Item Level Squish, Kor'kron Dark Shaman, 5.4 RPPM Mechanics Change, Blue Posts, Art

The Comma is Coming, Interview with D1 and D2’s Lead Designer, Feedback Needed for a Ladder-Like System, Clarifications on the Console Version

Arena Deck Building Contest, Daily Blue Wrap-up - EU Beta Access, Turn Timer, Pyroblast Buff

Item Level Squish Feedback
Demonstrating why we warn you about taking translated interviews as fact, Ghostcrawler mentioned today that he did not confirm an upcoming item squish, along with answering a few common concerns. You can take part in the ongoing discussion here.
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
mmo-champion says item squish soon confirmed. Please do not regress my character. I worked hard to get him to where he is.
I didn't confirm it. Still we think there are a lot of good reasons to get numbers down to more parsable levels. (Source)
100m, 100k, and 100 are all equally 'parsable'. It's all about formatting.
We describe automobile speed in miles / kilometers per hour and not inches / cms, because big numbers are awkard. (Source)
Exactly. We use KILOmeters per hour. What's the problem with using KILOdamage per second?
That's the mega damage solution, and we're just worried it will look a little silly. You crit for 200 MEGADAMAGE! (Source)

I now have to find 24 other people to do BT/DS/BWL/ICC and follow mechanics just for pets and mog gear? no ty!
I have said several times that item squish would not affect the ability to solo old content. That's not the intent. (Source)

But can you nerf every player without in anyway effecting soloing low level content? Keep everything the same but the numbers?
"If player enters old instance, then buff all their stats." (Source)

Patch 5.4 - Kor'kron Dark Shaman Preview
The Kor'kron Dark Shaman is the 7th encounter in the Siege of Orgrimmar Raid.


Name Points Category
Heroic: Kor'kron Dark Shaman Defeat the Kor'kron Dark Shaman in Siege of Orgrimmar on Heroic difficulty.
10Pandaria Raid
Rescue Raiders Rescue a set of caged prisoners, a group of unwilling combat participants, and Ji Firepaw before defeating the Kor'kron Dark Shaman in Siege of Org...
10Pandaria Raid

Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
  • Spirit Link - Damage dealt is shared between Earthbreaker Haromm and Wavebinder Kardris.
  • Bloodlust - When the Dark Shaman reach 25% health remaining, they will go into a blood frenzy, increasing all damage dealt by 25% and haste by 25%.
  • Darkfang and Bloodclaw - The riding wolves of the Dark Shaman, Darkfang and Bloodclaw will viciously defend their masters.
    • Swipe - Inflicts 300,000 Physical damage to targets in a 8-yard cone in front of the caster.
    • Rend - Viciously rends a player, causing them to bleed for 16,000 Physical damage every 1 sec. for 15 sec. This effect stacks.
  • Totems - The Dark Shaman will drop Totems during the fight that grant them new abilities.
    • Poisonmist Totem - Poisonmist Totem grants Earthbreaker Haromm the Toxic Mist ability, and grants Wavebinder Kardris the Toxic Storm ability. The Dark Shaman drop Poisonmist Totems upon reaching 85% health.
    • Foulstream Totem - Foulstream Totem grants Earthbreaker Haromm the Foul Stream ability, and grants Wavebinder Kardris the Foul Geyser ability. The Dark Shaman drop Foulstream Totems upon reaching 65% health.
    • Ashflare Totem - Ashflare Totem grants Earthbreaker Haromm the Ashen Wall ability, and grants Wavebinder Kardris the Falling Ash ability. The Dark Shaman drop Ashflare Totems upon reaching 45% health.
    • Rusted Iron Totem - Rusted Iron Totem grants Earthbreaker Haromm the Iron Tomb ability, and grants Wavebinder Kardris the Iron Prison ability. The Dark Shaman drop Rusted Iron Totems upon reaching 95% health.
  • Earthbreaker Haromm
    • Froststorm Strike - Strikes a player with frost-lined weapons, inflicting 325,000 Frost damage and causing the player to take 25% additional damage from Froststorm Strike for 30 sec. This effect stacks.
    • Toxic Mist - Injects several players with a toxic mist, inflicting 50,000 Nature damage every 3 sec. for 30 sec and causing growing Toxicity. Due to the internal nature of the corruption, Toxic Mist pierces all immunities. This ability is granted by Poisonmist Totem.
      • Toxicity - Increases Nature damage taken by 10% per stack.
    • Foul Stream - A stream of foul liquid inflicts 220,000 Nature damage to all enemies on a line. This ability is granted by Foulstream Totem.
    • Ashen Wall - Summons a line of stationary Ash Elementals that will attack any nearby enemies. This ability is granted by Ashflare Totem.
    • Iron Tomb - Inflicts 500,000 Physical damage to players within 3 yards and creates an Iron Tomb. This ability is granted by Rusted Iron Totem.
  • Wavebinder Kardris
    • Froststorm Bolt - Fires a bolt of bitter frost, inflicting 450,000 Frost damage.
    • Toxic Storm - Summons a powerful toxic storm that inflicts 300,000 Nature damage to players within 9 yards every 2 sec. and periodically creates Toxic Tornadoes. The storm will move around and lasts for 60 sec. This ability is granted by Poisonmist Totem.
      • Toxic Tornado - Toxic winds inflict 300,000 Nature damage to players within 5 yards every 1 sec. and knock them up.
    • Foul Geyser - Conjure foul water that inflicts 450,000 Nature damage to players within 4 yards every 0.5 sec. for 8 sec. Each splash creates a Foul Slime. This ability is granted by Foulstream Totem.
      • Foul Slime - Foul Slimes are coated in Foulness.
        • Foulness - Inflicts 150,000 Nature damage to players within 3 yards every 1 sec.
    • Falling Ash - Summons a core of smouldering ash that will fall over 30 sec. Inflicts 999,999 Fire damage to players within 17 yards and 160,000 Fire damage to all players on impact. This ability is granted by Ashflare Totem.
    • Iron Prison - Encases the player in a prison of iron that slowly asphyxiates them, inflicting 100% of maximum health as Physical damage after 60 sec. This ability is granted by Rusted Iron Totem.



