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Dev Watercooler -- The Role of Role
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker)
The Deluge
A monsoon is coming. We will soon inundate you with Mists of Pandaria information, starting with the upcoming media event and everything that follows. It’s going to be a very exciting time for World of Warcraft, and we are all super impatient for it to happen.

But… we’re not quite there yet. I want to make that clear upfront, because this blog isn’t directly Mists of Pandaria related. You won’t find any announcements here, just a philosophical discussion that you may or may not find interesting. If you’re looking for thrilling announcements, you know what I’m going to say: Soon™.

Multiple DPS Roles
I said this blog isn’t directly relevant though, because I want to discuss a topic that we did struggle with a lot during Mists development, and indeed through most of World of Warcraft. We have classes with multiple DPS specs, and for mage, warlock, hunter, rogue, warrior and death knight, there isn’t even a melee vs. ranged distinction between those DPS specs. The question comes up all the time: “what is the role of these roles?” I don’t think there is a right answer here, and we’ve even changed the design a few times over the last several years. Again, I’m not couching this in terms of an imminent announcement or anything. This is fundamentally one of those designs that could go in a lot of different directions. It’s something we discuss a lot, and we figured given the strong opinions of our forum-posting community, many of you probably do as well.

A paladin can choose from among specs that let her be a tank, melee DPS or healer, and can shift around which role she fills in a raid or BG team from week to week. Through the Dual Spec feature, she can even do so within a single evening. If her group doesn’t need another healer, or if she needs a break from tanking, she can become a DPS spec fairly easily without having to swap to a different character. A warlock doesn’t have that luxury. Yet, the warlock still has three specs. Is the idea, then, that you are supposed to swap from Destruction to Demonology and back depending on the situation? Is the idea that you play Affliction if you like dots and Destruction if you like nukes? Or do you just switch to whatever theoretically does 1% more DPS for the next fight?

Players are sometimes cavalier about throwing around the claim that there’s a “lack of design direction” when they want their character buffed. Of course, classes always have a design direction; players just sometimes disagree with it. My point is that just because we debate whether the current design is the best possible one doesn’t mean there isn’t a design at all. That distinction is important. And of course, we do have a directive for which DPS spec you should play: whichever one you enjoy the most. But that doesn’t mean that is the best model or that it can’t ever change. There are other models we could try.

Model One – Everyone is equal all the time
If your DPS and utility are the same across specs, then you just play whichever one you prefer. Maybe you like the kit of the Frost mage, or maybe you like the rotation of the Fury warrior, so you play them. As I said above, this has been the model we have used for a while now, with mixed success. The challenge is that “all the time” caveat. We can get all of the DPS specs pretty close together on target dummies, and indeed they actually are very close on target dummies today. Our encounters aren’t target dummies though. Having some adds increases the damage of dot-specs. Having lots of adds increases the damage of strong AE specs. Having to move on a fight, and how often and far you have to move, can cause DPS to go up or down differently. Even if DPS is only off by a few percentage points, many players will respec to the one with the highest DPS (even if it’s theoretical, even if for them they will do lower personal DPS than if they had stuck with a more familiar spec). A mage who just loves Fire might be frustrated if he ever has to go Arcane, while another player might be happy that he gets to try different specs for different fights.

The class stacking we’ve seen on the Spine of Deathwing encounter relates to the need for massive burst damage in a specific window, such that the difference between a one minute DPS cooldown and a two minute DPS cooldown matters. Even if we could make sure every spec had the same AE vs. single target damage, do we now need to also ensure every spec can do the same DPS in burst windows of various lengths? Is that even mathematically possible? Or do we just test every spec for every raid encounter of the current tier and tweak class mechanics around for whatever is the current status quo? That implies a high rate of change, and I wonder if we’d lose a little bit of the fun of experimentation and theorycrafting if it was basically accepted that you could take any spec to any fight and do about the same damage. It’s more balanced, yes, but does it lack depth or flavor? Is it fun?

