Legion PvP Preview
Lots of changes are coming to Legion PvP:

  • Honor and Conquest currencies are gone!
  • You now earn Honor Points to increase your Honor Level, granting access to more of the PvP talents, as well as Gold and Artifact Power.
  • In PvP instances, you use a stat template for your class and spec, all of your gear is nullified other than the Artifact.
  • Your average item level increases your stat template by a percentage, a 25 item level difference between two players results in a 2.5% difference in stats.
  • These stat templates allow for better tuning, allowing the team to balance for PvP and PvE independently.
  • The strongbox system worked well, so something similar is coming in Legion.
  • You will earn gear from completing battlegrounds and arenas, with quality based on your rating for rated matches.
  • There is no PvP specific gear, so the best players in both PvP and PvE content will be able to earn the best gear.
  • The end-of-season PvP awards are given separately to the top percentages of players in each faction, instead of in relation to the overall player base.
  • There will be shorter and more frequent PvP seasons.
  • Resetting your Honor Level once you reach the cap gives you a Prestige Level.
  • Earning Prestige Levels gives you a badge on your nameplate, unit frames, and scoreboards, as well as a title, wearable faction pennant, Artifact skin, a mount, and pet.
  • Two new arena maps are being added.

Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
There are a lot of exciting changes coming for PvP in Legion, and today, we'd like to take the opportunity to share some more details on some of those changes!

The Honor System
In Legion, Honor and Conquest will no longer be currencies that you use to buy gear from vendors. Instead, characters who have reached maximum level will earn Honor Points from competing in Battlegrounds or Arenas, similar to how lower-level players earn Experience Points. As you earn Honor Points, you will increase your Honor Level, up to the maximum Honor Level of 50. Along the way, you'll earn a number of rewards, including Gold, Artifact Power, and a brand new set of PvP-only Honor Talents.




Honor Talents are a special set of Talents that are only active when a player is in a PvP instance (such as a Battleground or Arena) or otherwise engaged in PvP combat, and work in addition to your normal Talents. They are unlocked, one at a time, as your Honor Level increases. So, by Honor Level 10, you'll have one option available in each row, but as you continue to increase your Honor Level, more and more options will become available for you to change up how you approach PvP gameplay.

For example, a Windwalker Monk who has reached Honor Level 10 can choose Rushing Tiger Palm, which lets them use Tiger Palm at range to dash toward and slow their target. Or, a Restoration Druid who has reached Honor Level 46 can take Deep Roots, which makes their Entangling Roots spell no longer break when the target is damaged.

Which Honor Talents you choose can have significant impact on how you play your character, and allow you to tailor your abilities to fit with the type of PvP content you're participating in, or even who you're playing with!

Kicking It Into Gear
So, if you're not earning Honor or Conquest to purchase gear any more, how will your equipment contribute to your character's strength in PvP? The answer is... it won't (much).

In Legion, as soon as you zone into a PvP instance, the stats on your gear will be nullified, and you'll be given a pre-determined set of stats that's uniquely configured for your specialization. Furthermore, any set bonuses, enchants, Legendary bonuses, or trinket effects will be deactivated (although your Artifact and its related Artifact Powers will remain active).

The only contribution your gear will make to your overall power is through a small modifier based on your average item level. For every point that your average item level increases, your pre-determined PvP stats will increase by 0.1%. That means a 25 item level difference between two players only results in a 2.5% difference in stats, compared to the 25% difference it makes today. There’s still a little incentive to improve your gear – a concept we think is important for World of Warcraft – but the benefits are much less pronounced.

These changes bring a couple of major advantages. First of all, it puts everyone participating in organized PvP on a much more even playing field. Obviously, you'll still want to unlock your Honor Talents to reach your full potential, but you'll be able to hold your own in battle in the meantime.

Second, it allows us infinitely more control to make PvP-specific balance tweaks. If one spec's Mastery is too strong in PvP, that's fine – we can just reduce the amount of Mastery they have. If a spec is too easy to kill, we can increase their Stamina. If a healer is having too much trouble keeping teammates alive, we can increase their Spellpower. In short, we can tune classes for PvP in a way that’s exclusively focused on PvP.

Equipping For Battle
Even though your gear has very little impact on the strength of your character in instanced PvP, and you won't be spending Honor or Conquest to buy gear from vendors, we still want you to be able to earn gear through PvP. We really like how the Strongbox system has worked out so far in Random Battlegrounds and Skirmishes, and so we're working on a similar system for Legion, with some major improvements.


In Legion, you’ll earn gear simply by completing Battlegrounds or Arenas. In rated matches, the quality of the gear will be increased based on your rating. Of course, that's in addition to the Honor you'll earn towards unlocking your Honor Talents.

We're also doing away with the idea of PvP-specific gear. Since your stats are pre-determined, trinkets and set bonuses are disabled, and your item level gives only a small increase, we don't need to worry about making you wear a separate set of gear in PvP. So, in Legion, gear is gear, regardless of where you earned it, with no PvP-specific stats or fluctuating item levels, and the best players in both PvP and PvE content will be able to earn the best gear.