Raid Testing Schedule - July 31-Aug 1
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
On Wednesday and Thursday, July 31 and August 1, we will continue testing raid encounters in the Siege of Orgrimmar raid. We're moving on to 10-player Heroic testing at this time and finishing up 10-player Normal, and will then move on to Heroic and then 25-player mode as the PTR cycle progresses.

Each encounter should be available at approximately the listed times below for all Public Test Realms.

Wednesday, July 31
Galakras - 10 Player Normal - 10:30 PDT (13:30 EDT, 19:30 CEST)
Garrosh Hellscream - 10 Player Normal - 16:00 PDT (19:00 EDT, 01:00 CEST)

Thursday, August 1
Kor'kron Dark Shaman - 10 Player Heroic - 13:30 PDT (16:30 EDT, 22:30 CEST)
General Nazgrim - 10 Player Heroic - 16:00 PDT (19:00 EDT, 01:00 CEST)

Patch 5.4 - Change to RPPM Mechanics
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
We think the cooldown lineup at the start of PvE encounters has gotten out of hand, and it’s having some rather negative effects on gameplay. Particularly with the number of RPPM procs most raiders have these days, the pull has just become way too important. It’s affecting gearing, it’s punishing classes that can’t capitalize on it as well as others, and it’s not how we’d like raiding to work.

To that end, we’re going to make another change to how RPPM mechanics work on the pull. Starting a raid encounter will set every RPPM proc’s “time since last proc” to 90 seconds. That means the more frequent procs will still be more or less guaranteed to go off, but the rarer (and more powerful) procs will just have a high chance. This should hopefully chill things out a little bit, without changing how you play too dramatically.

Can we clarify what 'rarer' RPPM procs are? We talking the meta-gem here?
We're not changing the actual RPPM proc rates at all, just how much time is "banked" before the pull. The underlying math that determines what the actual chances are isn't changing.

So, here's a couple hypothetical examples using very rough napkin math. I don't remember RPPMs for actual trinkets off the top of my head (and they're not particularly necessary for illustration purposes):

Trinket A has an RPPM that allows it to reach a 100% proc chance if it hasn't fired after 60 seconds. This trinket will have a guaranteed proc on the pull.

Trinket B has an RPPM that allows it to reach a 100% proc chance if it hasn't fired after 100 seconds. It will not be guaranteed to proc immediately, but will proc within the first 10 seconds.

Trinket C has an RPPM that allows it to reach a 100% proc chance after 2 minutes. It will not be guaranteed to proc immediately (regardless of how much time you've spent out of combat), but will proc within the first 30 seconds.

Make sense?

My 502 UVLS doesn't have a guaranteed proc chance 2 minutes in though. Lore's example needs a trinket D, which is only guaranteed in excess of 6 minutes of no procs.
This is true -- some trinkets will now be unlikely to proc immediately (which is the point of the change). However, it should be noted that it's extremely unlikely for any RPPM proc to take until it hits a 100% chance to activate anyway.