Model Two – Everyone has specialties and you match the spec to the situation
Under this model, we would establish spec specialties. For example, Arcane could be good for single-target fights while Fire is great at AE fights. Some of that design already exists in the game, but we try not to overdo it. If you really like playing one mage spec, or really detest constant spec swapping, then this model isn’t going to be to your liking. Furthermore, we don’t want to overstrain our boss design by having to meet a certain quota of AE vs. single target fights and movement vs. stationary fights and burn phase vs. longevity fights or whatever. It is also really hard to engineer these situations in Arenas or Battlegrounds (for example, both mobility and burst are extremely desirable in PvP), so in those scenarios there still may just be one acceptable spec.

Model Three – You swap specs to gain specific utility
If we used this model, then you might switch out to a different spec to gain a specific spell. Again, we have some of this today. A DK might want Unholy’s Anti-Magic Zone for a certain fight. Hunters might go Beastmaster to pick up a missing raid buff. Mages might go Fire for situations where Combustion shines. Druids might go Balance when they need the knockback from Typhoon. A little of this sort of thing goes a long way though. As in Model One, not every player wants to have to swap specs. If you just like Survival, you might resent having to go BM to just to buff someone. If knockbacks are too potent, then it really constrains your raid composition and makes even casual guilds feel like they need to keep a stable of alts or benched players for every fight. If, for example, there wasn’t a boss in the current raid tier for which warrior abilities really shine, then warriors start to feel like a third wheel, yet trying to make sure every boss in a tier has a moment for every spec to shine is a pretty daunting task.

The extreme case of this is the “utility” spec who does middling DPS, but brings a lot of synergy and utility that improves all of the other specs. This was the Burning Crusade model, where classes like shaman and Shadow priests were brought to raids just to make the pure classes (and warriors, who were always treated as pure classes back then for some reason) do better DPS. In Lich King, we changed the design to make different raid buffs and abilities more widespread and give groups much more flexibility in their raid (and to some extent dungeon) comps. We heard from Shadow priests that they wanted to do competitive damage, not just be there to make everyone else more awesome. But even today we get a lot of requests to improve the utility of someone’s spec so that they are more likely to get invited to a group.

Model Four – There is just a best spec for PvP and PvE
This was the model of vanilla World of Warcraft, and we understand some players wouldn’t mind it returning. In this model Arms and Frost and Subtlety (and other specs) were designed to be good for PvP, while others, Fury and Fire and Combat perhaps, were designed to be good for PvE. The PvP specs might have better mobility or survivability or burst damage, while the PvE specs have better sustained damage over the course of a 6-10 minute boss fight. A lot has changed since vanilla. We don’t make many raid or dungeon encounters these days where DPS specs can just stand in one place and burn down a boss. Mobility, survivability, and burst damage can all be really useful on particular encounters, sometimes trumping the higher DPS offered by a competing spec. (There’s that old adage that dead do zero DPS.) In addition, if there is a PvP spec and a PvE spec, then for pure classes that implies that your third spec lacks much of a role. (The good leveling spec? Is that exciting?) Furthermore, our Mists of Pandaria talent tree design explicitly takes away some of the tools from the traditional PvP specs and makes them available to other specs in the class. If this works out, then you can take your Frost mage raiding, or have an Arcane mage for PvP who uses some of what traditionally were Frost’s control and escape tools. That’s great if you PvP and love Arcane, or PvE and love Frost. It’s less cool if you were the kind of player who was totally comfortable with the simpler (and possibly easier to balance) design of having dedicated PvP vs. PvE specs.

Model Five – Don’t have multiple DPS roles
This is the most controversial model and the one that would require the most change, meaning we are almost certainly never going to do it. For sake of completeness though, you can argue that classes never should have been designed with multiple specs that fill the same role. In this model, either Arms or Fury goes away and gets replaced with something. (Archery? Healing?) Warlocks and other pure classes would need a massive redo to end up with say a melee and tanking warlock. Everyone becomes a hybrid. The hardest decisions becomes whether you want to be the ranged or melee DPS version of your class (like druids or shaman). This idea is elegant from a design perspective because it un-asks all of those questions about how much more damage pure classes should do than hybrids to justify their narrower utility. But, perhaps counter-intuitively, elegant designs often aren’t the strongest ones (I could write a whole blog on that topic alone). Model Five is the kind of rhetorical question you could go back in time and ask before WoW launched, but not the kind of thing we could change today without taking an enormous amount of effort, to say nothing of the irate players who would feel bamboozled that we were so dramatically changing their character out from under them. I try to never say never, but this model isn’t the kind of change you make in a mature game. It’s here only for completeness and because I suspect some of you will bring it up.

