Patch 7.1.5 Class Design, Artifact Power Exploit Actions, Artifact Knowledge Catch Up

Why push out a half finished build for PTR then, especially if the mechanical changes don't make sense? What are we supposed to test in such a case, how broken shit is? This whole thing sounds like a backpedal to me because of the outrage since the release of this first PTR iteration.

That's what they ALWAYS do sting. They have many different teams doing checkins to a massive code base. heck it's also often why sometimes a new build deploys and guess what it doesn't work on windows 32 or mac or something. Conflicting code changes. 7.1 had a ptr build that didn't work on mac for a week because bnet pushed some bnet changes that weren't compatible without mac code fixes from an entirely diff team. That's just nature of diff teams working on different projects that sync their code into these builds. If they wait for them to be synced all the time though they wouldn't ever deploy any test builds, just release!. So they just deploy them as is but deploy often as they need to.

I don't hate the current Legendary system--if they made them targetable, then people would grind their brains out trying to target them, then complain about being 'forced' to do that one thing. Theyre adding more legendaries and tweaking some of the current ones and in my small opinion I'm ok with this.

Originally Posted by Sting

Why push out a half finished build for PTR then, especially if the mechanical changes don't make sense? What are we supposed to test in such a case, how broken shit is? This whole thing sounds like a backpedal to me because of the outrage since the release of this first PTR iteration.

You do know what PTR stands for don't you? It stands for Public Test Realm, you see the word "Test" that is there to test various parts of a new upcoming patch for any problems and why there are various builds of said new patch before release.

And even if they did release a half done PTR patch it does give them valuable feedback from those on the PTR on what is wrong and to fix it, that is why they have a PTR in the first place.

Originally Posted by Sting

Why push out a half finished build for PTR then, especially if the mechanical changes don't make sense? What are we supposed to test in such a case, how broken shit is? This whole thing sounds like a backpedal to me because of the outrage since the release of this first PTR iteration.

Yup the comments scream of damage control.

"The changes you’re seeing so far are focused primarily on how each spec plays in terms of mechanics, rotations, ability sets, talent options, etc. As some of these changes are fairly significant, we haven’t been making many adjustments to overall performance just yet. We need each spec to be completely functional before we can start tuning its effectiveness."

If they were really just concerns with mechanics/rotation there wouldn't have been any numbers tuning yet.

Originally Posted by Sting

Why push out a half finished build for PTR then, especially if the mechanical changes don't make sense? What are we supposed to test in such a case, how broken shit is? This whole thing sounds like a backpedal to me because of the outrage since the release of this first PTR iteration.

Because the guys that capture and push the builds aren't the same guys as the people developing. The patch still needs tested for bugs, not just tuning. As such there is alot to gain on blizzards side by pushing parts of features that are finished so that bugs can be found earlier and fixed faster.

Remember the PTR is just like beta, it's there for much more than just for us to test out class changes.

Originally Posted by Sting

Why push out a half finished build for PTR then, especially if the mechanical changes don't make sense? What are we supposed to test in such a case, how broken shit is? This whole thing sounds like a backpedal to me because of the outrage since the release of this first PTR iteration.

Isn't that what the PTR is for? Testing unfinished builds?

On a serious note; I get what you're trying to say, but actually this is pretty common for development builds, not just with Blizzard, you just don't get to see the development builds of many game/software companies. Builds are put out with various changes being at various levels of polish, as feedback can be provided for the finished components and even feedback on unfinished changes can provide good insight as it gives people more time to find problems, and gives the company statistics to base further changes on.

Originally Posted by Sting

Why push out a half finished build for PTR then, especially if the mechanical changes don't make sense? What are we supposed to test in such a case, how broken shit is? This whole thing sounds like a backpedal to me because of the outrage since the release of this first PTR iteration.

This is just how software development works. If the build compiles, you send it to quality assurance (which is what the PTR is) to test that the changes implemented so far work. There are some changes that are dependent on other changes already working. You have to find out if the first set of changes worked before wasting time on the next set of changes. On top of that, a lot of changes that are just part of a bigger overall picture might be done and there's no reason not to test that those already work.

So you might ask "Why don't they have patch notes that list the intended changes so people know what the plan is?" The reason is that if they post those changes, even if they put a bunch of caveats that they're incomplete, they're going to get posted all over various WoW news sites and message boards and a lot of people are going to take them as finalized. Even after they update the patch notes, people will have seen and remembered the discarded changes and think that's what's coming and get upset about it. When they just say nothing, they can be like "Well gee, I guess those datamined changes weren't official."

To make matters even more complicated, again, because of the way software development works, the changes we see on the PTR can often be a week or two old versus what their current internal version or their current plans are. Why bother making patch notes for changes that you already know you've discarded internally? Why try to explain the reasoning behind a change that you've already given up on?

When it comes to communicating changes possible future changes that might not make it to live, they're basically in a no-win situation. And this isn't speculation, this is what has actually happened in the past when they've taken different approaches to PTRs and patch notes.

