Flex Item Levels, January 14 Hotfixes, Blue Posts, HS Beta - Opt-In Accounts Flagged

There was a saying but this is the WoW version, a high item level does not make a good player.. Pretty much folks wanting to be able to steamroll Flexes like they do in dungeons.. That or the player is just a lazy bum probably don't even have the achievement themselves and only asking thus so they can be carried by everyone else..

As long as there is no easy way to know the players skill, players will keep asking for those ridiculous gear scores.
Its time Blizzard put in a skill meter into the game, this WotLK babying has to stop.

Originally Posted by snakeeyesma81

I find it hard to believe that there's a portion of the playerbase AGAINST a customer loyalty program. It's something i've wanted ever since i saw Rift's several years ago....and honestly i think it's about time...

It's the entitled players who think they deserve everything, Like I would love a loyalty system myself.

On the subject of a loyalty program... They said a while ago they didn't continue with the annual pass because people wouldn't want the Diablo expansion. Umm... I would! I'd sub to WoW for a year if it meant getting the expansion for free. Diablo 3 was $59.99, the expansion is $39.99 and the CE Digital is what, $49.99? I don't care about a $10 difference, give annual pass holders the digital CE. But since they obviously think they know what people want (and clearly don't), they can keep arguing about it in-house.

My guild is asking 510+ for the first 2 parts and 525+ for 3rd&4th parts for guild members only. And we usually don't have problems

When I do flex I always look for people 540+. I want a quick and easy run, and that is the best way to make it. You may be a self proclaimed god of your class, but there is no way for me to know that. And if you don't like the high requirements for flexs make your own...

The closer the average iLvl of the raid is to the Blizzard recommendation, the better chance you have for loot. Fixed. If you run with a guild group you would get a little bit more loot in the beginning, and little bit less in the end, the average gearing time should stay the same as now, but if you would make random groups it would be beneficial to take some lower iLvl players with you to boost your chance to get loot.

No matter what you do with WoD Flex, it will be destroyed within weeks by the community. Seeming as LFR will be "fixed" and become the tourist mode that it should be "to see the content, but not be handed out epics", then the chidlren that play this game just for gear will move onto dominate Flexi. You make it too hard, people will cry. You make it too easy, it becomes Cata/MOP's LFR.

Originally Posted by vexew

Its time Blizzard put in a skill meter into the game, this WotLK babying has to stop.

Is that not the Proving Grounds?

I see plenty of 530 and below groups in OQ on a daily basis so I'm afraid I have to call bs flag on the complaints about every group being too high. The groups are there. BUT I'll freely admit I avoid them. On the very rare occasion I run flex it's just a valor farm to finish up my cap. So yea I join the 550+ groups on my main. The ppl I join with are usually in the same boat. Valor farm =/= gear run.

If you want to run at the 530-540 range go in a guild group or create your own. I do it when I run an alt , it's not difficult. But don't chastise ppl like me for wanting a quick run when were literally just farming some quick valor or maybe mount achieves.

The lowest ilvl in my group is like 564 so no if it's our main group we aren't going to carry unless it's a guildie or you can somehow prove you won't waste our time. However we run 5-6 successful normal alt runs a week in which they all make it to at least siege, most to Garrosh. Flex runs we host yes we ask for 540 but if you have ahead of the curve and you're just gearing an alt were more likely to carry. This isn't elitism it's not wanting to waste time. Nearly every time we make an exception to our limits we end up wanting to strangle the pug bc they do something stupid like run off to the side on galaktras instead of behind the group with the fireball. And that's bc they swear they know the fights instead of just admitting they needed explanation. (Which we are perfectly fine giving, but after you wipe or nearly wipe the raid is too late to ask)

So I'm sorry if some people are being left out in the cold but attitude is a big part of the issue. I know for a fact I am in one of the most active raiding guilds on my very busy server. The shear amount of runs my RL orchestrates weekly and carries people through is insane. But if you are dishonest about your actual experience were gonna notice. And that usually means you won't be coming with us again. If you're new admit it. You might be surprised to see there are guilds like mine who will accommodate newer ppl. Just don't expect to get thrown in the heroic groups and handed all the loot.

