Statistics: Firelands Changes Impact, Pumpkin Carving Contest, Fan Art

Originally Posted by velde046

Obligate, I'm assuming you mean entitlement? If so, well paying for it kinda does.
You should have a choice how you want to experience all the content, not be denied of it.

No one is being denied content, it is there up for grabs for those who want to work for it. If you go out and buy yourself a game whether it be Monopoly, Call of Duty, Super Mario, or WoW, it doesn't automatically mean you will always win, or get to finish it just because you happened to pay for it. Especially not if you're not willing to put the required time and effort into it.

Originally Posted by Orochiro

Well, you might be very good but you still are not good enough. Your players are not bad but they still are worse than the ones in guilds that have killed hc ragnaros. Also I can't understand why people always state their ranking based on their region... US 209th guild is what? World rank 500 or something?

I know right? If you aren't top 2 world, you are an utter scrub, and shouldn't even have posting priveledges.


/why yes, that was sarcasm.

IS there a further breakdown of numbers for 10 and 25 man? I'd like to see how many 10m heroic Rag kills there are before and after nerf.

Look I can understand the frustration of players that are unable to kill Heroic Rag. My own guild was unable to kill it before the health nerf which sucks, but our kill did put us in the Top U.S. 50 guilds on WoWprogress (sadly, since the fight only requires three healers, I found myself sitting on our first and second kills) In the end though I’m sorry but It does, 100% come down to the skills and abilities of the people at the keyboards that determine if your boss will die. Don’t believe me? Answer these questions: 1) Do you have raid members consistently dying to the following AVOIDABLE mechanics during fights?
--- Shard tanks on Baelroc dying/passing torment like a moron
--- Dying to swirling tornadoes on Alysrazor/getting hit by meteors/ not DPSing meteors fast enough
--- Shannox cleave/spear throw/Facerage not being broken
--- Multiple high stacks during Rhyoloth/adds killing people.
--- Beth’tilac spiders exploding in raid/dying to devastation
---Domo kitty form leaping in raid/not absorbing cleave/not tanking orbs properly.
2) Look at the DPS of the members in your guild. GO online to World Of Logs or WoWMeters and compare their numbers to other guilds that have cleared the bosses you are working on. If you have a large majority of your raid performing at a FRACTION of the ability of other players in your same class…then you will never kill the hardmodes.

If you answered “Yes, we have multiple people consistently dying to the above easily avoidable mechanics” as well as "yes we have multiple raid members that are performing well below the numbers that equally progressed and geard guilds are putting out," then you will never clear hardmodes.

The long and short of it is that if your guild has people constantly dying, is unable to cope with fight mechanics, and you cannot put out the numbers that people of your same class and gear level are doing, then YOU are the only reason the boss isn’t dead. It’s not that Blizzard hates you, it’s not that the fight is impossible, it’s that your guild members are collectively not performing well enough to meet the minimum requirements to get the kill.

Because I ASSURE you…I promise with every fiber of my being…if you can execute the fight mechanics, have no deaths, and your and all your raid members are performing well, the bosses will die every time.

Originally Posted by dotSeed

You seriously believe a boss tuned to be killable by the majority of the population to offer any sort of challenge to people who even know how to gem and reforge their character? I'm sure all those people who have nothing to do for another six months until another major patch will keep their subscriptions going. For sure.

The problem with your argument is this:

The majority of people don't have 4 hours four times a week that they can dedicate to playing WOW. The majority of wow players (casuals) are getting bored. Farming the same 2 dungeons to get valor to get a bit of extra gear. Pugs are not an option because pugs require 7/7. Guilds want commitment to raiding 2/3/4/5 times a week at a predefined time. A lot of people know how to gem/enchant but can't commit. It's those people that are keeping your precious game alive by funding patches. Not the 0.1% of elitists who feel that the content is too easy and is catering for "casuals". Everyone comes here and complains about how easy the raids are when Blizzard nerf the content after a couple of months. Let me tell you a secret, you can't be that good if it takes you longer than that to complete the content when you are raiding 15 to 20 hours a week.