'Tis The Season
Legion is also bringing several changes to how PvP seasons, as well as their rewards, will work. Over the years, we've seen the high-end PvP community tend to flock to one faction over the other, even if it's not the faction they'd prefer. Racial balance is an important part of that, but we also think many players tend to simply choose the faction where they feel the best players are.


So, in Legion, we'll be handing out end-of-season PvP awards separately to the top percentages of players in each faction, instead of in relation to the overall player base. That means that, even if you believe one faction to have an advantage over the other, you can still play the one you want to, without having to worry about losing your shot at Gladiator.

On top of that, we're planning to have more frequent, shorter PvP seasons. Since your Honor Level doesn't reset between seasons, and the effectiveness of gear has been greatly diminished, you'll be able to start competing at near-maximum potential immediately, instead of having to wait several weeks while you collect a new set of gear. That means we can have more PvP seasons, which means rewards can be handed out more regularly.

All For The Prestige
However, once you've reached Honor Level 50, you'll have a tough choice to make. You'll be given the option to Prestige, which will reset your Honor Level back to 1, and once again restricting access to higher-level Honor Talents. However, in return, you'll increase your Prestige Level, which grants access to a number of other rewards, including:

  • A badge, based on your Prestige Level, which appears on the scoreboard in Battlegrounds and Arenas, as well as on your nameplate and unit frame.
  • A title, also based on your Prestige Level.
  • A wearable faction pennant
  • A new appearance for your Artifact
  • A unique mount and pet


The higher your Prestige Level, the better rewards you'll have access to. We see the Prestige system as a great way for players who aren't interested in pursuing higher rating, but still enjoy PvP, to have their own unique rewards to chase after.

A Change of Scenery
There's one more exciting addition we’d like to share today: Legion is bringing two brand-new maps to the Arena.


Located in the fortress of Black Rook Hold, this arena features a large statue in the center, as well as three alcoves to the sides. Access to those alcoves is restricted by a series of gates, which will open and close randomly as the match continues. When the gates are closed, you can use them to hide out of line of sight of your opponents… just be prepared for them to open again moments later!

Also in development is another arena located in the forests of Val’sharah. When you first enter this arena, you’ll be encased in a dome of vines. When the match starts, those vines will retreat, leaving the starting area exposed to the rest of the arena. In the center, you’ll find three statues, which can be used to break line of sight. However, those statues are located very close to each other, so you’ll need to keep moving if you want to play defensively.

We're very excited about all of the improvements coming to PvP in World of Warcraft: Legion, and we hope you are too! We look forward to seeing you on the fields of battle.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Legion PvP Preview started by chaud View original post
Comments 218 Comments
  1. Not A Cat's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Killawar View Post
    Then the same can be said for PvE. Why does PvE gear increase in stats? Shouldn't it then be who can abide by raid mechanics the best? No. That's garbage. Why? Because part of the reward for doing things isn't just an achievement. It's gear.

    The same argument can be made for PvE. If PvP doesn't have numeric gear awards, nor should PvE have them. Why? "Because the satisfaction of beating the boss should be enough of an incentive!"

    It's garbage logic.
    Well I don't think PvE and PvP are the same, nor should they be the same in my opinion. I see PvP as purely competitive whereas I see PvE as purely co-op (with however many people you raid with). I want gear so I can kill the next boss which is more powerful. PvP kind of has that but to a much lesser extent if you look at rating. Okay you stomp the floor with these low rated players, you move up in rank. You then lose to slightly better players so you can't progress. Right now the current option is to keep at it until you get better gear to beat them and move up in rank. I don't think that should be how it works. I would rather have it be that you lose and don't move up in rank, figure out what you did wrong that could have made you lose, then work on getting better at PvP until you can win and progress that way.

    I don't think it's garbage logic, I think it all depends on how you look at the two forms of gameplay.
  1. mmoc3dde1cb131's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Killawar View Post
    Then the same can be said for PvE. Why does PvE gear increase in stats? Shouldn't it then be who can abide by raid mechanics the best? No. That's garbage. Why? Because part of the reward for doing things isn't just an achievement. It's gear.

    The same argument can be made for PvE. If PvP doesn't have numeric gear awards, nor should PvE have them. Why? "Because the satisfaction of beating the boss should be enough of an incentive!"

    It's garbage logic.
    Because PvP and PvE are NOT the same (that is the entire point of this change).

    I am 100% behind this change. (and looking at the rest of this thread so are a lot of other people)
  1. Killawar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Higuchi View Post
    Well I don't think PvE and PvP are the same, nor should they be the same in my opinion. I see PvP as purely competitive whereas I see PvE as purely co-op (with however many people you raid with). I want gear so I can kill the next boss which is more powerful. PvP kind of has that but to a much lesser extent if you look at rating. Okay you stomp the floor with these low rated players, you move up in rank. You then lose to slightly better players so you can't progress. Right now the current option is to keep at it until you get better gear to beat them and move up in rank. I don't think that should be how it works. I would rather have it be that you lose and don't move up in rank, figure out what you did wrong that could have made you lose, then work on getting better at PvP until you can win and progress that way.

    I don't think it's garbage logic, I think it all depends on how you look at the two forms of gameplay.

    They are the same. They use the same kinds of reward system and progress. That's how this game functions - gear as a reward. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. So PvE isn't you competing against other guilds/NPC bosses? I don't think that's the case.