Guilds are still going to wait. This change is good, but it's not good enough.
Aside from the fact that most groups wouldn't be ready for another pull within 90 seconds anyway, waiting has no effect whatsoever. As soon as a raid encounter is pulled, the time since last proc for all RPPM mechanics in the raid will be set to exactly 90 seconds. Doesn't matter if it's been 10 seconds or 10 minutes since the last pull.

I do want to say, this is distinctly a nerf to fun. It WAS A LOT of fun to open up full force pot, cloak, enchant, 2xtrinkets, meta, stormlash, + elemental + lava burst. I was hitting 75,000 spellpower
I feel like the "nerf to fun" argument gets overstated quite a bit. We're not nerfing it because it was fun, we're nerfing it because it was breaking the game.

I'm sure a lot of players would find it fun to be able to take down Heroic Lei Shen with a single spell. That doesn't make it good gameplay.

I'm skeptical to the idea that not getting a proc in the initial burst will somehow make these trinkets not worth using. After that first proc on the pull, the time since last proc is 0 anyway. It'll tone back the initial burst, definitely, but I'm not convinced that the entire value of a trinket like Unerring Vision of Lei Shen depends on that first proc.

Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Patch 5.4 Arena Changes
Yeah, i miss the teamnames but the patch is still going to be really good.
We understand that there are some players that will miss the customization and comradeship that came with arena teams. We're looking into ways in which we will be able to retain these particular feelings in arena after these changes occur, but at this time we don't have anything to share in this regard.

I wonder how the ladders will look now. Players with highest ratings etc? I hope they thought this through thoroughly.
The ladders will show individual players and their rankings will be based off of their personal rating. End of season rewards will still be awarded in the same manner as they are now, to the top "X"% of competitors, the percentage of course being different depending on the reward.

So it's all 100% individual? If I play with a team to 2600 and one of my teammates ends on 2560 and cutoff is 2570 he wont get a reward?
Well, while you may play with a few specific players and you consider yourselves a team, you're not actually in a set team. But this is also the case as if he also got the title just for playing with you, because there are no teams in 5.4 you could also feed the title to anyone that you wanted who was just under the cutoff.

Don't encourage wintrading...
I feel that I need to clarify on my last post as there was some misunderstanding of what I meant. I was not promoting win trading, nor was I saying that you will be able to feed your end of season rewards to others. I wanted to point out that if the system worked as Easydragon questioned, then you could feed your rewards to others if they were just under the cut-off because there are no set teams. Don't worry as you won't be able to feed the title to others by playing with them, the rewards are based off of your own personal ratings alone.

I apologize for any confusion my post may have caused, I have now rephrased it to clarify the above points. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Utility and Hunters
So, this isn't solely specific to Hunters, but since it's an issue I see you guys bring up a lot, I want to talk briefly about "utility."

From a top-down perspective, our design philosophy regarding utility goes something like this: everyone brings some sort of benefit to the group, but no one gets an invite based solely on that benefit. We feel that current class mechanics satisfy the first part of that. We're mostly there with the second half, with some exceptions.

Sometimes we just make something too strong to the point that it feels mandatory. That's absolutely true. A current example would be Demonic Gateway, particularly in PvE. It gives a very large benefit in many encounters, and since more Gateways are nearly always a good thing, many raid teams will seek to bring as many Warlocks as they can (though obviously, Warlock DPS has been a factor as well). In that particular case, we're making some changes in 5.4 and, if necessary, may continue to make changes.

The reason I bring that up is that it has the tendency to cast a harsher light than is probably fair on other classes. We feel that, ignoring the extreme outliers like Demonic Gateway, Hunters bring an acceptable amount of utility. Every Hunter has Trueshot Aura and access to an array of buffs and debuffs through their pets (even if not specced Beast Mastery), and abilities like Misdirection and Ice Trap which can be valuable on some encounters. If that's not enough utility to guarantee you a raid invite... then good. We'd rather you get your invite by being a solid raider with good performance.

I'm also slightly confused as to the logic behind some arguments, specifically those along the lines of "our DPS is low, so we need more utility to justify our raid slot." If that's the case, wouldn't you prefer we fix your damage output and/or tone down the overperformers?

I know this doesn't address every concern that's been brought up, and I apologize for that. If and when we have more to share, we will. But I did want to at least shed some light on our thoughts on the "utility" issue overall, for the sake of discussion.

Oh, one thing I can share: we like the idea of removing the focus cost from Dash, so we're going to. That includes Dive and Charge as well.

As has been mentioned in other "utility" threads, part of the problem here is that nobody agrees on what "utility" is. Is the dev definition of the word something you can shed a little light on? (I realize that may raise the "it's a trap!" alarm, so feel free to ignore if you think that would do more harm than good.)

