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Dev Watercooler -- The Role of Role
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker)
The Deluge
A monsoon is coming. We will soon inundate you with Mists of Pandaria information, starting with the upcoming media event and everything that follows. It’s going to be a very exciting time for World of Warcraft, and we are all super impatient for it to happen.

But… we’re not quite there yet. I want to make that clear upfront, because this blog isn’t directly Mists of Pandaria related. You won’t find any announcements here, just a philosophical discussion that you may or may not find interesting. If you’re looking for thrilling announcements, you know what I’m going to say: Soon™.

Multiple DPS Roles
I said this blog isn’t directly relevant though, because I want to discuss a topic that we did struggle with a lot during Mists development, and indeed through most of World of Warcraft. We have classes with multiple DPS specs, and for mage, warlock, hunter, rogue, warrior and death knight, there isn’t even a melee vs. ranged distinction between those DPS specs. The question comes up all the time: “what is the role of these roles?” I don’t think there is a right answer here, and we’ve even changed the design a few times over the last several years. Again, I’m not couching this in terms of an imminent announcement or anything. This is fundamentally one of those designs that could go in a lot of different directions. It’s something we discuss a lot, and we figured given the strong opinions of our forum-posting community, many of you probably do as well.

A paladin can choose from among specs that let her be a tank, melee DPS or healer, and can shift around which role she fills in a raid or BG team from week to week. Through the Dual Spec feature, she can even do so within a single evening. If her group doesn’t need another healer, or if she needs a break from tanking, she can become a DPS spec fairly easily without having to swap to a different character. A warlock doesn’t have that luxury. Yet, the warlock still has three specs. Is the idea, then, that you are supposed to swap from Destruction to Demonology and back depending on the situation? Is the idea that you play Affliction if you like dots and Destruction if you like nukes? Or do you just switch to whatever theoretically does 1% more DPS for the next fight?

Players are sometimes cavalier about throwing around the claim that there’s a “lack of design direction” when they want their character buffed. Of course, classes always have a design direction; players just sometimes disagree with it. My point is that just because we debate whether the current design is the best possible one doesn’t mean there isn’t a design at all. That distinction is important. And of course, we do have a directive for which DPS spec you should play: whichever one you enjoy the most. But that doesn’t mean that is the best model or that it can’t ever change. There are other models we could try.

Model One – Everyone is equal all the time
If your DPS and utility are the same across specs, then you just play whichever one you prefer. Maybe you like the kit of the Frost mage, or maybe you like the rotation of the Fury warrior, so you play them. As I said above, this has been the model we have used for a while now, with mixed success. The challenge is that “all the time” caveat. We can get all of the DPS specs pretty close together on target dummies, and indeed they actually are very close on target dummies today. Our encounters aren’t target dummies though. Having some adds increases the damage of dot-specs. Having lots of adds increases the damage of strong AE specs. Having to move on a fight, and how often and far you have to move, can cause DPS to go up or down differently. Even if DPS is only off by a few percentage points, many players will respec to the one with the highest DPS (even if it’s theoretical, even if for them they will do lower personal DPS than if they had stuck with a more familiar spec). A mage who just loves Fire might be frustrated if he ever has to go Arcane, while another player might be happy that he gets to try different specs for different fights.

The class stacking we’ve seen on the Spine of Deathwing encounter relates to the need for massive burst damage in a specific window, such that the difference between a one minute DPS cooldown and a two minute DPS cooldown matters. Even if we could make sure every spec had the same AE vs. single target damage, do we now need to also ensure every spec can do the same DPS in burst windows of various lengths? Is that even mathematically possible? Or do we just test every spec for every raid encounter of the current tier and tweak class mechanics around for whatever is the current status quo? That implies a high rate of change, and I wonder if we’d lose a little bit of the fun of experimentation and theorycrafting if it was basically accepted that you could take any spec to any fight and do about the same damage. It’s more balanced, yes, but does it lack depth or flavor? Is it fun?

