Trial of Valor Adjustments - December 20

Originally Posted by Arcanines

I fail to see your point? What I can sure is still valid, what does me being 2/3 Mythic in top 400'ish progressing Helya have to do? Please tell me, you're just being a troll at this point. I did the entire mythic EN and did and still raid Mythic ToV just not over xmas break. We WILL progress Helya after newyears and such even if we know we won kill her before NH. Why? I said I enjoy the challenge and everyone in the guild does.

Also saying I'm a troll, all my points are pretty much true if you look into them. But if you wan't to call me a retard, PM me and I'll send you my Btag shit my personal info if you think you need to personally attack me.

You've been "personally attacking" people all over this post and have this response to someone criticising you on an equal level. Think you need to take a step back and learn how to interact with other human beings buddy.

Originally Posted by imunreal

Read my previous point. You rant and rave like you are the god of gaming, when you ain't even cleared ToV. You already quoted me on that. Read it again please, as I do hate repeating myself.

I never called you a retard either lol? It's funny how you see your opinion as fact as well lol

EDIT: hold on. Did you literally do the Internet equivalent of "let's take this outside and sort it like men" with your btag comment?!? LOL please stop, I need to breath

Well you sure as all make it sound like you wan't to, saying I'm a loud mouthed person, when I havent even cleared mythic. Yea sure seems like you'd like to hence sure ask for my details so no one has to see you do it. But no shit, the content is HARD, ITS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD. I like it being HARD, its MYTHIC, it's not meant to be easy, it's meant to be HARD. I give out crititism, and correct people where they are either wrong, as saying EN is too hard (lol) Too easy (agree), or is just flat out broken. I respond to what IMO makes a fight a boring fight (Odyn) but is still correctly tuned (just please remove phase 1 fight is else as it should be). I've never said I was the god of gaming, I'm in a roughly rank 400 guild, I'm more than happy with the guild, but I don't wish the raid to be nerfed because rank 2600 guild finds Odyn to be too hard.

Originally Posted by Sallador

You've been "personally attacking" people all over this post and have this response to someone criticising you on an equal level. Think you need to take a step back and learn how to interact with other human beings buddy.

No I'm not, I'm pointing out flaws in your comments if I did in the past, else to others, I'm giving in one post my own view on the few fights, and giving some raw facts. Like the number of guilds being done with EN, how HoV is a filler raid, and how it's correctly tuned, to be punishing just as it should be. Also learn to interact with people. Well, sorry if you feel offended by what I say. But as I see it, all my points are as close to facts/down to earth as they can be. Without spewing out DONT NERF YOU CAN KILL IT 1 GUY DID, or THIS IS TOO HARD, PLZ NERF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ODYN HITS BACK.

Elitists in WoW, always crack me up

TLTR.. but you guys seems to argue over something completely different than the point. The nerf is comming because blizzard want more ppl to complete that tear of raiding before Nighthold comes. Thats it. Once Nighthold comes.. do you thing any1 will even bother to go wipe pointlessly at helya only for the achievement. Yea i guess there will be some guilds who would do that.. but those are too few. Considering we are getting swarmed by new content (wich is awesome, and what every1 wanted right? ) just enjoy the game and continue forward. There will always be "that"guy who will yell and whine.. .. "but we did it the hard way, we were "SPECIAL" why bliz nerf so casuals be same as us... /cry.... shutdown the basement door.." ....

"These secondery stat changes should not effect or slightly improve your raiding experience" "Oh look at these totally unrelated and out of our kindness changes to raids , here are some jingly keys for you to look at" . In all seriousness I hope people are not too stupid and starting to understand what these 7.1.5 changes are gonna do which is put every spec except a few into the garbage bin and these changes reflect exactly that, just a heads up for you.

Originally Posted by Weikorr

thats like saying you can hit 895 with worldquests. Theoretically yes, but practically no, not even close.

Raids and one mythic +12 a week is by far the best way to get gear. Ive run over 600 mythic +, and raid mythic up to Ilgynoth once a week. Most of my gear comes from the raid or the bonus weekly chest

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Seems like you think anyone really cares what you think because you killed xavius.

they dont, im sorry

Your opinion matters equally as much as someone farming LFR . Having invested your life into Wow make your opinion on TOV nerfs more valid. This change either was / wasnt directed at you, but "normal" people are definitely happy with it.

Just picked one of their Demon Hunters at random.

Amount of Mythic 2+ Dungeons completed in time: 270
Amount of Mythic 5+ Dungeons completed in time: 103

I think it's safe to say you're talking straight from your arse.