My own working definition for a few years now has been: anything that is beneficial to the group, while in combat, that doesn't pertain directly to my personal performance in my role. Which basically, for a DPS class, would mean anything that doesn't cause me and only me to deal additional damage, and isn't an out-of-combat thing like summoning.
This is probably pretty close to our definition. As you mention, it's the sort of thing that I'd be hesitant to try to define precisely (it's something of a fluid term even internally).

Do you think it's fair that certain abilities (namely Ancient Hysteria and battle rez) are locked to Beast Mastery only? If it's a 25 man situation, probably, but in 10 man you do run the issue of not having either of these. Sometimes that could lead to Hunter's feeling as though they must have Beast Mastery as a spec.
It's something I can bring up again, but we do like these as Beast Mastery perks. Note that, at least in the case of Ancient Hysteria, 5.4 is adding Drums of Rage (a consumable form of Bloodlust/Heroism made by Leatherworkers) that, while not quite as effective as the Beast Mastery buff, should make things at least a little more flexible for 10-mans. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Death Knight (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)
RPPM scaling with Runespeed Mechanics
As an update to this, since we've seen some confusion, Improved Unholy Presence is getting the same treatment as Unholy Presence, meaning it will now grant additional haste, not just additional attack speed and rune regen. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

PTR Testing and You
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
From Zul’Gurub and Ahn’Qiraj onward, we have made extensive use of our Public Test Realms in order to help find bugs and improve the tuning of our raid content. We have an extensive team of Quality Assurance testers and an internal raid group, but it’s impossible to replicate the sheer breadth of information we get from having hundreds of real raid groups attempting diverse strategies as they experience encounters for the first time. We learn a tremendous amount from that testing, both in the form of written feedback on these forums, which is carefully read by every encounter designer, and from spectating raids and observing how they fare.

Now, that’s what we get out of the PTR. Speaking pragmatically, we understand that not everyone's motivation in logging on to the PTR is to give us feedback. They want to check out the new content firsthand, see what’s coming to the live servers in a few weeks or months, and, in the case of raiding, get some competitive edge that will help them clear the content faster on the live servers when the patch is released. That’s fine. We thoroughly appreciate everyone who takes the time to give measured feedback, or goes out of their way to methodically test new features and report bugs they find. But at the end of the day, we’d rather have a packed PTR with a small percentage giving direct feedback, than a nearly-empty PTR where everyone gives it. Bugs that require very specific conditions are much more likely to occur with thousands of testers than with hundreds, and it’s clearly beneficial to everyone for us to find and fix those issues before they affect millions in a live environment.

When it comes to raid testing in particular, there’s a symbiotic relationship: The bleeding-edge guild that intentionally wipes to a boss at 5% so they can set up their boss addons, try out unusual strategies, and practice execution is there for competitive reasons. But we gain information even just from silently observing that will help us make our encounters better, and fundamentally, that is the purpose of raid testing on PTR. Our raid testing times are scheduled to coincide with our core work hours, so that designers can observe as much of the testing as possible, with the exception of LFR and Flexible tests which require more open-ended scheduling given their nature and target audience (and even then, if you were doing a PTR Flexible raid this past weekend, odds are decent that I or another developer was spying on your group – creepy, I know). When it comes to Heroic testing, we try to keep the testing windows as brief as possible, in order to minimize the impact of PTR testing on the progression “race.”

But that symbiotic relationship requires that we be around in some capacity to observe. Players who find a way to access bosses (especially Heroic bosses) that aren’t currently being tested should let us know, so we can correct the problem. We discovered that over the weekend a progression raid group accessed the Siege of Orgrimmar raid and spent hours on a Heroic boss in the middle of the night, after copying fresh characters with generic names, presumably with the hope of going unnoticed. Those actions go against the intent of the PTR, the spirit of fair play, and were clearly intended to go against our wishes for specific boss testing periods. PTR testing is a privilege, and we reserve the right to revoke PTR access from those who have shown an intent to abuse it.

If you come across an oversight in our testing protocols, or a serious, abusable bug or exploit in the course of your testing of a boss encounter on PTR, and you want to let us know without alerting everyone, please note that we can read edited or deleted forum posts. (On the live servers, please use the in-game bug reporting interface.) Otherwise, carry on with the fantastic feedback that we’ve been receiving about all facets of 5.4 content thus far, and we look forward to seeing you on the Public Test Realm!

Blizzard Art Update
Blizzard added five pieces to the World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria Art gallery.

