Zero Empathy Beats GR 71, Sunwuko Zodiac Monk, John Yang Paragon 800

Popular Decks of the Week, Mekkatorque's Workshop: Zul'Gurub Wrap-Up + Cardback

Rotation for May 26, 2015, Upcoming Shop Sales

Patch 6.2 - Updated Demon Models
Patch 6.2 finally updates many of the old demon models. Warlocks only use the new Doomguard model and the rest of their pets are still the old demon models.

Flying Feedback
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
"Didn't listen" doesn't = "didn't implement." Designing is a group activity, what I want may not matter in the end, but I read your post. (Muffinus)
I think it's a slight misnomer and most are looking for discussion. Only implementing and saying why feels a bit dismissive.
Understood. While I can't offer much for discussion, hopefully it's a small comfort that at least their posts are read/voices heard. (Muffinus)

Mr. Feasel, ask yourself why you disagree that much with many of your players. Do you still think you adress them?
I may not disagree with you at all. I don't make all of the decisions (Muffinus)

Thanks again for the continued feedback. Still here, still listening, (Muffinus)
"Thanks for the feedback" is becoming the wowdev version of "umadbro"
If I didn't want people to continue providing feedback, I wouldn't have posted anything at all (Muffinus)
feedback is useful with two-sided communication, and you (as a team) are still too quiet
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think it's important to note that I'm reading all of the responses. (Muffinus)
Would be nice to get the actual reasoning behind decisions instead of snark. A good start is "I'll mention it next meeting."
I never take a piece of feedback lightly. Every Voice Matters. However, I can't talk about internal goings-on. Apologies. (Muffinus)
Sometimes seeing "I hear everything" feels impersonal. Maybe see if you can get a public facing response to some "no" decisions?)
Usually the next product or patch addresses issues, we live in interesting times with instant communication. (Muffinus)

If you're going to announce a major feature being removed indefinitely, an interview isn't the place. Perhaps the main website?
Curious why you feel that way. An interview on a major press site will likely be seen by more players. (CM_Lore)

you realize most of the post has turned into just flaming you guys because months of real feedback was ignored right?
There is a massive difference between "ignored" and "disagreed with." (CM_Lore)

Blue Posts
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Selfie Contest Confusion
Hello! Yes we've been working on this for the last few hours after running into an issue with the page not resetting people's entries for the new week. As a solution we're going to be creating a new weekly entry page for each week's challenge that will be specifically for that week. When a new week is available it'll be a new page. To help make that easy for you we're going to constantly update the URL we've been using to always point to the current week's entry page:

If you did clear your browser and already entered don't worry, your entry is saved, but if you'd like to enter again on the new page there's no penalty, we'll just delete the duplicate. We'll be closing what will be the 'week 1 page' here shortly.

Thanks for your patience, and good luck! (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Iron Man Challenge Stats
I have a few convoluted ways of detecting whether a character has equipped certain restricted gear for the Iron Man challenge, however, I would love to be able to just look at their statistics at a character level
Done. Check out the next PTR build - there should be visible character-specific statistics available to track this information. (Official Forums)

Vanilla Servers
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
I would come back to wow in a heartbeat if blizz made vanilla servers. I would love to experience it all again. By the way I don't mean this as a knock to current WOW, it's just something I would find incredibly fun.
I think the biggest challenges for an idea like this are a) would it be interesting enough to keep playing, and b) would there be enough sustained interest from other players to make the world feel alive. I could easily see the outcome being people logging in, going "wow the game is so much better now," and logging out. (CM_Lore)
IMO seeing how popular uh "theoretical" vanilla servers seem to be, I would say there is at least some demand.
Sure, there's definitely interest, even internally. We just don't think there's enough to offset the costs. (CM_Lore)
Personally, I'd 100% expect it to be something almost everyone just pokes at for a week or two and then drops. (CM_Lore)
Not really an effective use of time for devs who could be working on any number of features for the live game. (CM_Lore)
Speaking for myself, I'd love to go back and poke at classic. I just don't think I'd play it for long. (CM_Lore)
Or, the devs could just 'go back to the core roots', as it were. Yep, especially the class designs, every class used to be fun, but in WoD.
If that's the case, I think we'd rather focus on fixing the modern game. (CM_Lore)

Ghostcrawler Tweets
While the developers have been pretty quiet since @WarcraftDevs appeared, Ghostcrawler still occasionally talks about WoW. Remember that he no longer works for or speaks for Blizzard.
Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
Developer Communication
While I didn't always agree with what you had to say, i, at-least, appreciated that you took the time to say it.
Thanks. I figure at least then players can argue whether we aren't hitting our goals or if the goals themselves are bad. (OccupyGStreet)

We miss you dearly GC. @WatcherDev and his team are alienating @Warcraft players with their hubris.
Whether you like every decision or not, I am confident they have your best interests in mind. (OccupyGStreet)