    You state that you get stuck at a current rating when you don't have the "skill" to progress past a certain group of players, yet the same thing can be stated for your raid encounter. Don't abide by the raid mechanics as well? You wipe and can't progress. So then why should the bosses drop better gear if it's solely your fault? If you're saying that PvP should offer no new gear and better stats, there is no reason PvE should. Why? Because you should be forced to get better (by your logic) and not see a numeric improvement because you don't need it (or so you say).


    There's your opinion, and then there's fact.

    Fact: gear has been a motive since WoW's conception.
    Opinion: "I don't think this is good for PvP!"

    The reason behind this is that you say the game should correlate to skill, yet PvE abides by the same mechanic (raid skill, though different than PvP skill is still skill) so why should PvE then offer better gear? They work in the same respect (besting something), so said victory is what one should be after, not the gear. So why do you need the gear for PvE? Bottom line is, by your logic, you don't. So, lets just simplify everything and eliminate gear! Oh, wait... Then there'd really be a whole lot less of a reason to play.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Quilzar View Post
    Because PvP and PvE are NOT the same (that is the entire point of this change).

    I am 100% behind this change. (and looking at the rest of this thread so are a lot of other people)
    They have the same end. If you're saying they don't then you don't know what you're talking about. At every point in this game gear has been the reward. Why do you get higher rating? To get the 2200 stuff and a title. Why do you raid? To get the achievement stuff and better gear. Notice when you take one half of that equation out you have a lot less of a reason to do said thing.

    And once again, PvE and PvP have the same kind of reward system in retrospect, so PvE shouldn't offer better gear by your logic either. Why? "Because your skill as a player should be able to overcome the bosses without having to inflate your stats!"

    Garbage logic. And, by the way, I don't expect anyone to know what they're talking about, so of course the majority are going to agree as the majority are PvE and know fairly little about PvP.
  1. Derzorvadur's Avatar
    The -fact- is that they are still offering gear as a rewards, the statistical values for that gear while in instanced PvP scenarios will just have a predetermined set of values so that balancing is on a more even curve for everyone. If you get higher rating, you get higher percentages. While the gap in power versus someone who is just starting out won't be nearly as drastic as it is now, there is still a power increase for those players. Why does it matter so much that you have the ability to unnecessarily, not unfairly, be able to curb stomp someone new or on an alt? That is what is being debated here. Not whether or not its important for people to have gear that gets stronger as you progress further in the expansion. Of course there should be a power increase each time you go up. The question is whether or not it's necessary to be capable of two shotting a new player and I don't believe so.

    Making this change allows people who have taken breaks or are trying out an alt to not feel like it's pointless to even step into a BG because they are useless. This increases the number of people in the ques and opens the door for people who might not have considered PvP'ing an incentive to give it a try. This change literally negatively affects no one other than those who que into BGs simply to stomp someone who has 0 chance against them due to lack of gear. If that's all you que into BGs for then you should just go camp people who are leveling to get your rocks off instead because this debate is just ridiculous.

    For the record, raiding and PvP are not the same kind of gameplay at all. While yes, both types of players incentivize that feeling of getting more powerful with each tier of difficulty, those of us who are at a higher level of raiding understand that while gear helps in some regards it doesn't give you an automatic win. Mastering the mechanics has been and will always continue to be the main way a raid defeats an encounter. As opposed to in PvP where even some of the highest rated PvP'ers would find it nearly impossible to 2v1 some newbies who also had the same gear as they did because gear plays that large of a factor. Same goes for a gladiator level player trying to 1v1 someone who was in the best gear now, it'd be nearly impossible for them to. Where as in raiding, the top guilds on every server prove that if you master the mechanics you can defeat the hardest bosses with shit gear.
  1. Killawar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Derzorvadur View Post
    The -fact- is that they are still offering gear as a rewards, the statistical values for that gear while in instanced PvP scenarios will just have a predetermined set of values so that balancing is on a more even curve for everyone. If you get higher rating, you get higher percentages. While the gap in power versus someone who is just starting out won't be nearly as drastic as it is now, there is still a power increase for those players. Why does it matter so much that you have the ability to unnecessarily, not unfairly, be able to curb stomp someone new or on an alt? That is what is being debated here. Not whether or not its important for people to have gear that gets stronger as you progress further in the expansion. Of course there should be a power increase each time you go up. The question is whether or not it's necessary to be capable of two shotting a new player and I don't believe so.

    Making this change allows people who have taken breaks or are trying out an alt to not feel like it's pointless to even step into a BG because they are useless. This increases the number of people in the ques and opens the door for people who might not have considered PvP'ing an incentive to give it a try. This change literally negatively affects no one other than those who que into BGs simply to stomp someone who has 0 chance against them due to lack of gear. If that's all you que into BGs for then you should just go camp people who are leveling to get your rocks off instead because this debate is just ridiculous.