This article was originally published in forum thread: Item Level Squish, Kor'kron Dark Shaman, 5.4 RPPM Mechanics Change, Blue Posts, Art started by chaud View original post
Published on 2013-07-31 07:10 AM
105 Comments
Comments 105 Comments
  1. Shudder's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenjen View Post
    warcraft is just one big set of complex calculations involving numbers. You saying that is tantamount to saying who gives a shit about DNA in biology or physics in flying aircraft.

    having 5 digits worth of stats on gear is ludicrous. things may be fine now but by the next expansion we'll really be hitting ridiculous numbers



    Actually its the vocal minority thats opposing this. Blizz, bereft of people who want it, have wished to do an item squish because of what they're seeing when designing dps and stats. the feedback from calculations and the appearance of gear.

    This isnt a nerf. The Ratio's are the goddamn same. instead of saying we're gonna travel 328,084 feet, we're gonna say we're traveling 100km. instead of 97630 yen, we're saying we have 1000 dollars. Its worth the damn same.

    It's gonna be cumbersome as hell comparing blue items with stats that have 5 frikkin digits each. the numbers we throw out will just be meaningless 7 digit long bunches.

    It's not a problem in MoP, but if the next expac follows the same jump like the previous expacs, it will reach a point where the numbers are burying us or unintuitive at a glance.

    you hit a mob for 1million damage and take out 10% of its health. after the squish you hit a mob for 6000 and take away 10% of its health.

    Massive numbers inflation is never a good thing to develop and base judgements on for any sort of system.
    Nope sorry, you are NOT the majority. You can pretend in make believe land all you want. The majority do not post on these forums. The majority do not post on the bnet forums or read dev tweets. The majority are casual players. The kind that when they log in and find all the talent trees gone, replaced with 5 stupid choices freak the fuck out and quit. The majority will not like the item squish, mark my words. I'll even pm you this very post when they implement it and you see the rage that happens afterword. Reminding you, that yes you are the minority. The majority of the playerbase despises change. Even blizzard has admitted the biggest reason people give when quitting is, "too many changes".
  1. Geodew's Avatar
    Who cares how the item squish FEELS. More importantly, it'll be easier on everyone's CPU to calculate arithmetic with lower numbers, making running add-ons like Recount and Skada much less taxing on your computer, probably significantly improving the performance of mid-grade machines in LFRs and 25mans, and ESPECIALLY world bosses. Anyone else remember freezing, 0 fps for a couple seconds, on your first couple Sha of Anger or Galleon pulls ever? Happened to lots of guildies of mine, and with my high-end machine I even got a couple freezes. People had to disable Recount until they optimized their code better.
  1. Shudder's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    Who cares how the item squish FEELS. More importantly, it'll be easier on everyone's CPU to calculate arithmetic with lower numbers, making running add-ons like Recount and Skada much less taxing on your computer, probably significantly improving the performance of mid-grade machines in LFRs and 25mans, and ESPECIALLY world bosses. Anyone else remember freezing, 0 fps for a couple seconds, on your first couple Sha of Anger or Galleon pulls ever? Happened to lots of guildies of mine, and with my high-end machine I even got a couple freezes. People had to disable Recount until they optimized their code better.
    Um, dps numbers isn't the reason that is happening. It's server load.
  1. Unholyground's Avatar
    The item squish will be sweet I think, the speed of killing shit wont change ever. I don't know what people could possibly worry about. I remember when the biggest crit you could do was like 3800 lmao.
  1. tyrindor's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    Who cares how the item squish FEELS. More importantly, it'll be easier on everyone's CPU to calculate arithmetic with lower numbers, making running add-ons like Recount and Skada much less taxing on your computer, probably significantly improving the performance of mid-grade machines in LFRs and 25mans, and ESPECIALLY world bosses. Anyone else remember freezing, 0 fps for a couple seconds, on your first couple Sha of Anger or Galleon pulls ever? Happened to lots of guildies of mine, and with my high-end machine I even got a couple freezes. People had to disable Recount until they optimized their code better.
    Who cares how the game feels? Let's just add a difficulty setting in the corner of your game where you can toggle a difficulty out in the world. Lets have it even affect PVP and people on easy will have a handicap in BGs/Arenas. I mean who cares if it doesn't feel right?

    Seriously, my point is... how a game FEELS is everything. The item squish makes it feel like we're going back to classic. I raided in classic, I don't want to feel like that again i've already been there done that. Your average casual gamer is going to log in the game, see the squished numbers and quit the game. It's too big of a change, and it feels too weird. At one point last year, GC even admitted their own employees did not like the number squish and that's why it didn't happen for MoP! Even if they do the item squish correctly, and all content is still perfectly scaled, it will still feel like a huge nerf and be awkward.