Game Design
If I was going to make an MMO (I'm not) I think I'd shoot for something episodic with the expectation players come and go. (OccupyGStreet)
How does the social aspect play into that, though? Sounds like it would be hell on guilds.
I agree, but I think players are episodic already so the business model might as well be. Social hard either way. (OccupyGStreet)
Was there ever a time where that wasn't the case? Is it a more prominent problem today versus 2007?
I *think* so (?). A lot of games, LoL among them, are huge. They try to be the only game you need. (OccupyGStreet)
Which means ironically we tend to drop games as soon as we hit diminishing returns b/c there is so much else out there. (OccupyGStreet)

What you say you prefer and what you actually did ended complete opposite.
I was a lead designer not a dictator. (OccupyGStreet)

It stopped being fun when my hunter was mocked for not pulling over 100k dps. That was a year ago. #NoEpeen
I wish we had been more progressive about trying to curb bad behavior. (OccupyGStreet)
I wish so, too. I would never raid because of all the bs. But i have some awesome rare hunter pets
One secret is to turn off chat (in any game). That is pretty much their only tool in being a tool. (OccupyGStreet)

The game has too much math and has lost the adventure part. ilvl has ruined the fantasy journey of azeroth. Players couldnt see item ilvl back then. There was no need for perfect dpsrotations in molten core. It was an adventure
I don't think it was ilvl per se. There was just less shared knowledge, which makes sense for a younger game in the 2000s. (OccupyGStreet)
Most of us didn't approach *any* game back then with "How do I min/max this? What is the best spec?" (OccupyGStreet)
We played the characters we chose and when our guilds ventured into MC we used what we had. Alts were rarer in those days too. (OccupyGStreet)

Do you think WoW should have more exclusivity - like it did back in the old days? BC
Exclusivity works when it's stacked on top of normal content (not replacing it) which just means you need more content. (OccupyGStreet)
I was under the impression that Exclusivity was an integral part of why MMO's were successful in the first place.
I think so. But you can't have special content for the elite and nothing for everyone else. (OccupyGStreet)

I didn't start WoW until 2007. I recall lots of fun times since, screencaps from most of them, others just memories in brain.
I remember the feelings so vividly. I don't think you can recapture them though. (This is also true of most of life, sadly.) (OccupyGStreet)

DLC #490 - Food Buff
DLC #490 has been released.

This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 6.2 - Demon Models, Flying Feedback, Blue Posts, Vanilla Servers, DLC #490 started by chaud View original post
Comments 144 Comments
  1. mmocaccd5f9eea's Avatar
    Vanilla is very basic. Compared to 6.x, 1.x is unplayable. So many annoyances. You do get bored. But, its worth checking out for the nostalgia.

    Auberdine <3

    - - - Updated - - -

    I agree that WoW has lost a lot of the social aspect, and that is reflected in the dwindling subs. But, vanilla was a pain in the arse. I remember quitting in the 30's for about 6 months. It was that frustrating to level. Also we were all dumb noobs equipping the wrong stuff and not caring. I suppose that's the thing, the world was 'new', and nothing that Blizzard can do will bring that 'newness' back.

    You're only young once.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmonym View Post
    How long is Blizz going to keep playing this self-flattering game of claiming to know the future by saying people will try vanilla, immediately scream about how they prefer the current Garrison Prison With Free Epics so much more, and log out? Private vanilla and BC servers are not only thriving, they're growing - and that's despite the fact that nearly all of them are unstable, have broken or incorrectly scripted quests and NPC actions, have numerous ugly custom hacks to boost XP gain, provide gear for money, etc. There's obviously a sustained demand for such servers, and Blizz's fear that acknowledging vanilla and BC will undermine their current efforts is what's stopping them. I'd gladly pay $15/month for a correctly scripted BC or vanilla PvE server.

    There are a very few stable, decently scripted private servers which give XP according to vanilla rules, and those are gems. One was launched just a few months ago, and launch day was jammed with people in every starting zone. Even now, that private server has over 5k people playing every weekend. Yes, the retail product has far more overall, but I doubt any individual server has 5k on any day of the week.

