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Legion - Max Camera Distance Reduction
The latest Legion build reduced the amount you can zoom out with the camera.


Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
This is one of this changes that we realize will be intensely unpopular with the group of players that has used console/WTF CVars to increase camera zoom beyond what the UI slider permits. For everyone else, they probably won't see what the big deal is, since it's removing a hidden option that most never used. But for those who are accustomed to an increased max zoom, it's changing the way you're experiencing the game in a way that feels restrictive and simply worse. So why would we do that?

In a broad range of gaming genres (from RTS to Action RPG), being able to zoom out and see more of the world around you provides an objective advantage in the form of information. Due to that competitive advantage, camera-unlocking or increased zoom distance are features commonly found in third-party hacks for a variety of games. Whatever the maximum allowed, that's what competitive players will use in order to maximize performance, even at the expense of the game's overall look and feel.

We strongly believe that there needs to be parity in this area between players who are using the default UI and those who have addons or knowledge of hidden console variables. One option was certainly to just allow the in-game slider to go all the way up to the CVar hardcap. But that scale is beyond the one around which the game was designed at its core. The development team builds the world, its art, its combat mechanics, and other interactions, around the base UI experience and scale. At the 3.4-CVar zoom level, your heroic Warcraft avatar takes up about as much screen-space as one of the dozens of marines you might control in a game of Starcraft.

Basically all of us started out playing WoW at the UI-enabled zoom level, and fell in love with that world enough that we now find ourselves here posting on an expansion beta forum discussing its future. At some point, we saw a raid video and wondered how they could see so much of the field at once, or we saw a forum post or got a helpful tip from another player, and learned that if you typed "/console CameraDistanceMaxFactor 4" you could zoom out way more, and we never looked back. But was that original experience bad, or have we just grown accustomed to something different?

There may also be a bit of hyperbole in the discussion around the change. This is a screenshot I just took with the max UI-selectable zoom settings in the current Legion build: http://i.imgur.com/e8vFT6t.jpg

I'm not sure it's fair to say that this level of zoom entails your character dominating the screen, or removes any awareness of nearby threats.

Finally, why did this happen suddenly now, late in the beta cycle, seemingly without any communication? Honestly, the intent was for the change to have been in place from early alpha onwards. I believe that what happened was that one of the CVars (CameraDistanceMaxFactor?) was clamped from the start, but a second CVar (CameraDistanceMax?) was overlooked. That issue was entered and tracked as a bug, and was just fixed recently. As a development team, at this point we're fixing up to 2000 Legion bugs a week, and it's not always obvious which player-facing build will contain a particular one of those fixes. This clearly wasn't something we ever imagined could just be swept under the carpet.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Legion - Max Camera Distance Reduction started by chaud View original post
Comments 795 Comments
  1. Peekingduk's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by davidcryix View Post
    You guys are all kidding me right?

    I understand getting a feature you like removed really sucks but you're seriously telling me that you cant pick up adds in that beta screenshot of the fel reaver? Half the fights in HFC take place in rooms that don't even occupy as much space as the screenshot. How do you even avoid standing in fire when your character is so itty bitty on the screen? Is this why half my raid can't seem to stay out of allure flames on archie? They are so zoomed out that they literally cannot even see if they are in or out of the circles?

    I know everyone on MMOC but me is super hard core mythic raiders competing for server first and you would all be going for world first if it didn't mean selling out or whatever but come on. This is not a major change right? Can we all agree on that? This is not worse than no flying, talent rows instead of trees, other stuff i can't even think of (none of which i actually think are bad either)? I don't think this is a needed change but it also does not seem like it's a 600 comment change either.
    You probably only do lfr so you can't know what it's like to lose this.
  1. davidcryix's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Peekingduk View Post
    You probably only do lfr so you can't know what it's like to lose this.
    Come on man. Get real with me. You're in the elite of the elite right? Mythic raider? The LITERAL 1% of wow? Don't you eat challenge for breakfast? THIS is a change you just can't bring yourself to live with? This far, no further?

    I am 100% not a mythic raider, you are correct. I refuse to believe that this one console command means the difference between being a "real" raider and being LFR garbage though. You really believe that? Heroic raiding with normal zoom out isn't real raiding?
  1. mmoca371db5304's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by davidcryix View Post
    Come on man. Get real with me. You're in the elite of the elite right? Mythic raider? The LITERAL 1% of wow? Don't you eat challenge for breakfast? THIS is a change you just can't bring yourself to live with?
    Camera Screw is whats called 'Fake Difficulty'.
  1. Shudder's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nupomaniac View Post
    I dont think you know how this works.
    I don't think you do, there already is one.
  1. manypillars's Avatar
    I feel bad for the art team that's getting thrown under the bus as part of the excuse for why this change is being made. So when Fuzzy Koalas wants me to think of the artists, I do. I think maybe they don't want to be blamed for what the dev team knows is an unpopular design choice which can only hurt the players who make use of it and will do nothing to benefit the players that don't.
  1. Volitar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Nupomaniac View Post
    The mmo-c are a small, mostly elite, whining part of the community. There are literally 500 copies of you on this site that will go against pretty much anything blizzard say with almost religious fanatism.