But Which is the Best Model?
Hell if I know! I fundamentally believe that none of these models is, without question, the obvious right one. All of them have advantages and disadvantages, and there are probably other models you could come up with that are variants on these five, or perhaps even something new. Like I said, we’re not announcing a philosophy change yet. If we get enough feedback for one model or another, we might eventually change our minds. Also for this blog we’re going to lock the comments and ask that you post your replies in this forum thread. Just remember that even we don’t believe that there is one correct answer, so please keep that in mind when you’re composing your feedback.

Activision Blizzard Q4 2011 Conference Call
The Q4 2011 Earnings call will take place tomorrow at 1:30 PM PST and will bring us an update on subscriber numbers for the final quarter of 2011. Keep in mind last call informed us of a 800,000 subscribers loss, but this time around the Annual Pass and Patch 4.3 may soften the blow.

During the previous call they wanted to remind investors that there is normally an increase in subscriptions around December, with previous quarters showing the following losses:



This article was originally published in forum thread: Dev Watercooler -- The Role of Role, Blizzard Q4 2011 Conference Call Reminder started by chaud View original post
Comments 166 Comments
  1. Alayea's Avatar
    Honestly, I was very happy with how things turned out in WotLK (ToC excepted).
  1. stuck4cash's Avatar
    Model Six - Drop redundant specs.Mages, rogues, hunters and warlocks now get 1 spec (maybe 2 for hunters if they want to go back to melee dps). You pick the spells you should use based on the fight and get everything available to you.It too has it's drawbacks and people would feel that have less choice but really, your choice is in the class you play, not the spec.
  1. Asatru's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by stuck4cash View Post
    Model Six - Drop redundant specs.Mages, rogues, hunters and warlocks now get 1 spec (maybe 2 for hunters if they want to go back to melee dps). You pick the spells you should use based on the fight and get everything available to you.It too has it's drawbacks and people would feel that have less choice but really, your choice is in the class you play, not the spec.
    Except for the fact that Hunters are losing their Melee Weapon in MoP.
  1. morph4037's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Asatru View Post
    You do realize that Shamans were originally designed to be a hybrid tank class right? Stoneclaw Totem, Rockbiter weapon and defense on Mail gear. Blizzard, however, abandoned this thought process in order to prevent raiding/5man loot tables from being any more bloated than they were already.
    Yes I am well aware they were gimmicky OT's at best. And I'm very glad they decided not to invest anymore time into it after Vanilla.
  1. morph4037's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodMcChuck View Post
    Again, you fail to make any argument whatsoever against it.
    Your ability to state the obvious is truly astounding.
  1. Mormolyce's Avatar
    All you people saying Ghostcrawler doesn't know what he's doing - you've totally missed the point of the Dev watercooler. It's not Moses coming down from the mountain to proclaim to the people the words of God from stone tablets. It's a window into the thoughts and discussions the design team have about the direction of the game and their objectives with each gameplay element. You know, like a watercooler discussion? The whole point is he's talking about possibilities and thoughts rather than laying down a final direction that they've decided on.

    As such it's a valuable insight, I always find them very interesting. It also shows that they think about these issues that are a big part of quality of life for us players, and when you read them you realise they're considering solutions to this, from the minor to the dramatic. So when they make big announcements like the talent revamp and so on that are so controversial, you can follow their reasoning and see WHY they think it's necessary (and agree or disagree/rage up the forums/QQ like crazy as is your wont).

    I thought it was a well thought-out discussion of an issue that I've thought of as well while playing the game, and I'm sure a lot of other players have too. It's especially highlighted with SWTOR coming out with a highly hybridised class makeup, and all the relevant pros and cons.
  1. Shadzta's Avatar
    Well i went to post my 2 cents on the official forums but because I'm no longer a subscriber i can't post on their forums. That in itself is bullshit in my opinion. I understand its to stop trolls etc etc. However surely there is a way to distinguish between how long someone has been unsubscribed or how their forum account is in good standing or something to allow those still interested in the game but don't want to sub back just to post -_-.