    For the record, raiding and PvP are not the same kind of gameplay at all. While yes, both types of players incentivize that feeling of getting more powerful with each tier of difficulty, those of us who are at a higher level of raiding understand that while gear helps in some regards it doesn't give you an automatic win. Mastering the mechanics has been and will always continue to be the main way a raid defeats an encounter. As opposed to in PvP where even some of the highest rated PvP'ers would find it nearly impossible to 2v1 some newbies who also had the same gear as they did because gear plays that large of a factor. Same goes for a gladiator level player trying to 1v1 someone who was in the best gear now, it'd be nearly impossible for them to. Where as in raiding, the top guilds on every server prove that if you master the mechanics you can defeat the hardest bosses with shit gear.

    That's assuming that you're talking to a person that is supporting having gear as opposed to one that supports a player not having gear and beating a player who does. Some people are very capable of beating another player that has better gear, and the difficulty is what some people actually like. Then, when you get gear on said other character and absolutely curb stomp said geared player, the satisfaction is there wholly. There's a difference between giving a player a chance in a BG and eliminating the need to gear period. 2% is nothing. If people are so concerned about gear disadvantage and people leaving then coming back, why not make the honor gear scale with the current season IE if you get the honor gear, this gear will remain the lowest gear set for PvP throughout the expansion, but scale. Example:

    Starting item level for the expansion (blues) is 100. Conquest gear is 135. Next season the conquest gear is 160, honor scales up to say, 125-130 on the gear one already has. Problem solved. This way, the conquest player has an advantage next season for playing, yet the honor geared player isn't left to rot.

    A PvP gladiator will have even less of a chance this expansion for outplays due to gear "equality" (lol), so I don't get what you're saying. Having a gear advantage in PvP doesn't auto win one games either, so that point is also fodder. And, again if you already say that you don't need gear to win in PvE, then why do you need better gear as an incentive? Because that's how the game works, and you're effectively taking that incentive away from PvP. These points of yours make no sense because you've effectively given the evidence to disprove what you're trying to say in your own response.
  1. mmouser's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Killawar View Post
    They have the same end. If you're saying they don't then you don't know what you're talking about. At every point in this game gear has been the reward. Why do you get higher rating? To get the 2200 stuff and a title. Why do you raid? To get the achievement stuff and better gear. Notice when you take one half of that equation out you have a lot less of a reason to do said thing.

    And once again, PvE and PvP have the same kind of reward system in retrospect, so PvE shouldn't offer better gear by your logic either. Why? "Because your skill as a player should be able to overcome the bosses without having to inflate your stats!"

    Garbage logic. And, by the way, I don't expect anyone to know what they're talking about, so of course the majority are going to agree as the majority are PvE and know fairly little about PvP.
    The goal of PvP is to be able to kill players. You want to be able to out-skill those players. If all you do is overpower them, then that isn't PvP. PvP is not and never has been about gear as gear makes it inherently imbalanced and no longer a game of skill but a game of luck...
  1. Not A Cat's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Killawar View Post
    They are the same. They use the same kinds of reward system and progress. That's how this game functions - gear as a reward. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. So PvE isn't you competing against other guilds/NPC bosses? I don't think that's the case.

    You state that you get stuck at a current rating when you don't have the "skill" to progress past a certain group of players, yet the same thing can be stated for your raid encounter. Don't abide by the raid mechanics as well? You wipe and can't progress. So then why should the bosses drop better gear if it's solely your fault? If you're saying that PvP should offer no new gear and better stats, there is no reason PvE should. Why? Because you should be forced to get better (by your logic) and not see a numeric improvement because you don't need it (or so you say).


    There's your opinion, and then there's fact.

    Fact: gear has been a motive since WoW's conception.
    Opinion: "I don't think this is good for PvP!"

    The reason behind this is that you say the game should correlate to skill, yet PvE abides by the same mechanic (raid skill, though different than PvP skill is still skill) so why should PvE then offer better gear? They work in the same respect (besting something), so said victory is what one should be after, not the gear. So why do you need the gear for PvE? Bottom line is, by your logic, you don't. So, lets just simplify everything and eliminate gear! Oh, wait... Then there'd really be a whole lot less of a reason to play.
    That is how it functions now, and I'm saying that I don't think they should be treated the same. Also competitive PvE is such a small niche in the community that I wouldn't consider it to have any influence on Blizzard's design choices. The fact is yes they are treated the same, but no I don't think they are the same, in one you're killing a player, and the other you're killing a pre-programmed treasure chest. That's the major difference, when fighting a boss you're basically fighting against numbers, but when fighting a player it's a lot less predictable and therefore relies less on gear.

    Yes there is skill in raiding, but it's a different type of skill. If you're skilled at raiding you aren't going to be skilled at PvP and vice versa. And it's my opinion that the progression system in each should focus on that. PvE has always been about gating content behind big numbers, and so has PvP. But that doesn't make sense in PvP. Someone shouldn't be skillful in PvP because they've played longer, because they aren't fucking a pre-programmed treasure chest, they're fighting another player. The gating should be that player's skill versus their opponent's skill.

    Again, it all depends on how you look at each style of gameplay, your OPINION is that they're the same. And the reasons you give are valid because they are similar. However, my opinion is that they aren't the same because of the clear differences in them. I don't know why you're trying so hard to prove your opinion is fact. You're saying that gear needs to be an incentive to PvP because gear is an incentive to PvE. But I'm saying that the difference comes in what you're fighting. If you don't see the difference between fighting another player and a boss, well then that's your opinion, but don't try and state it as fact.
  1. Killawar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by mmouser View Post
    The goal of PvP is to be able to kill players. You want to be able to out-skill those players. If all you do is overpower them, then that isn't PvP. PvP is not and never has been about gear as gear makes it inherently imbalanced and no longer a game of skill but a game of luck...