    What people on mmo-c thinks is most definately NOT what the average wow player thinks.

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    I dont think you know how this works.

    People fly hack, lag hack to cast all spells while moving, I'm pretty sure someone will find out hack the camera.
  1. Aelric70's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by davidcryix View Post
    You guys are all kidding me right?

    I understand getting a feature you like removed really sucks but you're seriously telling me that you cant pick up adds in that beta screenshot of the fel reaver? Half the fights in HFC take place in rooms that don't even occupy as much space as the screenshot. How do you even avoid standing in fire when your character is so itty bitty on the screen? Is this why half my raid can't seem to stay out of allure flames on archie? They are so zoomed out that they literally cannot even see if they are in or out of the circles?

    I know everyone on MMOC but me is super hard core mythic raiders competing for server first and you would all be going for world first if it didn't mean selling out or whatever but come on. This is not a major change right? Can we all agree on that? This is not worse than no flying, talent rows instead of trees, other stuff i can't even think of (none of which i actually think are bad either)? I don't think this is a needed change but it also does not seem like it's a 600 comment change either.
    chaud should seriously partner with online popcorn retailers. I just cant get enough while reading all these comments. Just needs to be low-sodium popcorn, because MMO-C has enough salt to stop a "legion" of hearts
  1. davidcryix's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Aelric70 View Post
    chaud should seriously partner with online popcorn retailers. I just cant get enough while reading all these comments. Just needs to be low-sodium popcorn, because MMO-C has enough salt to stop a "legion" of hearts
    Amen. It truly baffles me which posts get 200+ comments and even more so when it gets over 500 comments. Must be confusing because I'm a scrub that's never done a mythic raid and don't get real raiding i guess.
  1. Zoldor's Avatar
    From an aesthetic point of view, I'm sad, I really dug some of my screenshots at max distance that captured the large epic nature of some zones. Sadly, that wasn't what they were going for, for 10 years.

    As a raid tank, I hope our other tank comes back, because nothing like not being able to see around the 40ft tall boss for those adds that will spawn at the far reaches of a map, and after changing the pathing on mobs, it is so fun to turn or move a boss now. Going to be awesome to not be able to max out range. Oh well, it is their game I just play it. Nothing to quit over, but I find the change and reasoning very suspect.

    You know the art team got no heads up on this, read the blue post and looked at each other and went "fuck, really. Sack up Devs. We got enough shit over Worgen and new character models, we didn't need this. Bunch of over paid assholes. Who wants a beer, cause it is leave early day? No one read the forums until after Legion launches. Oh and, your children probably aren't safe at camp anymore."
  1. mmocbc77ce1859's Avatar
    Yet again the thing that disappoints me the most about Blizzards decision is the insistence on "removal". Just like the pruning of abilities argument, you aren't giving us a choice. There must be more of a reason than the bullshit "we designed the game to be more zoomed in", yet for so long have had no problem with the camera being further out than implemented in the UI settings.

    Ability prune.
    PvP gear removal.
    Even "Loot at mouse" being forced.

    Not sure if I have ever seen a company that asks for feedback on what it creates rather than asking in the first place what to do.

    If I am allergic to chicken I sure as fuck don't get force fed it by my wife, but even if it kills me I still have the option to eat it.
  1. bloodmoth13's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    You're a sheep for your "salt" comment. Not for your minority opinion of this being a good change.

    So this "hidden power" of the max camera distance has to be pruned because it is more gamebreaking than ANY other macro that offers game utility? Really? I wonder why Blizzard hasn't fixed the macro that allows you to switch to HC Deathwing fight after clearing the rest of the instance in normal (or using a save after Normal Spine). And that's an example of an exploit macro. I wonder why Blizzard allows macros of two abilities cast with one button press if one if off the gcd. It's one press invoking TWO abilities, not two SIMULTANEOUS pressed abilities. Those are two examples of gamebreaking stuff that can give an unfair advantage to ANYONE who wants to search actively for those. Not setting your camera further than the in-game slider with a legitimate game command, just to have a larger range of choice where to set your zoom level on the fly.

    Hidden power or not, removing choice is a bad thing. As for the new camera options? I play on live with no camera adjustments from the game, because i like to adjust the camera angle myself than letting the game decide it for me. One of the first things i did in beta was to disable any automatic camera optimisation and to find how to enlarge my camera distance. I managed the first, failed the second and haven't logged in since.
    Yeah, macros make things easier, but if your skilled enough you can still play just as good without them, my cousin was the best priest on my server and he never macrod anything till i suggested it to him. Max camera distance just provides more information, and information is power.

    Just because there are other problems doesnt mean that this isnt a problem, thats poor reasoning.