    Anyway personally I'm really sincerely feeling number 5. Even if we have to limit down some specs etc. So warriors melee dps tank and thats it. Hell I'm sure you could give warriors a ranged berserker spec. Kinda like troll warlord from back in Dota. Throwing axe or something similar. Long story short i believe we are in a stage where the conventional MMO design is stale. Needs to be shaken up. It almost feels like change with the times or die. Soon there will be a game that gets it "right" . As in is far better than anything else on the market but obviously still with inherent flaws from varying opinions. SW:TOR made its mark. While it failed in a lot of ways it did some good. Personally I'm finger crossing that we'll see Guild Wars 2 really dent the MMO populace. WoW has to adapt or die.
  1. Kiasari's Avatar
    GC comes off as very intuitive and intelligent in this...I welcome it. I even sense some humbleness. Please please please let this be a sign of things to come... don't punish me or make me look stupid for having faith, Blizzard. :\
  1. mmocaee220772b's Avatar
    I want a fat kungfu panda with every spell in the game ! And i will raid with my pokemon pets all day long !! .. fuck this game
  1. morph4037's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodMcChuck View Post
    If you're too stupid to formulate an argument, don't bother replying with diversionary tactics or straw man arguments to avoid having to support your retarded points.
    I'm just stating my opinion not trying to sway anyone to my views, or make any "retarded points" as you call them. However, continue on with your trolling since it's apparent that's what you enjoy.
  1. Korgoth's Avatar
    Model 4 by far is the best model. It makes balancing work well in pvp, and pve by reducing the number of specs in both. As he mentions multiple specs of the same role does not work well in pve due to the fact that 1 will always be better, even if by a little bit, and players will flock to it, making the other one well pointless. In PvP they have shown they dont have the brain power or the talent or the desire to balance all the specs for it, so going back to a 10 spec system will greatly ease balancing to the point that maybe they can do it, especially if they fire GC so they can balance mages and rogues.The only problem with model 4 is pures having a "useless" spec. Well the truth is that spec is useless now anyway. For pures maybe give them 1 pvp spec and 2 pve, with one pve spec aimed more for aoe and one for single target, and they dual spec switch it mid instance depending on the fight.
  1. Draxz's Avatar
    My bet is they won"t show us Diablo 3 or MoP till their "Annual Pass" deal is finished or close to finished, so they can reap their money with less dropouts from subscription. This last patch isn't enough to keep us till september guys...
  1. mmoc6653dda655's Avatar
    I think there are a few things that they're going to have to address with the talents, and at this late hour here's one example:

    PvE/PvP

    For certain classes in particular (Eg/ Ret paladins, hybrids and so on), they have to carry the burden of having only one spec for each task, which means inevitably having to sacrifice some talent points that some other classes might get to use for beneficial spells/effects in PvE, for PvP effects purely because they have no other choice (Eg/ Sacred Shield being on all Ret Paladin builds despite being a skill that should never even have to be procced if all goes well in PvE).

    On the same token, pure classes have suffered greatly due to the homogenisation; it used to be the case that Hybrids could do every job okay, and pures (namely/only dps for that matter), did their job best, because it's the only job they had. What complicates this now is things like LFD/LFR and so on, where hybrids can do just as good if not better than pure DPS (Warlocks being morbidly clunky/difficult at the moment to name but one example), as well as having access to other much more beneficial roles (Tanks/healers always being in demand, getting instant queues etc), which is a luxury that pure DPS do not have. Blizzard said their idea for Cata was to "bring the player, not the class", and yet it remained the case of "bring the class, not the player", which to be frank is something I don't think they'll escape. I would personally see their homogenisation efforts scrapped in favour of making classes unique/special again, but whatever I think, they're going to need to find a solution. Seperate PvE/PvP talent trees would be a very easy fix in my opinion.
  1. mmoc13730f472a's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by morph4037 View Post
    /slap

    Really terrible idea.
    Look up the name "Sharicasmi" on Youtube, or "shaman tank", for that matter.

    I'm sure he'd like a word or two with you.
  1. morph4037's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Beadyeye View Post
    Look up the name "Sharicasmi" on Youtube, or "shaman tank", for that matter.

    I'm sure he'd like a word or two with you.
    I've seen some of his vids. It's just how I feel and trying not to debate it one way or another lol. *shrug* :P

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