If you really feel that you need a challenge then switch some of your gear for lower level items and try again. It will certainly be a lot tougher. The real truth is that the majority of people complaining either haven't done the content or don't like the idea of other people (who spend less time on wow than them) getting equivalent gear. Who cares if someone else has "welfare epics". It's those "welfare epics" that are funding the new content every 4 months for you. How much content do you really think you would get with the 0.1% of players as the only funders?

Originally Posted by Aleom

Look I can understand the frustration of players that are unable to kill Heroic Rag. My own guild was unable to kill it before the health nerf which sucks, but our kill did put us in the Top U.S. 50 guilds on WoWprogress (sadly, since the fight only requires three healers, I found myself sitting on our first and second kills) In the end though I’m sorry but It does, 100% come down to the skills and abilities of the people at the keyboards that determine if your boss will die. Don’t believe me? Answer these questions: 1) Do you have raid members consistently dying to the following AVOIDABLE mechanics during fights?
--- Shard tanks on Baelroc dying/passing torment like a moron
--- Dying to swirling tornadoes on Alysrazor/getting hit by meteors/ not DPSing meteors fast enough
--- Shannox cleave/spear throw/Facerage not being broken
--- Multiple high stacks during Rhyoloth/adds killing people.
--- Beth’tilac spiders exploding in raid/dying to devastation
---Domo kitty form leaping in raid/not absorbing cleave/not tanking orbs properly.
2) Look at the DPS of the members in your guild. GO online to World Of Logs or WoWMeters and compare their numbers to other guilds that have cleared the bosses you are working on. If you have a large majority of your raid performing at a FRACTION of the ability of other players in your same class…then you will never kill the hardmodes.

If you answered “Yes, we have multiple people consistently dying to the above easily avoidable mechanics” as well as "yes we have multiple raid members that are performing well below the numbers that equally progressed and geard guilds are putting out," then you will never clear hardmodes.

The long and short of it is that if your guild has people constantly dying, is unable to cope with fight mechanics, and you cannot put out the numbers that people of your same class and gear level are doing, then YOU are the only reason the boss isn’t dead. It’s not that Blizzard hates you, it’s not that the fight is impossible, it’s that your guild members are collectively not performing well enough to meet the minimum requirements to get the kill.

Because I ASSURE you…I promise with every fiber of my being…if you can execute the fight mechanics, have no deaths, and your and all your raid members are performing well, the bosses will die every time.

True-er words have never been spoken. Amen...

Originally Posted by velde046

Obligate, I'm assuming you mean entitlement? If so, well paying for it kinda does.
You should have a choice how you want to experience all the content, not be denied of it. Would be weird if you were reading a book, but would not get the final chapter unless you could prove you read all the previous chapters thoroughly.

That's even the reason why lots of games have cheat modes, because developers realize that people need to be able to see all the stuff in the end, and not throw it in a corner because they hit a wall. If you're skilled enough to do it the hard way, bless you. But not every player has the same skills or even time to master the skills.

All modern games have multiple difficulties and they all have one very high difficulty so people can never get bored because it's too easy for them. No one complains when they can't finish GoW 3 on insane or CoD on hardcore. Yet here in WoW it's a problem.

It's also very weird that people never really complained that much when hardmodes weren't nerfed for more 'casual' players. Then Blizzard does do it because of their own reasons, then people raiding hardmodes complain because they don't want 15% nerfs in hardmodes (in the middle of the expansion (at the end of the expansion it's expected)) and all of a sudden they get jumped on by people who think hardmode Ragnaros is too hard for casual raiders while those raiders have no reason to kill him on hardmode. They got to see the fight on normal, so the "book" has ended, they experienced the story and the whole raid (which is what everyone wanted). The hardmode version has very very minor differences (except this time Ragnaros has legs, first time they made a hardmode with a new fase), a few mechanics, increased health and damage which doesn't give you any satisfaction at all and the same exact gear but only a few ilvls higher.
The only reason they want to kill him in hardmode is for braggin rights and showing off or just because of jeaulousy. Besides that some people also feel the need to bash anyone who does want to be challenged in a game which also shows that they are just jeaulous.