Originally Posted by ejpaints

I see plenty of 530 and below groups in OQ on a daily basis so I'm afraid I have to call bs flag on the complaints about every group being too high. The groups are there. BUT I'll freely admit I avoid them. On the very rare occasion I run flex it's just a valor farm to finish up my cap. So yea I join the 550+ groups on my main. The ppl I join with are usually in the same boat. Valor farm =/= gear run.

If you want to run at the 530-540 range go in a guild group or create your own. I do it when I run an alt , it's not difficult. But don't chastise ppl like me for wanting a quick run when were literally just farming some quick valor or maybe mount achieves.

The lowest ilvl in my group is like 564 so no if it's our main group we aren't going to carry unless it's a guildie or you can somehow prove you won't waste our time. However we run 5-6 successful normal alt runs a week in which they all make it to at least siege, most to Garrosh. Flex runs we host yes we ask for 540 but if you have ahead of the curve and you're just gearing an alt were more likely to carry. This isn't elitism it's not wanting to waste time. Nearly every time we make an exception to our limits we end up wanting to strangle the pug bc they do something stupid like run off to the side on galaktras instead of behind the group with the fireball. And that's bc they swear they know the fights instead of just admitting they needed explanation. (Which we are perfectly fine giving, but after you wipe or nearly wipe the raid is too late to ask)

So I'm sorry if some people are being left out in the cold but attitude is a big part of the issue. I know for a fact I am in one of the most active raiding guilds on my very busy server. The shear amount of runs my RL orchestrates weekly and carries people through is insane. But if you are dishonest about your actual experience were gonna notice. And that usually means you won't be coming with us again. If you're new admit it. You might be surprised to see there are guilds like mine who will accommodate newer ppl. Just don't expect to get thrown in the heroic groups and handed all the loot.

I think this is an issue where the exception is not the rule. Your group may be listing reasonable requirements, but many spamming trade on servers like illidan asking for 550-560 item level are not guild groups. This has been going on for a long time, all the way back to ICC. The general player base is expecting non guild raiders to create their own group with high requirements in order to be carried to the ahead of the curve achievement by people who already have it. When enough people follow that trend strictly you end up in a situation where lots of piss poor quality PUGs are formed with players have an elitist attitude while at the same time being anywhere from terrible to nothing special at their class.

Couple that with the widely accepted idea that over 50% of pug raids lose players after one wipe, and you have a perfect storm of exclusionary players behaving irrationally, making it tedious for players who quit for even one tier to consider a casual non-LFR raid. That all goes without mentioning that people who were "born in and molded by" this environment legitimately think this is the way it should always work and that it can't possibly work any other way.

It leaves a bad taste in people's mouths just by considering the foray.

What they need to do for WoD is to change how the legendary quests work for alts. If one of your characters has got the Legendary, then for the alts it should be easier to do the same quest line. By half on everything, half the valor, half the items you need to collect...I mean ffs if u have collected 20 sigils and then another 20 later of similar nature (ToT) then that's 40, with an alt it's 80 and many of us have several alts.. For me, it would take several hundred sigils... so that is fookd up with this current insane grind...

I generally kill Garrosh on flex a few times a week. Most groups are more than happy to have fuuly raid geared toons like my lock in their group. I just wait in oque looking for Garrosh groups. I'm not there for progression. The only reason many of us bother is for the heirloom weapons.

Originally Posted by pankind

I think this is an issue where the exception is not the rule. Your group may be listing reasonable requirements, but many spamming trade on servers like illidan asking for 550-560 item level are not guild groups. This has been going on for a long time, all the way back to ICC. The general player base is expecting non guild raiders to create their own group with high requirements in order to be carried to the ahead of the curve achievement by people who already have it. When enough people follow that trend strictly you end up in a situation where lots of piss poor quality PUGs are formed with players have an elitist attitude while at the same time being anywhere from terrible to nothing special at their class.