Model Two – Everyone has specialties and you match the spec to the situation
Under this model, we would establish spec specialties. For example, Arcane could be good for single-target fights while Fire is great at AE fights. Some of that design already exists in the game, but we try not to overdo it. If you really like playing one mage spec, or really detest constant spec swapping, then this model isn’t going to be to your liking. Furthermore, we don’t want to overstrain our boss design by having to meet a certain quota of AE vs. single target fights and movement vs. stationary fights and burn phase vs. longevity fights or whatever. It is also really hard to engineer these situations in Arenas or Battlegrounds (for example, both mobility and burst are extremely desirable in PvP), so in those scenarios there still may just be one acceptable spec.

Model Three – You swap specs to gain specific utility
If we used this model, then you might switch out to a different spec to gain a specific spell. Again, we have some of this today. A DK might want Unholy’s Anti-Magic Zone for a certain fight. Hunters might go Beastmaster to pick up a missing raid buff. Mages might go Fire for situations where Combustion shines. Druids might go Balance when they need the knockback from Typhoon. A little of this sort of thing goes a long way though. As in Model One, not every player wants to have to swap specs. If you just like Survival, you might resent having to go BM to just to buff someone. If knockbacks are too potent, then it really constrains your raid composition and makes even casual guilds feel like they need to keep a stable of alts or benched players for every fight. If, for example, there wasn’t a boss in the current raid tier for which warrior abilities really shine, then warriors start to feel like a third wheel, yet trying to make sure every boss in a tier has a moment for every spec to shine is a pretty daunting task.

The extreme case of this is the “utility” spec who does middling DPS, but brings a lot of synergy and utility that improves all of the other specs. This was the Burning Crusade model, where classes like shaman and Shadow priests were brought to raids just to make the pure classes (and warriors, who were always treated as pure classes back then for some reason) do better DPS. In Lich King, we changed the design to make different raid buffs and abilities more widespread and give groups much more flexibility in their raid (and to some extent dungeon) comps. We heard from Shadow priests that they wanted to do competitive damage, not just be there to make everyone else more awesome. But even today we get a lot of requests to improve the utility of someone’s spec so that they are more likely to get invited to a group.

Model Four – There is just a best spec for PvP and PvE
This was the model of vanilla World of Warcraft, and we understand some players wouldn’t mind it returning. In this model Arms and Frost and Subtlety (and other specs) were designed to be good for PvP, while others, Fury and Fire and Combat perhaps, were designed to be good for PvE. The PvP specs might have better mobility or survivability or burst damage, while the PvE specs have better sustained damage over the course of a 6-10 minute boss fight. A lot has changed since vanilla. We don’t make many raid or dungeon encounters these days where DPS specs can just stand in one place and burn down a boss. Mobility, survivability, and burst damage can all be really useful on particular encounters, sometimes trumping the higher DPS offered by a competing spec. (There’s that old adage that dead do zero DPS.) In addition, if there is a PvP spec and a PvE spec, then for pure classes that implies that your third spec lacks much of a role. (The good leveling spec? Is that exciting?) Furthermore, our Mists of Pandaria talent tree design explicitly takes away some of the tools from the traditional PvP specs and makes them available to other specs in the class. If this works out, then you can take your Frost mage raiding, or have an Arcane mage for PvP who uses some of what traditionally were Frost’s control and escape tools. That’s great if you PvP and love Arcane, or PvE and love Frost. It’s less cool if you were the kind of player who was totally comfortable with the simpler (and possibly easier to balance) design of having dedicated PvP vs. PvE specs.