    The goal is to kill players. What helps with that? Gear and skill.
    The goal is to kill NPC raid bosses. What helps with that? Gear and skill.

    You're trying to justify eliminating one and not the other. Why? Laziness.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Higuchi View Post
    That is how it functions now, and I'm saying that I don't think they should be treated the same. Also competitive PvE is such a small niche in the community that I wouldn't consider it to have any influence on Blizzard's design choices. The fact is yes they are treated the same, but no I don't think they are the same, in one you're killing a player, and the other you're killing a pre-programmed treasure chest. That's the major difference, when fighting a boss you're basically fighting against numbers, but when fighting a player it's a lot less predictable and therefore relies less on gear.

    Yes there is skill in raiding, but it's a different type of skill. If you're skilled at raiding you aren't going to be skilled at PvP and vice versa. And it's my opinion that the progression system in each should focus on that. PvE has always been about gating content behind big numbers, and so has PvP. But that doesn't make sense in PvP. Someone shouldn't be skillful in PvP because they've played longer, because they aren't fucking a pre-programmed treasure chest, they're fighting another player. The gating should be that player's skill versus their opponent's skill.

    Again, it all depends on how you look at each style of gameplay, your OPINION is that they're the same. And the reasons you give are valid because they are similar. However, my opinion is that they aren't the same because of the clear differences in them. I don't know why you're trying so hard to prove your opinion is fact. You're saying that gear needs to be an incentive to PvP because gear is an incentive to PvE. But I'm saying that the difference comes in what you're fighting. If you don't see the difference between fighting another player and a boss, well then that's your opinion, but don't try and state it as fact.

    It's a different kind of skill? No, not really.

    Raid boss does a threatening move = you react to it. The same goes within the context of PvP except in a much smaller time frame and/or jukes and bluffs.

    I don't know if you realize this, but length of time played = experience. Experience = propagating skill, so when you say that someone shouldn't be rewarded for playing longer, you're effectively countering your own argument. The fact that experience is also rewarded through gear is an incentive to gain more experience. That's a function of leveling up as well, but once you're level capped - guess what - experience serves no purpose, and that's where gear comes in. You're trying to justify removing a PvP reward because you don't want to work for PvP. That's ridiculously ignorant. Players aren't pre-programmed? Actually, they are. You know those nifty little skills and buttons you get? Those are pre-programmed. A human being can only play to the extent that his/her buttons allow, meaning that there is a cap and players are essentially pre programmed when playing the most efficiently. This is why there are counter comps and the like.

    My "opinion"? Uh, no. This game has had gear as a reward from the start. Fact. You're saying that's a bad thing for PvP on the basis that people shouldn't have gear making a difference and it should be all skill. Problem with that is someone dedicated to the craft isn't getting rewarded for it like PvE hero is. You're saying that for the people who don't play's sake you should remove the reward from PvP so it's easier for them? That's garbage. There's a fine line between rewarding people just enough who actually do PvP, and eliminating rewards entirely. There are vastly superior ways of making PvP not a living hell for players who have alts (gear checks for BG's and matching up people who have equivalent gear, scaling honor gear throughout the expansion) rather than being lazy. This is what your argument is: laziness.

    You don't want to have to dedicate time to PvP to PvP. You don't. You have to dedicate time to PvP. You're rewarded for doing this with gear. If you're PvP'ing for the gear, and not to get better, you're PvP'ing for the wrong reason in the first place. Getting rewarded with the gear effectively separates the people who aren't dedicated to it from the people that are. By your logic, people shouldn't need better gear to PvE and the reward of defeating the boss should be enough, but it isn't. Why? Because this game works off of numerical reward (fact). PvP shouldn't work off of numerical reward is what you're saying (opinion), but as shown above, that logic is fodder.

    Either way you're "fighting" pixels, the difference is who/what is controlling said pixels, so yes in retrospect you're fighting the same thing. Trying to tell me I'm not is like saying you're not playing the same game because you're raiding ICC and not SoO, but the truth of the matter is that you are, and gear works as a reward period. Fact. Don't muddle facts with opinions as when you do it makes your point look all the more foolish.
  1. Not A Cat's Avatar
    It's a different kind of skill? No, not really.
    So you think anyone can be good at PvE and then just jump into PvP and do just as well? I disagree.

    Raid boss does a threatening move = you react to it. The same goes within the context of PvP except in a much smaller time frame and/or jukes and bluffs.
    It's that much smaller time frame and the greater possibilities that make it different. Imagine a raid boss using their abilities at random instead of on a set timer, then I would agree with you.

