people running the heroics are there because they like the challenge, they are trying to do the hard stuff. So I am puzzled by that. I think wow can handle both styles of play, you make the normals pugable, nice and non wipe fests for the majority of the players to do (yes the majority of the players lack the skill / dedication / what have you to do Heroic Raids) and then you give these hard ones for the people that relish in having overcome something like that.

Players upset because they want to see all the content.

Blizzard makes normal modes so everyone can see content; heroic modes specifically so elite players can experience a challenge.

Blizzard nerfs heroic modes so everyone can see heroic content.

ITT: People who don't understand

ITT: "All guilds ranked lower than world 150 are bad because they didn't complete everything yet.

its pretty easy to see where blizz went wrong. BC released with t4/t5. no heroic bosses. no such thing at the time. basically t4 kara/gruul was t11 and t5 ssc/tk was t11 heroic mode in the sense that the bad/mediocre players had kara and 1 boss in gruuls till grull got nerfed, while the good players blew through t4 in a couple weeks and moved right into t5. BC had two tiers to spread out the good and the not as good players. you knew what camp you were in if you were in kara vs ssc. When t6 was ready the good players moved there and t5 got nerfed to hell so the t4 guilds could move up and see it. two tiers always having meaning during the whole expansion till the last tier. Now the problem is that instead of 2 tiers being relevant at once, these days there is only one tier with two modes. good and bad players sharing the same tier. some doing normal some doing heroic. I do not support heroic modes. using the same bosses is lazy to me. the good players should be rewarded by raiding one tier above everyone else not raiding the same bosses as everyone else just harder. Go back to the t4/t5 progression split. forget about heroic modes. = win

Originally Posted by darkpower

Fourth, there's going to be NEW content that's going to be as challenging as FL was or might still be.

Not for quite some time though, 4.3 isn't on PTR yet even, this is why it's considered an extremely early nerfing compared to how they have done it in the past.

Originally Posted by darkpower

Finally, Blizzard has said that they made a mistake not making progressive style raiding, which they wanted to do from the very start. This is them doing just that with the content. They nerf the previous tier instance when they introduce new content because it's the new content guilds like Paragon will be doing within seconds of the patch going live.

If it would be progressive then T12 normal would pick up where T11 normal left off, not 6 i-lvls above T11 heroic, and they are nerfing it before the new content is even in testing so it's still current tier.

Originally Posted by Alyssa

Not for quite some time though, 4.3 isn't on PTR yet even, this is why it's considered an extremely early nerfing compared to how they have done it in the past.

This nerfing will be a sign that we might see 4.3 on the PTR extremely soon, though. I hope I'm right.

If it would be progressive then T12 normal would pick up where T11 normal left off, not 6 i-lvls above T11 heroic, and they are nerfing it before the new content is even in testing so it's still current tier.

I'm not talking about gear levels per se. I'm talking about like, say, BoT would be at a lower level of difficulty than, say, BH (not sure which one you'd consider easier, but I'm trying to make a point here). With what Blizz said (and I wish I saved the URL of the exact quote), the mistake was that there was too sharp of a learning curve that you had to do because all of the raids was relatively the same difficulty as the next. If they didn't nerf the content when the next raid patch came in, then FL would've also been at that same difficulty, and it wouldn't have felt like a different tier. That's what they were concerned about (at least what I got out of that).

Originally Posted by darkpower

This nerfing will be a sign that we might see 4.3 on the PTR extremely soon, though. I hope I'm right.



I'm not talking about gear levels per se. I'm talking about like, say, BoT would be at a lower level of difficulty than, say, BH (not sure which one you'd consider easier, but I'm trying to make a point here). With what Blizz said (and I wish I saved the URL of the exact quote), the mistake was that there was too sharp of a learning curve that you had to do because all of the raids was relatively the same difficulty as the next. If they didn't nerf the content when the next raid patch came in, then FL would've also been at that same difficulty, and it wouldn't have felt like a different tier. That's what they were concerned about (at least what I got out of that).

The problem with that way and these nerfs are simply the gear bumps between tiers, those bumps are in them selfs a big enough nerf to allow most people to see the previous content so it's cake on cake kinda deal, besides nerfing old stuff or even normal isn't what causes the outrage atm. And to be honest here, there isn't that many people going back to do the old stuff as the majority's motivation to raid is gear and that is made obsolete with new tiers, this is why heroics are getting nerfed as well i suspect.

Would be interesting to see how many wants to "see the content" if Blizzard adds a ICC style buff to nerf and remove all loot drops and achives if you use it

Another "bend over" patch directed to the casuals, glad i'am not playing anymore.

I am an officer of a TBC guild, for years i was defending Blizzard's changes and decisions but this I can't defend, they didnt like the LK buff where we got 5% every few weeks so they nerf the booses every few weeks instead. Not every guild can do over 24 raid hours a week, we want the challenge, thats why we do 25 HC, then why take it away from us, wasnt that point of HC modes?