Model Five – Don’t have multiple DPS roles
This is the most controversial model and the one that would require the most change, meaning we are almost certainly never going to do it. For sake of completeness though, you can argue that classes never should have been designed with multiple specs that fill the same role. In this model, either Arms or Fury goes away and gets replaced with something. (Archery? Healing?) Warlocks and other pure classes would need a massive redo to end up with say a melee and tanking warlock. Everyone becomes a hybrid. The hardest decisions becomes whether you want to be the ranged or melee DPS version of your class (like druids or shaman). This idea is elegant from a design perspective because it un-asks all of those questions about how much more damage pure classes should do than hybrids to justify their narrower utility. But, perhaps counter-intuitively, elegant designs often aren’t the strongest ones (I could write a whole blog on that topic alone). Model Five is the kind of rhetorical question you could go back in time and ask before WoW launched, but not the kind of thing we could change today without taking an enormous amount of effort, to say nothing of the irate players who would feel bamboozled that we were so dramatically changing their character out from under them. I try to never say never, but this model isn’t the kind of change you make in a mature game. It’s here only for completeness and because I suspect some of you will bring it up.

But Which is the Best Model?
Hell if I know! I fundamentally believe that none of these models is, without question, the obvious right one. All of them have advantages and disadvantages, and there are probably other models you could come up with that are variants on these five, or perhaps even something new. Like I said, we’re not announcing a philosophy change yet. If we get enough feedback for one model or another, we might eventually change our minds. Also for this blog we’re going to lock the comments and ask that you post your replies in this forum thread. Just remember that even we don’t believe that there is one correct answer, so please keep that in mind when you’re composing your feedback.

Activision Blizzard Q4 2011 Conference Call
The Q4 2011 Earnings call will take place tomorrow at 1:30 PM PST and will bring us an update on subscriber numbers for the final quarter of 2011. Keep in mind last call informed us of a 800,000 subscribers loss, but this time around the Annual Pass and Patch 4.3 may soften the blow.

During the previous call they wanted to remind investors that there is normally an increase in subscriptions around December, with previous quarters showing the following losses:



This article was originally published in forum thread: Dev Watercooler -- The Role of Role, Blizzard Q4 2011 Conference Call Reminder started by chaud View original post
Comments 166 Comments
  1. Charsi's Avatar
    Model five was skewed because there are three talent trees (specs) per class - in the case of Druid, that will be four in MoP.There should be two specs, not three or four. But that would require two classes taking heavy cuts and the four pure dps classes gaining some alternate role.

    I imagine they'll take a uniform approach next mmo and say each class has exactly x roles.
  1. Flaks's Avatar
    You can see that model 4 was thrown in there practically as an afterthought of something long forgotten and better left as such. It is really the only reasonable model. Specs that bring competitive PvE damage have no business bringing absurd utility as that is literally never needed in PvE. I love the bullshit he pulls with "dead dps" because the utility PvP players refer to cannot prevent a death in PvE (talking about ring of frost and smokebomb mostly).
  1. Lightred's Avatar
    I wouldn't want a 4th spec, but tweaking a spec or perhaps adding more Support-type options might work. Paladin, Druid, Monk will stay as they are. Priest = Disc. gets more reliant on absorbs and Atonement-style damage-to-healing mechanics, with a little direct healing thrown in. Warrior = Arms more focused on Support perhaps? Throwdown, Intervene (no shield required, usable more often) for damage prevention. Shaman = Melee and ranged DPS are different enough to not require a change, but an Earth element based tanking spec would be very interesting. DK = Unholy becomes more Undead minion focused, give more ranged options, with melee thrown in. Pure classes would need a larger change. Hunter = Beast. would be more pet/melee focused. Give them a second pet. The hunter would still be ranged though. Warlock = Demo could become a Tanking class, or just make them more Pet-focused. Rogue = I wouldn't want a Dodge tank, but no other ideas. They are the one class that I can't get into playing. Mage = Make Frost more Support-focused. Able to cast an Icy Shield on players, or a AMZ/PW: Barrier targetable damage prevention.
  1. Lightred's Avatar
    I wouldn't want a 4th spec, but tweaking a spec or perhaps adding more Support-type options might work. Paladin, Druid, Monk will stay as they are. Priest = Disc. gets more reliant on absorbs and Atonement-style damage-to-healing mechanics, with a little direct healing thrown in. Warrior = Arms more focused on Support perhaps? Throwdown, Intervene (no shield required, usable more often) for damage prevention. Shaman = Melee and ranged DPS are different enough to not require a change, but an Earth element based tanking spec would be very interesting. DK = Unholy becomes more Undead minion focused, give more ranged options, with melee thrown in. Pure classes would need a larger change. Hunter = Beast. would be more pet/melee focused. Give them a second pet. The hunter would still be ranged though. Warlock = Demo could become a Tanking class, or just make them more Pet-focused. Rogue = I wouldn't want a Dodge tank, but no other ideas. They are the one class that I can't get into playing. Mage = Make Frost more Support-focused. Able to cast an Icy Shield on players, or a AMZ/PW: Barrier targetable damage prevention.
  1. ZeroWashu's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    You can see that model 4 was thrown in there practically as an afterthought of something long forgotten and better left as such. It is really the only reasonable model. Specs that bring competitive PvE damage have no business bringing absurd utility as that is literally never needed in PvE. I love the bullshit he pulls with "dead dps" because the utility PvP players refer to cannot prevent a death in PvE (talking about ring of frost and smokebomb mostly).
    Its not like DPS only classes need more than two trees, that is the thing they dare not speak.
  1. Lightred's Avatar
    I wouldn't want a 4th spec, but tweaking a spec or perhaps adding more Support-type options might work.