    I don't know if you realize this, but length of time played = experience. Experience = propagating skill, so when you say that someone shouldn't be rewarded for playing longer, you're effectively countering your own argument. The fact that experience is also rewarded through gear is an incentive to gain more experience. That's a function of leveling up as well, but once you're level capped - guess what - experience serves no purpose, and that's where gear comes in. You're trying to justify removing a PvP reward because you don't want to work for PvP. That's ridiculously ignorant. Players aren't pre-programmed? Actually, they are. You know those nifty little skills and buttons you get? Those are pre-programmed. A human being can only play to the extent that his/her buttons allow, meaning that there is a cap and players are essentially pre programmed when playing the most efficiently. This is why there are counter comps and the like.
    I don't think that length of time = propagating skill. You're putting way too much faith in the playerbase if you think that everyone who has played for a long time is skilled at this game because that's simply not true. Players aren't pre-programmed because they can use those programmed abilities in hundreds of different combinations compared to bosses which operate on one constant cycle.

    My "opinion"? Uh, no. This game has had gear as a reward from the start. Fact. You're saying that's a bad thing for PvP on the basis that people shouldn't have gear making a difference and it should be all skill. Problem with that is someone dedicated to the craft isn't getting rewarded for it like PvE hero is. You're saying that for the people who don't play's sake you should remove the reward from PvP so it's easier for them? That's garbage. There's a fine line between rewarding people just enough who actually do PvP, and eliminating rewards entirely. There are vastly superior ways of making PvP not a living hell for players who have alts (gear checks for BG's and matching up people who have equivalent gear, scaling honor gear throughout the expansion) rather than being lazy. This is what your argument is: laziness.
    If that person dedicated to the craft isn't as skilled as someone who just started playing then they shouldn't be rewarded in PvP because they are losing. Just like if you don't kill a boss you don't get loot because you lost. If you win, you go up in rank. Although I can agree with you that I think they should have some sort of cosmetic rewards, like challenge mode sets and weapons, as people get higher in rank. But that way the armor/weapons are still a reward but they don't give you an advantage over someone just starting. Also you really need to tone down with the aggressiveness. I just disagree with you yet you're insulting me and it makes you look childish to be honest.

    Either way you're "fighting" pixels, the difference is who/what is controlling said pixels, so yes in retrospect you're fighting the same thing. Trying to tell me I'm not is like saying you're not playing the same game because you're raiding ICC and not SoO, but the truth of the matter is that you are, and gear works as a reward period. Fact. Don't muddle facts with opinions as when you do it makes your point look all the more foolish.
    That analogy doesn't make much sense. ICC and SOO are both PvE so I don't understand what comparison you're making. What's controlling the pixels is what makes all of the difference like I said earlier in this post. If you think fighting a boss is the same thing as fighting a player then I'm going to have to play your childish insult game and say you're foolish.
  1. Killawar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Higuchi View Post
    So you think anyone can be good at PvE and then just jump into PvP and do just as well? I disagree.



    It's that much smaller time frame and the greater possibilities that make it different. Imagine a raid boss using their abilities at random instead of on a set timer, then I would agree with you.



    I don't think that length of time = propagating skill. You're putting way too much faith in the playerbase if you think that everyone who has played for a long time is skilled at this game because that's simply not true. Players aren't pre-programmed because they can use those programmed abilities in hundreds of different combinations compared to bosses which operate on one constant cycle.



    If that person dedicated to the craft isn't as skilled as someone who just started playing then they shouldn't be rewarded in PvP because they are losing. Just like if you don't kill a boss you don't get loot because you lost. If you win, you go up in rank. Although I can agree with you that I think they should have some sort of cosmetic rewards, like challenge mode sets and weapons, as people get higher in rank. But that way the armor/weapons are still a reward but they don't give you an advantage over someone just starting. Also you really need to tone down with the aggressiveness. I just disagree with you yet you're insulting me and it makes you look childish to be honest.



    That analogy doesn't make much sense. ICC and SOO are both PvE so I don't understand what comparison you're making. What's controlling the pixels is what makes all of the difference like I said earlier in this post. If you think fighting a boss is the same thing as fighting a player then I'm going to have to play your childish insult game and say you're foolish.

    You're trying to make it that way.

    There are some raid bosses who use abilities at random, there's more time to react.

    Everyone who has played a long time is better than they were when they didn't. It's how it works. So yes, time does propagate skill regardless whether you want to admit it or not.

    Players are only capable of playing so well to the degree that their buttons allow. This is why certain classes have counters etc. If they were truly free to play however they wanted there would be no such thing. But because counter comps and counters exist in general, this shows that certain buttons take precedence over others, meaning that the buttons take precedence over the player.

    Stating facts =/= name calling. If you're going to say something ignorant and foolish, be glad that someone is willing to point it out for you so you don't make that mistake again. Secondly, you just said to use gear as an incentive, yet the purpose of gear goes beyond cosmetics. You're saying keep the gear, but make it nonfunctional. Reasoning? Because newer players will be at a disadvantage. So are new players at PvE. Your justification for that is that it's easier and less complicated to kill a PvE boss, so that's why gear should be a reward. that doesn't make much sense, does it? If something is harder than something else, shouldn't one be rewarded with better gear? Makes sense. Players are harder to kill than PvE bosses, so killing the best of players should be rewarded with the best of gear. Newer players? That's what the rating system is for. That's what MMR is for - fighting people of similar gear and skill. Update this and the problem will be solved. Eliminating gear entirely is a horrid idea.