I guess when you pay for another game and can't finish it on hardcore/insane difficulty you also tell them to lower the difficulty because there is only a small amount of people who can pull it off and you have the right to finish hardcore/insane because you payed for it. I really doubt it. I have never seen anyone do that other than on WoW. It's just this mindset of people in this community but if you think about it it makes no sense at all. The rewards you get from normal and hardmode are nearly the same now just like other modern games. For example in GoW 3 you unlock an achievement for finishing the campaign on insane. I don't know if it's in GoW 3 but you can also unlock for example a weapon skin or character. It's practically the same.

p.s. You aren't denied of anything. When you read a book but you don't have time for it then you can't finish it or you can't finish it as fast as someone else. If you have problems reading you will also finish the book later than someone who can read a page in one second.

You are perfectly able to see and finish the content that is available. How you do it is up to you. You can do it in the dark or with a readinglight, you can do it without your glasses on or with your glasses on. If you feel like you don't want to turn on the light and someone else does want to stand up to turn on the light then don't blame anyone else but yourself.

Originally Posted by Syw

No one is being denied content, it is there up for grabs for those who want to work for it. If you go out and buy yourself a game whether it be Monopoly, Call of Duty, Super Mario, or WoW, it doesn't automatically mean you will always win, or get to finish it just because you happened to pay for it. Especially not if you're not willing to put the required time and effort into it.

No, its not about working for it at all. Wow presently favours the people who spend the most time in game, not the most skilled.

End of story. If you can commit to raiding 5 days a week, 5 hours a day, you will clear the content and get geared quicker than someone who plays twice a week. End game only favours groups and groups require commitment in terms of time. Unfortunately, the majority of players have a life and are not able to pour hours and hours into the game.

Posted this on our guild forum 2 days ago. I basically checked when 500th, 750th and 1k-th kill on a boss happened as per worldoflogs. For the simple reason that this tells me more about a boss for our guild than just looking at the world top 50/100.
rag normal:
# 500 - july 3rd
# 750 - july 3rd
# 1000 - july 3rd
1500 guilds killed it within the first lockout

shannox hc:
# 500 - july 6th
# 750 - july 7th
# 1000 - july 7th

lord ryo hc:
# 500 - july 13th
# 750 - july 17th
# 1000 - july 21th

beth hc:
# 500 - july 25th
# 750 - aug 7th
# 1000 - aug 17th

alysrazor hc:
# 500 - july 25th
# 750 - aug 1th
# 1000 - aug 8th

baleroc hc:
# 500 - aug 3th
# 750 - aug 11th
# 1000 - aug 19th

majordomo hc:
# 500 - aug 6th
# 750 - aug 12th
# 1000 - aug 16th

Everyone deserves a trophy, right? You should be rewarded for not winning anything. People who compete solely for the purpose of obtaining trophies don't usually compete long anyways.

Stop spouting things based off these "stats," they aren't even that. No information is better than bad information. Doing a survey based on characters is dumb, accounts would be a better goal, but even that would be skewed. I have 4 accounts, only 2 active at the moment, and how many other people have the same? The 11 million subscribers also include China.

China also just released WotLK, and brought in an even greater number of players, while EU/NA population are plummeting. 600k subscribers lost? Double or triple that maybe for NA/EU and the difference would be the new scripts from China.

Originally Posted by Gray_Matter

Pugs are not an option because pugs require 7/7.

I agree with most of your post aside from this. There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from forming their own PUG, with their own requirements. Odds might be high that it's unsuccessful, but it will get people's feet wet, so to speak... and they'll eventually get enough experience to join other pugs that have higher requirements.

If a player can't be bothered to attempt that, then I seriously question why they want to even raid to begin with, or are concerned with it.

Originally Posted by Gray_Matter

No, its not about working for it at all. Wow presently favours the people who spend the most time in game, not the most skilled. Unfortunately, the majority of players have a life and are not able to pour hours and hours into the game.

Then these players should be smart enough to understand that they can't expect to get everything that the people that work hard and a lot for it do. Just because you paid for your Windows 7 or w/e, do you expect to instantly beat the highest difficulty level in Chess Titans? Probably not. If you don't wish to spend hours on learning how to play chess, then you have 9 other difficultylevels to choose from. I doubt anyone is sending angry emails to Bill Gates that just because they have "life" as opposed to people who spent time learning how to play chess, they should be granted the ability to beat the hardest levels in it. You should just accept the fact that you get what youre willing to work for.

