Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 5.2 - 10 and 25 Player Raid Loot Changes started by chaud View original post
Comments 369 Comments
  1. Juicebox's Avatar
    If item level upgrades for gear was still in the game at this point, they could've just made 25-man drop items that were upgraded 1/2 already.
    That way the DO get higher ilvl drops, but in the end 10-man raiders will still be able to upgrade it to the same ilvl.
  1. laserguns's Avatar
    This is allright but presented as a new idea when really it's a repurposed version of the old systems. Thunderforged is a replacement for the item upgrades system which replaces a daily grind with RNG.

    For 25 to get popular again they have to a little more.
  1. zwaffelinho's Avatar
    oops misquoted xD
  1. Djouga's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazia View Post

    And yes to all the nay sayers, 10 man is easyer than 25, with a few exeptions like Hagara and, and, and ?
    And half a dozen bosses you forgot to mention, being the clueless average retard you are.
    Stone Guard
    Amber Shaper
    Protectors of the Endless
  1. Loktarok's Avatar
    I know we haven't seen any actual numbers yet. However this does nothing for 25 man as is and does nothing extra for 10 man but that's all susceptible to change. If we only get one drop in 25 man and caster/healers want it let's say that's 10-12 people, now flip it for 10 man 1 bit of thunderforged for their casters and healer that's 4-6 people. No one is actually better off or worse.
    The way they have worded it is as if 25 man are getting a massively great deal out of it compared to 10 man. When it comes down to it, it's the same. Nothing more then each other.
  1. zwaffelinho's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Loktarok View Post
    I know we haven't seen any actual numbers yet. However realistically this does nothing for 25 man.
    nice contradiction there :P
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonPrime View Post
    My guild has been working to rebuild to 25s (We lost so many people to Dragon Suck) We are about 4 recruits shy so we do 2 10 man teams (We used to swap between the 2 groups so no one felt they were on the B team but a fluke happened and now both teams are equal in progression) We keep pushing for 25s but alot of people feel like 25s arent worth it, this might help a bit, its not a complete fix, but its a step in the right direction IMO

    Another good fix would to let 25 man raids drop items that are upgraded half way, this would give incentive to rebuild to 25s and its TOTALLY an option since the 10 man player base can still GET these items for about 750 valor points more.
    PPL are not interested in 25 for many reasons. Things like Frames per second change depending on how many players are taking part. And not all WOW players have best PCs around.

    I've played both 10 and 25 man. Maintaining a solid 10 man team is no easier than 25 mans . Just because 25 mans can split up into 2X10 mans does not tell you the fact about all the 10 mans raids that never get started because 1 person is missing - or not the right classes or the roles are logged on.

    Personally I dont bother doing either now. BLizzard has failed on so many levels with this expansion and these ilvl changes is just one extra feature that makes it even less interesting.
  1. Alayea's Avatar
    Too little, and far too late from Blizzard.
  1. Lilija's Avatar
    One more thing to add:

    I've heard you like RNG. So we'll put more RNG to your RNG.
  1. mercutiouk's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    So in addition to the already average higher item level of 25's (because 25's already drop more gear - duh!) there will be an even more gaping item level difference between an equally progressed 25 than 10. I thought 25's are all about's actually the opposite...

    It already takes much more skill for a 10M to be world first because of the raid comp restrictions and less gear drops, so now it will be even more sweet when Paragon still destroys these 25's again
    "in my highly blinkered view 10m is clearly better...well... just BECAUSE, ok?!"

    So 10m is harder because you have to get 10 skilled people together with the right composition?... ok... so when it requires you get 2.5x the number of skilled people together then it suddenly gets much easier of course. I don't see the logic.
  1. Simon_Moon's Avatar
    Fine, if it's complementary with the item upgrades back in 5.3. And it sort of reeks of that. It seems that they are closing all those loopholes where players could relax from the game without any disadvantage, and not only hardcore raiders have the following mindset:

    No upgrades anymore don't do it.

    It gave casual raid groups the opportunity to extend lookouts without having discussions and finally tackle the final boss or some heroic mode they did not get to.
    It allowed people to ignore valor cap for weeks on end, because those points where only good to sell boe's with plummeting prices.