    Paladin, Druid, Monk will stay as they are.

    Priest = Disc. gets more reliant on absorbs and Atonement-style damage-to-healing mechanics, with a little direct healing thrown in.
    Warrior = Arms more focused on Support perhaps? Throwdown, Intervene (no shield required, usable more often) for damage prevention.
    Shaman = Melee and ranged DPS are different enough to not require a change, but an Earth element based tanking spec would be very interesting.
    DK = Unholy becomes more Undead minion focused, give more ranged options, with melee thrown in.

    Pure classes would need a larger change.

    Hunter = Beast. would be more pet/melee focused. Give them a second pet. The hunter would still be ranged though.
    Warlock = Demo could become a Tanking class, or just make them more Pet-focused.
    Rogue = I wouldn't want a Dodge tank, but no other ideas. They are the one class that I can't get into playing.
    Mage = Make Frost more Support-focused. Able to cast an Icy Shield on players, or a AMZ/PW: Barrier targetable damage prevention.
  1. Jackkernaut's Avatar
    I think blizzard should make some sort of 'arcane warrior' spec which mean it can swich between Range/Melee in the middle of the fight without respecing (it means mages can melee and tanks can switch to DPS like feral druids only with different skills). It not make sense that some classes are severely hurt in term of DPS because of a specific raid design.
  1. lilbuddhaman's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikehuntz View Post
    You're so all knowning please link sources of this confirmation
    The last few years of patch notes. Perhaps you can brush up on your reading comprehension skills and see I made no claims that this ABSOLUTELY CONFIRMED 100%. It's theory based off what has happened in the past, and what is continuing to happen. Have you not seen the massive amount of homogenization that has occurred since LK ? Since BC ? (Who am I kidding, you probably never even set foot in BC areas let alone played during those days).
  1. Ghul's Avatar
    just let blizzard do what they wanna do... they have grown to what they are today without your help, so they can keep going without it either ~~
  1. lilbuddhaman's Avatar
    No change in subs from Q3 to Q4, from conf. call.
  1. Rigrot's Avatar
    The only tank and spank fights in Cata was Ultra and almost Ping Pong Champion. Patchwerk, Razuvious, Gothik, Lotheb and Gluth the DPS did not have to move, though that was an old vanilla instance redone. Vanilla had plenty of flights the dps did nothing but focus fire the boss. Blizz has done a good job at requiring moment in boss fights especially in 5 mans
  1. Pasture's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Asatru View Post
    I got that impression too. While reading on and on I literally said to myself: "Ghostcrawler just has no idea what he wants to do with WoW anymore." He's lost all focus entirely.
    He knows exactly which one he'd prefer to focus on. He's pitching himself as indifferent / equally bemused to appear neutral. I feel like option 4 was put in their specifically to gauge community reaction.
  1. Mormolyce's Avatar
    Model 4 is highly controversial and would likely alienate a LOT of players. Hell remember the QQ when they decided DKs would only have one tanking tree? Multiply that by 30.