Do you know what i think? The game isn't diffcult at all. Hell, i have people dying in Alysrazor tornadoes post nerf, and still i can kill it easily.

Bad players exists, but they aren't the cause stopping people from raiding. It's a mix of:
- no feeling towards other players/solo-maniacs
- not wanting to invest time on something
- Wrath residues

The fact is, players want to raid. Players would like to down heroic bosses. But they don't do it. because thay don't care of putting up a serious group, don't care about teamwork, they just want to nuke big bosses and feel awesome with their new purples. Most of the people just raided through PUGs in Wrath, now they don't do anything since they don't have gust to create one. They literally want the things handed to them with minimal effort.

It's not about farming flasks or learing the class, it's about "i play the game and i want to kill stuff, so i can prove i'm better". I. I. I. I. Too bad WoW is a game for WE. The graphs show only this. Millions of people pay and play, they all have the same opportunities, but still they don't understand it's an MMO and pretend they can do everything by themselves.

People scream for nerfs because they want to things alone, they don't feel right to need the help of someone else. All guilds that do some raiding have accomplished something - vast majority of players don't even belong to a guild.

Originally Posted by melodramocracy

Odd how only 2600 or so players have killed H Rag. But if you hang out on these forums, you'll find at least 3000 folks who claim to have done it in their sleep, while pointing the 'ubad!' finger at other posters.

Haha, this. I'm amazed how many ignorant false "elitists" there are on MMO-Champ.

I really want to see the spec breakdown by class for Heroic Rag kills.

Originally Posted by Firebert

That's hardly fair on casuals. Raid access is a great problem at the moment (hence the Raid Finder in 4.3), as well as difficulty. I'm pretty sure that casuals don't find ZA/ZG difficult.

You might find this interesting then. Only 50.1% of the characters sampled have the Heroic ZA achievement. Only 23% have earned the 5000 Valor Points achievement.

Originally Posted by Sensa

There is ONLY ONE CONCLUSION that you can draw from the statistics presented and that is:

BLIZZARD ACHIEVED THEIR OBJECTIVE OF DRAMATICALLY INCREASING FIRELAND'S PROGRESSION AS A RESULT OF THE MASSIVE NERFS ON SEPTEMBER 20TH ONLY.

The earlier nerf did not dramatically increase progression rates.

Yup, that was all this data was intended to show, not how hard the bosses are overall. That could come later by filtering down to players active in the last month that have earned at least 5k valor points, or maybe have killed at least one raid boss in Firelands. Trying to claim that Firelands is hard because alts aren't raiding it is silly.

Originally Posted by Aldrox

I believe pool is all who killed at least 1 heroic boss. So 97.4% of those who scored at least 1 hc kill killed Shannox.

Yup!

Originally Posted by Leeonidas

IS there a further breakdown of numbers for 10 and 25 man? I'd like to see how many 10m heroic Rag kills there are before and after nerf.

Not at this time, WoWProgress is a better source for that information as I am not tracking a breakdown like that.

Why i am not surprised at paladins and druids being at the top of the chart and shamans at the bottom along with rogues?

Originally Posted by Firebert

Not the entire playerbase is in this. Only 2.7m level 85s out of 11.1m charaters.

You're misstating the numbers. 11.1 million paying accounts is the number, which is beyond a shadow of a doubt more than 11.1 characters total between those accounts.

As of about 1 week ago less than 3,000 people have defeated heroic rag. That's with the patch being in for like a month. Any person that claimed they were affected by this change, you and your guild, are full of shit.

Originally Posted by Canbie

My point is yes most players are bad at raiding. Blizz either need to tune the encounters accordingly or teach people how to raid.

Blizzard needs to stop nerfing / giving easy fights to the baddies.

If the game is too hard, stop playing.. that needs to be blizzards stance... it was in vanilla/BC.. it should be today.

Instead Wrath of the Mistake King came out, encouraged tons of baddies (OMG.. I NEVER DOWNED MC/KARA IN MY LIFE.. BUT NOW IM DOWNING THE LK!!!) to join the game/hang around... now that Cata was too hard and back to original wow style, people whine and blizzard complies.

Solution: Keep them hard and people will get use to it.