    Warlords of Draenor has some good things going for it, and I still play and raid. But subscriptions (according to MMO Champion) are at their lowest point since vanilla. The game has been on a downward trend since Cata, and the usual rationalizations about games having a limited life-cycle may be comforting to the current devs, but not true. Play the vanilla game right now now, private server bugs notwithstanding, and it's still far more addictive than anything in WoD. Quests are hard, gold is hard, mana must be spent wisely, DPS must watch threat, pulls have to be considered even when soloing - get two or three mobs unintentionally and you may die, while in the current game any class can easily solo multiple mobs while questing. Vanilla dungeons require communication and CC, and because there's no cross-server or automated match-making, people on a server must get to know one another, know who's good to group with, and work to get better. It's far more social than today's exile in your own private instance, with no reason to come out - simply a better, more involving game.
  1. Bizarre Monkey's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    Is there anyone else who reads these "feedback" posts from "Muffinus" and gets pissed off?
    Not me. I often get more annoyed simply by the arrogance and entitlement of some of the players who always expect an answer to everything, to wit-- Blizzard has been a little too open with information and it's simply made people feel like they own a right to the facts, which, until it's publicly released, they do not. Now there are a lot of things Blizzard does I will not support, let alone defend, but player feedback is something they've become so good at it's a travesty to some players when they aren't being fed straight answers. More or less a victim of it's own merit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    I mean, is it just me, or are these people (the Blues who respond to feedback) just basically telling players to "fuck off", in a few better words?
    While I doubt that's actually their intent, it would not surprise me, I read even some of the juvenile things people here say and it's like... I'd rather not even read it. In fact I've read your post and deduced it was one of thew few decent enough not to ignore. Mostly because I think as a game developer myself I can only dare to dream of having this many people shouting at me. To be honest I'm not sure I'd be ready to take on a playerbase like Blizzards, because woooow.

    Imagine if Ubisoft's PR staff was suddenly replacing Blizzards, you'd be begging Blizzard's PR to come back, it's not their fault they are actually so giving of information it's actually become it's own problem.

    And lest we forget, only a decade ago pre-release game exposition sans some screenshots, blurb and maybe a trailer was all you'd get. You should be thankful Blizzard are this forthcoming with information, rather than demanding more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    It seems the blues get angry when players are asking questions and what not..
    The sheer magnitudes of the same question that they've already answered being broached would definitely annoy me, and keep in mind some of these are simply PR people, not the ones who work on the game and have pride in their work, and can immediately tell you why or why not a decision was made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violent View Post
    The one (muffinus) literally says: "I don't make all of the decisions." .. NO SHIT SHERLOCK... Does he really think some players think that?
    I dunno, could be just me, but the Blues seem like they're getting pissy with players.
    I think you're severely underestimating how presumptous and borderline mentally-challenged some people in WoW's userbase are.

    That said, I've already explained it's very possible that the Blues would get pissy with the behaviour and interaction some players are giving, especially when most feedback is devoid of reason other than "I DONT LIKE IT".

    Like, if you're a PR you want to be able to tell the developers why it may be an idea to consider, players whining that it's something "they don't like" is a fairly flacid argument, and what kind of excuse is it, like can you imagine the conversation.
    PR: "We've received some reports players don't like X."
    Dev: "I see, what is it that troubles players about X? Perhaps some sort of compromise can be made if legitimate reason is given."
    PR: "I'm afraid the only reasoning is 'Well sir, we don't like it.'"

    Now don't get me wrong, there are certainly some decent reasons why flying omission in Draenor hasn't been liked, especially when you reach max level, but I think the goods outweigh the bads in that situation, if you got flying at Level 100, you'd just save treasure hunting until then when you could cheat, either by monsters being too easy or flying trivializing the otherwise pretty challenging route towards the thing.

    Then it's a 'Can I get flying Early since I've already levelled my one character to 100?'

    And that's a downwards spiral into bad habits, those bad habits being catering to players simply because they whine, see Cataclysm Syndrome.

    There's no pleasing players, and the sort of loud obnoxious players who sought instant gratification Blizzard once pandered to are being overlooked a lot more unless they can provide reasons, that these whiners have to provide reasons now infuriates them because it force them to admit that either:
    A.) They're a spoilt brat and want this because it'll make the game better for them but screw anyone who may be dis-serviced by their whining being answered because they pay 15 US dollars a month (et al, just like everyone else) and wouldn't unsubscribe no matter how much they threaten they will to get what they want.
    B.) They are a mindless zombie and don't know what they want so are just rolling with Party A because Party A panders to people with absolutely no ambition of their own.

    Good on them I say for sticking to their guns, as a developer making a decision - especially one which some may call a "game changer" - isn't easy. I know this to only a very small degree myself, as I've mentioned I am a non-profit developer myself-- and Blizzard being bold is something that will never fail to impress me, especially when their bolder changes usually end up positively effecting the gameplay experience.

    Losing 3 million subscribers does not necessarily mean the game has dropped in quality, it means it has dropped in quantity, and the majority of those will be back when the patch comes out, and they know they will.

    If there was ever anything redeemable about the current state of the WoW playerbase it's that it has become so predictable.
  1. klepp0906's Avatar
    progression servers - "not enough interest to offset the cost" dude... are you kidding? The game has gotten progressively worse since tbc. You would have those seeking nostalgia AND those who never got to experience it. Bored folk such as myself too who have been done w/ WoD for almost 2 months now.

    and the cost... UMMM you guys make like FIFTY MILLION A MONTH. The costs of opening another server or two... seriously.... SMH
  1. Abigail1509's Avatar
    The DLC universe has an odd calendar!

Site Navigation