    It's elegant from a gameplay perspective, but it also makes elements of the game kind of absurd. Rogue tanks? Warlock healers? I mean, that's silly.

    Also, people seem to be suggesting making every DPS class able to tank, probably because this seems less of a stretch than making Hunter and Rogue healers. Bear in mind that tank slots are quite limited in the game - 2 per 10m raid and STILL ONLY 2 per 25m raid (Blizzard hasn't made a true 3-tank fight in a long time now). Hell a lot of fights can be 1-tanked. Being able to spec tank really wouldn't help a lot, in my experience the game desperately needs more healers.
  1. blackwaltz7's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by WoodMcChuck View Post
    Sounds to me like it's more along the lines of you wanting an automatic raid slot on your Priest rather than having to actually be good enough to earn it.
    i don't actually have a priest but i believe that's how it should be. i don't care how good of a - for argument's sake - rogue i am. if the fight they're going into doesn't require what my class can do, i should be left out. end of story. other wise there is NO POINT in having classes
  1. Ealyssa's Avatar
    Can't stop dreaming of an archery specced warrior now. It seams that model 5 is the GW2 model. And it attract me alot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Rogue tanks? Warlock healers? I mean, that's silly.
    Silly ? It sounds awesome for me. I like wow how it is now (even if I only play "hybrids", can't stand with a class locked in one role.) but I would LOVE if some roles were added to few classes.
    What if frost mage was instead water spec with some dps/healing spells (less damage than a SP but more healing).
    If subtetly was a tanking spec ? (a rogue melting in shadow to avoid damage and using trickery to lure his opponents)
    If survival hunter was meant to help their teammates to survive ? (healing/shielding)
    If the job of demolocks was to summon and control greater demons threatening every of his master's opponents (tanking)

    Adding variety to a game can't be wrong imo. Of course theses change are not realistic, it's too late. But I really would have enjoyed these options.
  1. Kaleredar's Avatar
    The problem with option five... do you know how much time that would take? To develop a healing or tanking role for every single class, create spells, glyphs, and talent trees, AND THEN balance them all to eachother, and then balance them all in PvP? I'd wager that's a bit more than a "few weeks' endeavor."

    And then the loot tables, oh, the loot tables. Welcome in tanking cloth gear and mail gear. Do we have ranged DPS plate? Strength offhand frills? It sucks enough seeing Healadin gear drop as it is.
  1. Ealyssa's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    And then the loot tables, oh, the loot tables. Welcome in tanking cloth gear and mail gear.
    That' absolutly not a problem. It's not because blizzard poorly maintained tanking plate that it should be the same for all class. Druid tank use dps gear, monk tank will too. You can easily translate that for other class.

    I first thaught that it would be massive work. But they have done that kind of work with blood DK actually, creating a tank spec and destroying a dps one in the same time. I don't think that the community would accept that mage/warlock/rogue/hunter sundenly becoming hybrids but it may be possible (i don't say that it will happen).
  1. Ragedaug's Avatar
    Option 4 wasn't put in there as an after thought. It was there because PVP & PVE specs were clearly defined and understood though Vanilla and most of BC. It's mostly that way now, ie you spec Arms, Subtlety, Frost etc, if you want to be serious about PVP...and you don't spec those trees if you are serious about PVE, it's just that Blizzard won't come right out and say it.
  1. Uthur's Avatar
    I want as many DIFFERENT specs as i can get so i can be as different from the next guy as i can,BUT balance is the #1
  1. Furiex's Avatar
    Just revert the game back to Vanilla/BC and make it a hard game that isnt suited for simple mindded casuals. Then youll be as happy as you can! Not this unbalanced game you have today, But for that im along for the ride no matter what you wanna do! Just Please BALANCE THAT PVP SCENE MY GOD WTF

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