    You're missing the point. Both pixels are only capable of doing so much, so in retrospect a player is like a raid boss and, depending on the player, the mechanics can be fairly different. Players only have so many buttons to work with (less so these days than of expansions prior) so you stating that they're some infinitesimally complicated thing is foolish. They're not. They're simply much harder than a raid boss in the higher circumstances (because some players will never be able to beat certain others no matter how hard they try) and therefore, should offer better rewards through PvP. Going into a casual BG and showing off this gear and title is for fun. Sometimes, gladiators want to go into PvP casually with their stuff and have fun beating on players who are bold enough to attempt a fight. Like I said before, if people want to fight glads in undergeared circumstances, have them be able to queue into it by selecting an option that doesn't take their gear into account when queuing for a BG.

    You could do all this, or try to justify eliminating gear and be lazy. It won't work because it's a theory, and practically it's garbage. Additionally, arena tournament realms actually have differentiating gear and required ranking for such. Most PvP realmed private servers actually do incentivize with better gear in PvP, and custom PvP gear at that.
  1. Derzorvadur's Avatar
    I really don't understand why some feel they are going to be losing out on something so great with the new system compared to the current one. Why is being capable of 2/3 shotting someone just starting out or someone rolling an alt so god damn important? In the current system, after a few seasons deep into the expansion someone who came back from a break or just starting out would have a miserable time just trying to casually gear up because the power creep between them and someone who had been playing the whole time would be massive. Not even that the person they were playing against was 2200+ and mechanically better than them in every way. That person could have simply just afk'ed BGs for a while and been in full conquest by that time. Right now that pleb who afk grinds BGs will end up with the same exact gear, stats wise, as someone who worked their way to gladiator rank. The only difference between them being their own mechanical skill.

    In the new system, there will be a power creep. The gap between those who have been playing the whole time just won't be so fucking massive as it is now for newer players, which is the whole point. You get stronger gear with the level of progression you push for, so even those who are pushing beyond the 2200 mark will probably have better gear than those who just afk BG's for long enough for once. Won't that be nice that those who actually grind ladder will now have something to separate themselves other than a recolor set of gear?

    The only difference in this whole situation is some people have this unreasonable expectation that they should be allowed to curb stomp new players or players re-rolling to an alt to mess around on. Just because you played the game from the expansions inception, doesn't entitle you to make someone else's game play unreasonably miserable for your own enjoyment. If your only desire to PvP lies in being able to zero on on a squishy in a random, unrated BG. Then just go gank people leveling because this system, if balanced correctly, should improve the PvP scene in nearly every way.
  1. mmoc79af98f473's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Derzorvadur View Post
    ...if balanced correctly, should improve the PvP scene in nearly every way.
    Aah bingo. Balancing and Blizzard in one sentence is quite funny. The new PvP system will boil down to fotm and nothing more. Better start leveling up them alts.
  1. Killawar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Derzorvadur View Post
    I really don't understand why some feel they are going to be losing out on something so great with the new system compared to the current one. Why is being capable of 2/3 shotting someone just starting out or someone rolling an alt so god damn important? In the current system, after a few seasons deep into the expansion someone who came back from a break or just starting out would have a miserable time just trying to casually gear up because the power creep between them and someone who had been playing the whole time would be massive. Not even that the person they were playing against was 2200+ and mechanically better than them in every way. That person could have simply just afk'ed BGs for a while and been in full conquest by that time. Right now that pleb who afk grinds BGs will end up with the same exact gear, stats wise, as someone who worked their way to gladiator rank. The only difference between them being their own mechanical skill.

    In the new system, there will be a power creep. The gap between those who have been playing the whole time just won't be so fucking massive as it is now for newer players, which is the whole point. You get stronger gear with the level of progression you push for, so even those who are pushing beyond the 2200 mark will probably have better gear than those who just afk BG's for long enough for once. Won't that be nice that those who actually grind ladder will now have something to separate themselves other than a recolor set of gear?

    The only difference in this whole situation is some people have this unreasonable expectation that they should be allowed to curb stomp new players or players re-rolling to an alt to mess around on. Just because you played the game from the expansions inception, doesn't entitle you to make someone else's game play unreasonably miserable for your own enjoyment. If your only desire to PvP lies in being able to zero on on a squishy in a random, unrated BG. Then just go gank people leveling because this system, if balanced correctly, should improve the PvP scene in nearly every way.

    I don't know if you realize this, but the goal of every single game is to make the opponent's lives as miserable as possible. that's the goal in fighting games, mobas, and RPG's. You're also forgetting that there are certain people who actually enjoy switching to blues and still beating someone's ass. That is great. Again, to the whole solution that certain people who gear in honor, leave, and come back much later in the xpac:

    Have honor gear work like heirlooms but rather than scale off of level, scale with the current PvP season. This way, there's no grind for someone who's already grinded.

    Season 1? Honor gear Item level 100. Conquest 135. 2200 gear 140.
    Season 2? Previous honor gear bumps up to 130. Previous conquest stays at 135. New conquest is 150. Old 2200 is still 140. New is 155/160.

    Problem solved.