    The legitimate game command is used to bypass the restrictions in the options menu, this was always a bug that they just never fixed and never thought was a problem till they analyzed it, and found that playing the game zoomed out till your a dot is the 'best' way to play, which wasnt how they wanted THEIR game to be played.

    Removing choice isnt necessarily always a bad thing, players generally want to play in the most efficient way possible, if there is anything that gives them an advantage, or anything that not doing puts them at a disadvantage, then they will change the way they play, even if they like it less, and im making the assumption here that players are more attached to the benefits this provides than the the actual play style of being zoomed out to outer space.

    I use this personally because it is more information and the base camera positioning is atrocious, most of the time i spend staring at bosses feet which isnt my idea of immersive gameplay, and it can be harder to get a bearing for the game environment, but over all i find the game much more immersive and enjoyable when i can actually see my character. The action camera, which i am also assuming nobody here is aware of, fixes a TON of those issues for me personally so im not nearly as affected as most other players on this forum. If you dont know what it is check it out.

    Dont get me wrong, if this just popped up without any other changes id probably also be miffed because the base camera is clunky as fuck, but i still think that a better angle would help more than max distance, both with feel and awareness.
  1. Davaeorn's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkXale View Post
    Camera Screw is whats called 'Fake Difficulty'.
    As is every gear check in the game. Your point?
  1. Drusyn's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Triggered Fridgekin View Post
    No one will care in a week or two just like everything else that changes.
    Pretty sure I cared about not having flying all expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    If history can teach anything - there will be a meta achievement in 7.2 that will unlock the console command.
    LOL oh man that would be great

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dch48 View Post
    I play with the camera zoomed out just far enough so there is about a 1-2 inch space between my toon's feet and the action bar.
    Are you a clicker?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidcryix View Post
    This is not a major change right?
    Telling my RL on tuesday I might be banned early in legion because I'll most certainly hack my zoom.
  1. Triggered Fridgekin's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusyn View Post
    Pretty sure I cared about not having flying all expansion.
    That's fine, some will care. The question is whether or not it's a large enough issue and you cared enough to cancel your subscription in protest or if you just stomped your feet and continued to give them a subscription either through direct payment or an indirect token.

    I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't understand how folks vehemently complain about something in one hand while still subscribing in the other.

    If you did cancel your subscription then ignore the above because I can appreciate someone who would do such a thing and you deserve a crispy high five.
  1. davidcryix's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    As a raid tank, I hope our other tank comes back, because nothing like not being able to see around the 40ft tall boss for those adds that will spawn at the far reaches of a map, and after changing the pathing on mobs, it is so fun to turn or move a boss now. Going to be awesome to not be able to max out range. Oh well, it is their game I just play it. Nothing to quit over, but I find the change and reasoning very suspect.
    What fight are you talking about? I keep people saying this but there is no fight like that which exists in HFC.

    I know that's not the only raid ever but what fight is it that traumatized all you tanks so much?
  1. docterfreeze's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by h4rr0d View Post
    Could you please elaborate on that? I'm genuinely curious about what spell that had meaningful impact in PVP was removed because it wasn't used enough in PVE.
    Scare beast
    Spinning fire blossom
    Death coil (from all specs but unholy)
    Necrotic strike
    Healing orbs
    Widow venom
    Scatter Shot
    Scare Beast
    Aspect of the fox
    Void Shift
    Safeguard's CC breaks traded off for damage reduction to benefit PvE
    bannervene
    shield wall for specs other than prot
    evocation
    fel flame (the biggest one imo)
    backlash
    hibernate

    off the top of my head.
  1. Fabinas's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    The legitimate game command is used to bypass the restrictions in the options menu, this was always a bug that they just never fixed and never thought was a problem till they analyzed it, and found that playing the game zoomed out till your a dot is the 'best' way to play, which wasnt how they wanted THEIR game to be played.
    Who the hell ever told you that the console command is/was a bug? When the same command was suggested by blizzard representatives in official game forums to players wih problems using the "game default" camera zoom?

    I know it's their game. They can do whatever they want with it. But the hell and fuck will i be patronised by Blizzard telling me that max camera distance is reduced "because unfair advantage". If they want to make a game change, fine, but when they turn the tables down after all those years, as a loyal 11 year paying customer not only i demand the fucking truth for their decisions that affect me in the game, but i will protest to keep the status quo. I may not succeed, and then i may make other decisions about my future in this game.
  1. Shudder's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Aelric70 View Post
    chaud should seriously partner with online popcorn retailers. I just cant get enough while reading all these comments. Just needs to be low-sodium popcorn, because MMO-C has enough salt to stop a "legion" of hearts
    You can tell it's a kid posting any time a post mentions the word "salt".
  1. mmulder6512's Avatar
    So Blizzard is no longer honouring refunds for Legion, flat out told me no, so with these up coming camera changes , as well as tank changes I'll be hanging up my Tanking hat in favour or ranged dps, if I play at all. Enjoy
  1. Axphism's Avatar
    New camera zoom:



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