My guess on how the life cycle of a class change works:
1. Identify a problem with a spec.
2. Come up with solutions to the problem.
3. Do some math to make sure the solutions actually solve the problem. Possibly do some rough prototyping on your personal workstation.
4. Schedule a meeting to discuss the solutions and get people's opinions and approval for the change.
5. Implement the change.
6. Commit local changes to code repository.
7. Make sure it actually works along with whatever other changes have occurred since you last checked out the code.
8. Code review to make sure you didn't make a silly mistake.
9. Merge to Master and compile.
10. Compiled changes go through automated testing process to make sure you didn't break the build.
11. Internal quality assurance checks your changes and confirms they're working.
12. Internal QA moves the new build with all changes in the past week (or couple days or whatever) to PTR for external testing.

And a "change" can literally be "modifying exactly one spell." Changing a class's rotation typically requires changing multiple spells and talents and buffs. The person assigned to change those spells might have 10 changes to make, and the part where they move the build to the PTR might happen when only changes 1-7 are complete.

How many more times do the devs have to be proven wrong about their "internal data."?

Already the comment about two players playing for 10 days and not seeing a legendary means nothing because a player playing within 24-hours of getting mythic+ boosted by guildies can soak up legendaries.

Even dismissing guild carries, there are people doing LFD "casually" and raking in legendaries.

Their system doesn't work. It's just a carrot on the stick to keep people who aren't lucky playing.

The ptr thing is pretty much common design sense but it's understandable players get heated when it's hard to foresee where your spec will land. We just got to be patient and offer constructive feedback.

Originally Posted by Stormykitten

The ptr thing is pretty much common design sense but it's understandable players get heated when it's hard to foresee where your spec will land. We just got to be patient and offer constructive feedback.

You mean like during Alpha/Beta? Cause that worked out so great.

problem why some people hate legendary drop system is, in my friend guild man who completed week before 110 next week droped 3 legendaries in 5 days, and some people after month and half still didnt have one

Blizzard hears the community, but they do not listen. There is a difference. They view their communication with the players like a parent driving a car with a toddler giving advice in the back. They nod and say niceties to placate the child with absolutely zero intention of taking any advice what so ever.

Mostly that is the right thing to do, but they probably should make exceptions from time to time.

Originally Posted by Zabatakis

Blizzard hears the community, but they do not listen. There is a difference. They view their communication with the players like a parent driving a car with a toddler giving advice in the back. They nod and say niceties to placate the child with absolutely zero intention of taking any advice what so ever.

Mostly that is the right thing to do, but they probably should make exceptions from time to time.

eh, most of the people complaining are hilariously out of perspective. legendaries used to be gated behind the hardest content and really long investments of time. now they can drop from dungeons. pretty soon people will be pissed if blizz doesn't mail them them their gear every month.

if people are getting this upset over their bad luck, maybe they should take a break and go outside once or twice instead of screaming at their computer screens.

Originally Posted by Zabatakis

Blizzard hears the community, but they do not listen. There is a difference. They view their communication with the players like a parent driving a car with a toddler giving advice in the back. They nod and say niceties to placate the child with absolutely zero intention of taking any advice what so ever.

Mostly that is the right thing to do, but they probably should make exceptions from time to time.

You're not insightful enough to realize that this isn't the same team working on the game as Vanilla-BC-WotlK.

This is equivalent to boss telling their customers to "fuck off".

If you want to ride on the "parent" fallacy, the current dev team are step parents insulting a kid that their real parents "left because they didn't love them" and that they should "get over it". Unfortunately you can't call child protective services on "bad devs".

Originally Posted by Cobrakai

eh, most of the people complaining are hilariously out of perspective. legendaries used to be gated behind the hardest content and really long investments of time. now they can drop from dungeons. pretty soon people will be pissed if blizz doesn't mail them them their gear every month.

if people are getting this upset over their bad luck, maybe they should take a break and go outside once or twice instead of screaming at their computer screens.

Speaking of "out of perspective"...

There's nothing wrong with legendaries being random.

The whiney bratty entitlement tempertantrums of the try hard raider never cease to disappoint.

The person who wrote that last response to blue post really needs to chill.

I am not a big fan of how you obtain legendaries myself, but for completely different reasons. As for what he is talking about? if you take three seconds to think about it, you will realize that it's not entirely a new fucking concept. It is just a low percentage drop. Period.
Legion isn't the first expansions to have them. One could almost say that low percentage drops have been there since start of the game. Why does their presence make this the worst expansion all of the sudden? Probably because he didn't get the one he wanted so he is upset now.

Power tied down to RNG values.
People with Legendary items\BiS: It's fine!
People without Legendaries Items\Shitty ones: It's not fine!

It's obviously a good system!

does this mean we are all pretty much focked?

If I read this correctly then it means several teams are working, for example, on feral druid changes? Like, one team is working on talents and other team on abilities, and third team on number tuning? If this is not the case and one team is focusing on feral talents and abilities, then why dont we get it all at once?

Because...if there are several teams working on each spec in the game, not just a single team really fixing glaring issues with some specs, then no wonder some classes are all over the place...it all makes sense now. If this assumption is wrong then in second half of 7.1.5 PTR we will get only numbers tuning...which would be sad.

This blue post is absolute bullshit about legendary luck.

A kid in our guild has leveled 6 alts. On 10 minutes from hitting level 110 he got a legendary. He then proceeded to go through all of his characters and receive a legendary on all of them he even calls it that he's going to get one.

Another guy in our guild on his demon hunter alt. He got 2 legendaries in one day.

This system is fucked. Meanwhile i'm running at least 5 mythic +'s a day on top of wq caches + raiding.

I do not mean when it was bugged this happened yesterday and the day before that as of this post.