Couple that with the widely accepted idea that over 50% of pug raids lose players after one wipe, and you have a perfect storm of exclusionary players behaving irrationally, making it tedious for players who quit for even one tier to consider a casual non-LFR raid. That all goes without mentioning that people who were "born in and molded by" this environment legitimately think this is the way it should always work and that it can't possibly work any other way.

It leaves a bad taste in people's mouths just by considering the foray.

You kind of answered a large part of the problem in your reply though. Trade chat isn't the only avenue to find a group. OpenRaid and Oqueue are there and can easily be taken advantage of. I almost never acknowledge trade chat groups these days b/c of all the reasons you listed. The only way to fix the issue is to make them keep looking. More reasonable groups are being formed on the two avenues I suggested, people just need to take more advantage of them. Most experienced players can agree that trade chat in general is a cesspool. Avoiding it completely has had very little effect on my gameplay, and what effect it has had has all been positive.

On my server you need 525 before anyone will take you flex, the achievement is almost mandatory but we do have a thread up on EU forums atm which is basically if you have 530+ gemmed, enchanted and forged correctly; they'll take you without it. Probably the best course of taking initiative I have seen from a player in a long time. I think they got the first two wings down on their first run (using TS) which is incredible for a forum group where 90% of the raid have never been in SoO (in fact the RL prioritizing those without the achievement)

Originally Posted by Gruffertus

Is that not the Proving Grounds?

Proving Grounds are meaningless. Yes, it scales all your gear down to 463 but the DPS "mechanics" in them favor specific classes and also have very little in common with mechanics one would actually see while raiding. The healing ones are a complete travesty because the NPCs are complete and utter idiots. You can do everything right and still fail because of bad AI.

It should be very telling that there are threads on guide sites telling people how to optimize, specifically, for Proving Grounds. Often those "optimizations" run contrary to how someone would be optimized for group/raid content. The only redeeming function of Proving Grounds is the fact that, at the lowest level, it's a tutorial of sorts. For example, bronze level DPS teaches the basics of priority targeting, something that is completely glossed over in the current mad dash from 1-90.

Originally Posted by Summerdrake

What they need to do for WoD is to change how the legendary quests work for alts. If one of your characters has got the Legendary, then for the alts it should be easier to do the same quest line.

No. The cloak was never intended to be had by each and every one of your alts. This is evident in the fact that only one character with the cloak is required for ALL characters on the account to be able to participate in Ordos kills. The line has already been nerfed to take almost half the amount of time as it originally did. As I've said repeatedly on the official forums, be thankful they gave everyone the ability to get a legendary beyond the typical 1-2% legendary that usually happens. If you want it for alts, the line is there, nerfed, and perfectly reasonable. Considering we know we still have several months of this patch for PVE, you have ample time to finish.

I will stick with LFR, fast, fun, and can be a great challenge at times as you cope with 24 others running amok.

Having not "raided" since Wrath LFR was fun and reminded me of the old days of raiding, as in, all I am doing is beating a scripted event. The real challenge is getting ten or more people to dance in sequence. LFR just means one or two judges look away occasionally :P

Blizzard has and will likely continue to say that Flex was never meant for pugs. And that's fine. They shouldn't give even a whiff of credibility to the idea that they're somehow surprised at it being used for that. There's really no solution for pugs in that sense. They are what they are and if you can't join one you can start your own if you're brave enough.

I hate to say it but flex killed raiding for me. Cant get in any LFR unless i wait 2 hours for one half done, and the people running flex want me to be Heroic gears in the same raid Im trying flex??? The only way i could raid anymore is if I can find 10 real life friends to re-sub the game and since I cant find any willing to. Game is dead for me

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Originally Posted by ZeroWashu

I will stick with LFR, fast, fun, and can be a great challenge at times as you cope with 24 others running amok.

Having not "raided" since Wrath LFR was fun and reminded me of the old days of raiding, as in, all I am doing is beating a scripted event. The real challenge is getting ten or more people to dance in sequence. LFR just means one or two judges look away occasionally :P

Fast? I hope you mean the raid itself once you get past the huge Q.