    As for the calculations, your exaggerating. Most of your FPS issues or lockups are due to other things, the number calculations are a tiny part of why your FPS is lower. If your getting complete lockups, it's your computer. My computer has never experienced this, and even on Ultra my FPS is fine during world bosses and 25mans. Turn your settings down, or stop playing on a potato expecting to max the game out. Your FPS and lockups are most likely due to your settings being too high, not the numbers being too big.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shudder View Post
    Nope sorry, you are NOT the majority. You can pretend in make believe land all you want. The majority do not post on these forums. The majority do not post on the bnet forums or read dev tweets. The majority are casual players. The kind that when they log in and find all the talent trees gone, replaced with 5 stupid choices freak the fuck out and quit. The majority will not like the item squish, mark my words. I'll even pm you this very post when they implement it and you see the rage that happens afterword. Reminding you, that yes you are the minority. The majority of the playerbase despises change. Even blizzard has admitted the biggest reason people give when quitting is, "too many changes".
    Exactly, agree 100%. This change will cause a massive drop in subs even if it is correctly implemented. Judging by GC's recent tweets, they will not even be correctly implementing it either. They will take the lazy way and just add buffs to characters in old raids so they can still solo. It all feels so fake, we'll end up doing 1M DPS in Molten Core.. then go outside and do 5K DPS. I would wager that this would be the single biggest mistake Blizzard is debating on doing. It completely changes the feel of the game, for the worse.

    If people wanted all these dynamic stat changes and scaling, they'd be playing a game like GW2. The main reason I stopped playing GW2 was because I felt like nothing mattered. No matter what you are scaled and stat capped, it all felt so fake to me.
  1. grandevil's Avatar
    Why do people cry over the "squish" all they are talking about changing is arbitrary numbers. Everything will still function the same. Any change will be across the board.
  1. mmoc40d858c719's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by grandevil View Post
    Why do people cry over the "squish" all they are talking about changing is arbitrary numbers. Everything will still function the same. Any change will be across the board.
    Because those people understand math. After item squish level appropriate content will be just the same like it is currently. Overleveling group content will be different. Why? Let me explain.

    The reason we need the item squish is because exponential stat increase which causes us to have huge power surges between expansions. The reason we can solo old raid content is because we have these exponential power surges. The item squish will remove them so that instead of exponential we will have linear increase.

    What this means is that 40 lvl 60 players against ragnaros after the squish will be the same as 40 lvl 60 players against ragnaros now. This is because numbers from the both sides are squashed. As the exponential growth is removed 1 lvl 90 after the squish it will be far more worse than what it is now. Blizzard knows this and that's why GC suggested a buff for high lvl players inside old raids. That is very artificial and problematic way to work it since the buff would have to be different for people with different levels or otherwise you would get weird results.

    Also outdoor pvp issues are something I haven't seen them talk about at all. Currently 2 lvl 85 players would get their asses handed to them by a single lvl 90. After the squish it could go the other way. It's all about relative power. People are thinking that item squish will keep the ratios but it won't. Ratios will only be the same when you are doing appropriate content for your level.
  1. Windytusks's Avatar
    Why don't all the people who advocate for the item squish just go play Rift if they want to go back to having 55,000 HP and dealing craptastic damage? /confused
  1. Unholyground's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichigo86 View Post
    Because those people understand math. After item squish level appropriate content will be just the same like it is currently. Overleveling group content will be different. Why? Let me explain.

    The reason we need the item squish is because exponential stat increase which causes us to have huge power surges between expansions. The reason we can solo old raid content is because we have these exponential power surges. The item squish will remove them so that instead of exponential we will have linear increase.

    What this means is that 40 lvl 60 players against ragnaros after the squish will be the same as 40 lvl 60 players against ragnaros now. This is because numbers from the both sides are squashed. As the exponential growth is removed 1 lvl 90 after the squish it will be far more worse than what it is now. Blizzard knows this and that's why GC suggested a buff for high lvl players inside old raids. That is very artificial and problematic way to work it since the buff would have to be different for people with different levels or otherwise you would get weird results.

    Also outdoor pvp issues are something I haven't seen them talk about at all. Currently 2 lvl 85 players would get their asses handed to them by a single lvl 90. After the squish it could go the other way. It's all about relative power. People are thinking that item squish will keep the ratios but it won't. Ratios will only be the same when you are doing appropriate content for your level.
    No everything can be scaled easily, your not thinking big picture. All the ratios can be brought closer together with the same exponential grow. They just have to stop using full percentages with their scaling.
  1. MrKnubbles's Avatar
    I really hope this item squish goes though. I'm sick of seeing such insanely high stats on gear.
  1. Windytusks's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    I really hope this item squish goes though. I'm sick of seeing such insanely high stats on gear.
    Serious question: Why does this bother you? Specifically, why are you sick of ... numbers?
  1. Unholyground's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Layuth View Post
    "We're not nerfing it because it was fun, we're nerfing it because it was breaking the game."