    MoP overall forces people to think where to invest time, especially if said time is limited. If you feel like having to do everything, say hello to burnout. Not only reputation moves from dailies to raids with 5.3
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilija View Post
    One more thing to add:

    I've heard you like RNG. So we'll put more RNG to your RNG.
    Its a carrot on a stick method. Leads to more issues than it solves long term cause the lucky will progress based on TOTAL luck rather than abilites.
  1. Azrile's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    you obviously don't raid 25man.

    plus your solution would have no impact / benefit since raider would just designate as leader the person that needs loot the most, nullying your brilliant theory that 25 man is only harder for 4 people in the raid.
    You really think it is harder to be a joe blow mage dps with no leadership responsibilities in a 25M than it is to be a raid leader of a 10M? The actual difficulties of 10M and 25M can be argued back and forth, but the devs have stated many times, and anyone can see that the REAL difficulty is with ORGANIZING of 25ms.. not with the actual encounters.

    Of course, the main tank will probably always be marked as a leader, but after that raids are not going to simply reward their lowest ilvl player extra rolls. One or two of the designations might be fudged, but the real leaders will get the designations most of the time... and if they don´t, it will be their choice NOT to get them since they are the leader. The raid leader can say. Ok, the two tanks get the designation, John gets the designation because he coordinated a lot this week etc.
  1. Solidusbr's Avatar
    Separated achievements would be better... Gear is not that big deal.
  1. Loktarok's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by zwaffelinho View Post
    nice contradiction there :P
    Yeah, kinda fixed was stopping my cat from being on fire.
  1. JhanZ's Avatar
    I don't think this is going to work at all. Sure, Thunderforged pieces -might- make farming bosses a little more exciting, but not by much I imagine. Farming a boss is still farming a boss, it's boring.

    And the 25 player bonus is pretty much laughable. After it's all said and done, 25 players will end up with 2-3 item levels higher gear. That's nothing to get excited about either.
  1. cexspa's Avatar
    this could be exciting if it will include weapons as well.
  1. Duster505's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by mercutiouk View Post
    "in my highly blinkered view 10m is clearly better...well... just BECAUSE, ok?!"

    So 10m is harder because you have to get 10 skilled people together with the right composition?... ok... so when it requires you get 2.5x the number of skilled people together then it suddenly gets much easier of course. I don't see the logic.
    If 10 mans were easier than we would have 10 man LFR... You can hide bad or mediocer players in 25 man team. You can not in 10 mans while progressing. Fact.
  1. Madruga's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    Biggest issue i see with this in terms of progression raiding guilds:

    A lot of hardcore progression raiders (myself included) enjoy eventually getting their full BiS set at some point during that tier (sometimes on multiple characters). Once your full BiS is achieved (along with most of your other guildies) it allows you to take a break from raiding and still be ready at the best possible advantage for the next tier of content (every previous piece of gear from a tier matters when going for top world/region/server rankings). With this implementation it is VERY VERY VERY unlikely for even ONE person (minus maybe a tank) to ever reach a full BiS set now. Under the assumption a full BiS set would be your best itemized pieces thunderforged. I feel top guilds are going to feel it necessary to raid every single week (probably multiple 25 mans) from the start of one tier until the start of the other because there is ALWAYS going to be that possible thunderforged upgrade for them off a boss. Which could result in a MASSIVE burn out of top tier players because they don't get the break in between tiers that they are used to.
    Getting full BIS will be nearly impossible now, as it was in 5.0 with item upgrades.

    I say it will require a change of mind, in a sense that you don't really NEED to be full full Elite, you may stop at full heroic.
  1. Spike`'s Avatar
    25 was already better on gear, 25 is not harder, its only harder for officers/raid leader, NO ONE ELSE

    really simple fix and fair was to check for the guild rank (gm and officer) and check how much days there are gm/officers (they have the code to check that)

    but know that the 25 babies (not attacking 25 players, only the ones that cry) cry and cry like they do anything else than being on the raid on time to kill the boss and blizzard has to make them feel hugged

    be on a 25 guild and officer/raid leader and then you have the right to ask more than 10 man

    10 man is already shit on gear rng, want examples?
    -> Empress since release NEVER dropped the healer mace, our priest has the legendary gem getting dust
    -> Sha of Fear NEVER dropped the Conquerer token (priest ,warlock, pala)
    -> never dropped the daggers for our rogue on mogushan

    25 guilds on our server are full of players full tier, full tier off spec, etc etc so dont ask more when you already have all (except officers)

    pathetic solution from blizzard, maybe they should make also a 5% change of a random boss loot when you enter a 25 raid instance ....

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