    The entire problem is right there in your response - a pleb AFK'er has the same gear as someone who's 2200. That could be avoided if the gear actually had standards again. Remember the days of each piece of armor requiring a specific rating? I do. Got rid of the ability for people to AFK and still get gear.
  1. mmouser's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Killawar View Post
    The goal is to kill players. What helps with that? Gear and skill.
    The goal is to kill NPC raid bosses. What helps with that? Gear and skill.

    You're trying to justify eliminating one and not the other. Why? Laziness.
    The goal of PvE is not to kill raid bosses. The goal of PvE is to be the most powerful hero of the land. PvP goal is to be the most skilled player of the land.

    PvE requires gear, PvP requires skill. Different goals.

    Rewarding PvP players with gear basically makes PvP easier for those of the higher gear levels. The more gear you get the easier it becomes but that is counter to what PvP should be about. PvP should always be about skill first. Remove gear and the PvP brackets will change quite a bit.
  1. Derzorvadur's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nullpointer View Post
    Aah bingo. Balancing and Blizzard in one sentence is quite funny. The new PvP system will boil down to fotm and nothing more. Better start leveling up them alts.
    Even if they don't nail the balancing perfectly, it's still an improvement over the current system. Literally the only people being hurt by this are those who's sole goal in PvP is to completely shit down the necks of people who have near impossible chance of fighting back. If you want to be feel like a god damn unkillable monster, then just go gank lowbies for fucks sake. Stop trying to act like you're entitled to trounce people simply because you never took a break or never roll an alt.

    And as far as the other guy saying that every game is about making an opponent feel as miserable as possible is concerned.. That's just piss poor attitude to have towards anything competitive. There is supposed to be sportsmanship when doing anything competitive, gaming included. I guess I am just a different breed but there are only so many times I can play a game or a certain difficulty when there is absolutely no challenge involved anymore. That's why I don't play street fighter/mortal kombat on beginner or any of the sports games on rookie or even playing on torment 1 when capable of doing torment 8+ in Diablo.

    Let's just cut the bullshit and call a spade a spade. If you are advocating for the right to be able to stomp undergeared/new players then just do so. Allow yourself and the others who agree with you stand together and find out once and for all if your group outnumbers the rest of us enough to have Blizzard keep it the same. I would be willing to wager you're a minority and while your opinions and feelings matter, for the rest of us it's a counter-intuitive way to play the game and are glad it's going to be diminished finally.
  1. Rolex Snob's Avatar
    any idiot can go youtube raid boss kills, pvp is and always will be much harder to master.

    Any PvER upset about this, just go kill more raid bosses and pretend the world cares about your "accomplishments".
  1. Killawar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by mmouser View Post
    The goal of PvE is not to kill raid bosses. The goal of PvE is to be the most powerful hero of the land. PvP goal is to be the most skilled player of the land.

    PvE requires gear, PvP requires skill. Different goals.

    Rewarding PvP players with gear basically makes PvP easier for those of the higher gear levels. The more gear you get the easier it becomes but that is counter to what PvP should be about. PvP should always be about skill first. Remove gear and the PvP brackets will change quite a bit.
    Power = skill. Thank you and good night. Euphemisms in an attempt to spot a nonexistent difference doesn't help your argument.

    PvP and PvE both seek to be the best at said thing. What helps achieve that? Skill and gear in tandem. You can be "powerful" (lol) without gear.

    Rewarding PvP players with gear makes it easier for people at higher levels? What? If two high rated people have the same gear with bigger numbers, the game play becomes faster not slower. Better gear takes more skill if anything. Higher haste, crit, mastery - all make the game move at a faster pace rather than a slower one, meaning that one must react faster and be better to play with people that have the same high level gear. Split second decisions and casts must be made quicker than before because the consequences for not doing so could result in a dead teammate even faster.

    Please understand what you're talking about before you speak.
  1. meathead's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopykat View Post
    All those raiders aren't going to have pvp talents unlocked. that's the whole point of it.
    and they clearly say that that the pvp system (the spec template and talents) will also work in open world pvp. So, no, the maximum advantage a raider can have is 2.5% better stats, which by themselves won't 1 shot anyone. On top that, the non raider will have pvp talents to use against the raider.
    might want to read up -bgs only.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Woa View Post
    The pvp sounds terrible. You have no incentive to pvp. Better gear? Nope. Not ever going to hit anyone harder than X percent of their health. That's not fun. So people cannot get a gear advantage they'll just all swarm OP classes. I enjoy crushing noobs and being rewarded for more work. Why pvp if im not ever going to get stronger. You will most likely be able to unlock all of your pvp talents within a week and those aren't going to make you OP to anyone. I'll just roll whatever is top damage in bgs and whats facerolling me in arenas. Thanks Blizzard, this is what we wanted. 25% right now feels fine. You can't go from 11 expansions of being stronger in pvp to just making everything rock paper scissors. Everything. You can't ever be a beast and 1v3 anyone because you had awesome gear you worked for. You're just going to kill one and then almost be dead because youre equally as powerful as this dippshit who never pvp's but can hit the buttons that light up.

    What a joke.
    dotn forget boss drops = gear! not only will raiders earn bis gear for any and all pvp they will earn it faster then you.im telling you guys read up on rifts f'ed up system thats all blizz is doing copying it and it will have the same effect = killing off open world pvp and most of pvp itself.

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