    The thing that is breaking this game is piss poor development that is allowing this to happen.
    You have to realize they are working with a 12 year old game engine that they cannot rebuild because it would alienate a lot of the player base that still use low end pc's, so the item crunch is the only way.
  1. mmoc65ba707d63's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichigo86 View Post
    Because those people understand math. After item squish level appropriate content will be just the same like it is currently. Overleveling group content will be different. Why? Let me explain.

    The reason we need the item squish is because exponential stat increase which causes us to have huge power surges between expansions. The reason we can solo old raid content is because we have these exponential power surges. The item squish will remove them so that instead of exponential we will have linear increase.
    Looks like YOU don't understand maths. Scaling down, with a multiplier, can't transform an exponential function into a linear one.
  1. Adalace's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by moveth View Post
    Changes to the RPPM mechanics are TERRIBLE.
    I disagree, I think they are great.
  1. tyrindor's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    No everything can be scaled easily, your not thinking big picture. All the ratios can be brought closer together with the same exponential grow. They just have to stop using full percentages with their scaling.
    Yes, this is true but it would require a lot of man hours and lot of tweaking to get it right. It's not as simple as running a % based number reduction across the game like many people seem to think. If you read the tweets by GC, he already said how they plan on doing it. They are just going to give buffs to higher level people in old raids, which is a rather terrible concept in my eyes. https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...53330179534850

    They keep making the game feel faker and faker, there's no surprise they keep losing subs. I don't want my character to be stronger in some areas, than weaker in others. This change will be the biggest sub loss for them, I am certain. They just can't seem to grasp that their main player base, casuals, do not want major changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    You have to realize they are working with a 12 year old game engine that they cannot rebuild because it would alienate a lot of the player base that still use low end pc's, so the item crunch is the only way.
    What about the players that have been playing since launch, and keep playing for bigger numbers and the sense of getting stronger. A large chunk of the player base thinks this way and plays for personal character development. Now they go from doing big numbers to tiny numbers, and feel weaker. You cannot tell me that if they did something like this in Diablo 3 that the entire player base wouldn't freak out. Lots of players use numbers as a sense of strength, by lower these you piss off a lot of the fanbase.

    There is nothing stopping people from upgrading their low end PCs. It's in the terms that the games requirements will raise overtime and it is up to the user to upgrade their computer. Big numbers play a very small part in the overall performance of the game, and would only make a large difference on people with very cheap and very old computers. Computers that should of been upgraded years ago. Why should the entire playerbase have to deal with a number squish because John wants to play on his $150 e-machine that he bought 8 years ago?

    The argument goes both ways, by doing the number squish you will piss off a lot of people that have the "bigger numbers" mentality. This is a LARGE chunk of the player base. By not doing the number squish, you piss off the people who refuse to upgrade their incredibly out dated systems, or want to play on higher settings than they should be. The people who have the argument "I'm tired of seeing giant numbers" can be resolved with addons or a future patch that condenses numbers into better formatting, such as 100K, 100M, 100B, etc.
  1. MrKnubbles's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Windytusks View Post
    Serious question: Why does this bother you? Specifically, why are you sick of ... numbers?
    Transitioning between expansions isn't smooth at all. As you level through one expansion, you keep getting slight upgrades. As soon as you hit a new expansion, the numbers increase dramatically. You get such a huge increase in power for no reason. We have gear with 2000 Stamina on it now. There is no reason why it can't be scaled back to say, 200. Yes, you would see your damage decrease but the amount of time it takes to kill enemies wouldn't be any greater because the enemies would be scaled back as well. I just think it would really help bring the game in line regarding gear scaling in the future.
  1. tyrindor's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    Transitioning between expansions isn't smooth at all. As you level through one expansion, you keep getting slight upgrades. As soon as you hit a new expansion, the numbers increase dramatically. You get such a huge increase in power for no reason. We have gear with 2000 Stamina on it now. There is no reason why it can't be scaled back to say, 200. Yes, you would see your damage decrease but the amount of time it takes to kill enemies wouldn't be any greater because the enemies would be scaled back as well. I just think it would really help bring the game in line regarding gear scaling in the future.
    You didn't really answer his question though, why exactly does this bother you? It makes the game feel rewarding. If people are raiding 8-16 hours/week, or even more, they want to feel rewarded. That's why we see large gear upgrades in raids over the course of an expansion, and also why new characters going into a new expansion see massive upgrades. I *love* getting to a new expansion on alts and seeing these massive upgrades, it makes leveling more fun and rewarding.

    Why would people want to spend 8-16 hours a week raiding for minor stat upgrades that don't really make all that big of a difference? The gear gaps are there because they are a large part of the game being fun, at the current ilvl, if we were only getting +10 main stat upgrades per piece of gear, it wouldn't even be noticeable with a full set of new tier gear. There would be no real reason to put tons of effort into raiding for most people, and many people would quit because their basically "gear capped" already. There are other MMOs out there, like GW2, that allow you to spend hours and hours doing dungeons and raids for virtually no stat difference in gear. The #1 complaint I see on GW2's forums is the fact there is nothing to do because there's no gear worth getting.
  1. Aurabolt's Avatar
    Or here's a better tip Chaud (RE: Item Level Squish):

    DON'T post that kind of info. You only just posted the translation the other day and people were quick to run to GC with it like it was fact. No it wasn't your fault they interpreted that way but I can't help but wonder if Blizz might take the opportunity to discredit MMO-C because it datamines the game (which they've openly said for years they don't like). Yeah they've accepted people will do it weather they tell them not to or not but since MMO-C is such a reputable site...you see where I'm going with this?

    You warned the squish wasn't fact. You even said the translation might not be precise. Even so, clearly not everyone listened and now GC's in damage control. I would advise against posting info like that again unless you're sure it's reliable.
  1. Unholyground's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    Yes, this is true but it would require a lot of man hours and lot of tweaking to get it right. It's not as simple as running a % based number reduction across the game like many people seem to think. If you read the tweets by GC, he already said how they plan on doing it. They are just going to give buffs to higher level people in old raids, which is a rather terrible concept in my eyes. https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...53330179534850

    They keep making the game feel faker and faker, there's no surprise they keep losing subs. I don't want my character to be stronger in some areas, than weaker in others. This change will be the biggest sub loss for them, I am certain. They just can't seem to grasp that their main player base, casuals, do not want major changes.



    What about the players that have been playing since launch, and keep playing for bigger numbers and the sense of getting stronger. A large chunk of the player base thinks this way and plays for personal character development. Now they go from doing big numbers to tiny numbers, and feel weaker. You cannot tell me that if they did something like this in Diablo 3 that the entire player base wouldn't freak out. Lots of players use numbers as a sense of strength, by lower these you piss off a lot of the fanbase.

    There is nothing stopping people from upgrading their low end PCs. It's in the terms that the games requirements will raise overtime and it is up to the user to upgrade their computer. Big numbers play a very small part in the overall performance of the game, and would only make a large difference on people with very cheap and very old computers. Computers that should of been upgraded years ago. Why should the entire playerbase have to deal with a number squish because John wants to play on his $150 e-machine that he bought 8 years ago?

    The argument goes both ways, by doing the number squish you will piss off a lot of people that have the "bigger numbers" mentality. This is a LARGE chunk of the player base. By not doing the number squish, you piss off the people who refuse to upgrade their incredibly out dated systems, or want to play on higher settings than they should be. The people who have the argument "I'm tired of seeing giant numbers" can be resolved with addons or a future patch that condenses numbers into better formatting, such as 100K, 100M, 100B, etc.
    That is true, if they use smarter math in the back end the front end can easily display it with little to no change in computing power. I personally am indifferent. I don't care what they do in the end, because my character is still going to be the same character I love and enjoy. I just hope they get the damn new Race models done and in the game before I die lol.
  1. mmoc40d858c719's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    No everything can be scaled easily, your not thinking big picture. All the ratios can be brought closer together with the same exponential grow. They just have to stop using full percentages with their scaling.
    "can" is a powerful word. They surely can but it would make the game completely ridiculous at low levels and we would get the same problem after few more expansions. That's also one of the reasons they have to get rid of exponentiality. Currently lvl 1 crits for ~50, a lvl 90 with bis gear and raidbuffs are critting like 500k-1m+ depending on loads of things. Even if they made lvl1 base to 1 damage and crit 2 it would still get rather high on next expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by noskillz View Post
    Looks like YOU don't understand maths. Scaling down, with a multiplier, can't transform an exponential function into a linear one.
    I understand math just fine. Someone just needs to practise on reading. People keep on using "scale" when they are NOT going to scale it down. Item squish is not about dividing everything with xx multiplier. They are getting rid the exponentiality which isn't done by dividing. I would suggest reading the original thread http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...29-of-Pandaria again. Just to quote using Blizzards own example pictures.

    It's not a dividing downscale. GC also said they have tried downscaling and it felt really wrong. That's why giving buffs is the only way to "fix" raid soloing. It doesn't fix a plethora of other problems. There's no absolute right way to fix it or they would have done it already. No matter what it will be artificial and feel really awkward and the game will suffer because of it. As a programmer I do understand the need but what I'm saying is that it IS a serious problem that can't be easily solved.
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