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Originally Posted by Corruptus

Elitists in WoW, always crack me up

Kind of sad really :/

it was needed as nighthold drops in 4 weeks so who will be doing ToV then?

After more than 10 years of raid nerfs before new content people are still aggravated about it?

I would think by now the discussion should revolve around when content gets nerfed not that it gets nerfed in the first place.

Originally Posted by Mifuyne

Class stacking / exploiting / grinding 24/7 is also not really impressive.
I'm happy many people have been able to get through EN.
Top guilds will be top guilds and less skilled guilds will be less skilled.

Think it has more to do with time investment than skill. The top guild on our server raids six days a week during progression. They also farm M+ constantly and are required to have 2 fully raid ready toons at all times.

Time=/=skill

About time. I always avoided going to ToV after the first week because of just how LONG it took for 3 bosses.

Originally Posted by Carnedge

Think it has more to do with time investment than skill. The top guild on our server raids six days a week during progression. They also farm M+ constantly and are required to have 2 fully raid ready toons at all times.
Time=/=skill

Skill also has a role, just not as much as people think it is.

Why nerf anything ? AK and AP grind nerfs content because we are more powerful every day. What i would do is... bump ivl by 5 of ToV when NH opens and simply leave it as it is.

LFR doesn't CHEAT with Deadly Boss Mods, recount and voice chat.

It is actually much harder than normal mode.

Originally Posted by Cleavestorm

Why nerf anything ? AK and AP grind nerfs content because we are more powerful every day.

Because balancing content around artifact lvl and legendaries is such a nice thing. Not. Not everyone does AP grind, not everyone enjoys that grind. Your point is invalid.

Originally Posted by Arcanines

Good thing you don't do Mythic then, because you're clearly clueless. First a fight can be boring and tuned correctly, I found several fights over the years boring, but did they have the correct tuning? Yes the sure had, great job fam.

Well I raid mythic actually, I've already been progressing on Odyn for wipe after wipe now, you're missing the point many people will scorn you for which is raiding is supposed to be "fun". If an encounter is laboriously designed in such a fashion that it's only difficultly lies with repeating the same mechanics over and over again for over double the amount of time of any other boss, just to see if you can endure it's shit for 10mins, you are absolutely wrong in stating that it is tuned correctly, hence why blizzard are nerfing it.

Originally Posted by Arcanines

Examples of MY PERSONAL OPINION OF BORING BOSSES BUT STILL GOOD FIGHTS AS A WHOLE
Examples since you're 100% going to want them due to you being wrong in the argument. I find Ursoc to he boring. Why? It's a fucking tank and spank, we 3 shotted it on progression when it was still ''hard'' we didn't need vantus rune. We actually laughed at how easy it was. Nythendra, sure as hell isn't fun. You stand still, you get rot, stand still unless melee run out last sec. If ranged, stand still and move after it explodes.

Yes I agree these fights are also boring, but they last a 1/3 of the time it takes to kill Odyn.

Originally Posted by Arcanines

Killrog, swap to adds zerg boss, nothing interesting still tuned correctly. Tyrant, same as killrog just it actually has Edict which can kill you.
As you can hopefully agree or anyone can if they EVER DID MYTHIC HFC, these fights weren't undertuned easy, nor where they too hard, they punished you for fucking up. But I still found them boring.

Yes you found them boring, and both fights you just described again we're fast paced regardless of them being "easy", you deal with mechanics, the boss dies in a reasonable amount of time, correctly tuned.

Originally Posted by Arcanines

Was HoV released to early?
No it wasn't, blizzard even said IT'S A FILLER RAID UNTIL NIGHTHOLD, meaning it's meant as content for people who has cleared EN *cough* Mythic guilds 7/7 *cough* So it was fine, had EN not been a joke of a raid, then yes I'd say HoV was fine. But when you have 2800 guilds (just checked) who has done Xavius Mythic, I think its about time. We also have over 12000 guilds with Nythendra down, many of these 1/7 guilds PUGGED PEOPLE but wowprogress still tracks as 10 are from the guild. I'd like to think after 3 months if blizzard has raids lined up for the entire Xpack so we dont get a new SoO/HFC; then NH is comming out at the correct timing. 3 months is more than enough to clear the content you wanted.

Right so by your logic, this raid was only for the hardcore guilds who cleared EN mythic week one and had a nice easy farm time before it was released? I just can't fathom why you cannot understand statistics, if 2800 guilds have cleared EN mythic and a small fraction of that have killed Odyn, what does that tell you? That everyone >100 are "baddies"?

Originally Posted by Arcanines

Why does Odyn suck?
Phase 1 is redundant on Mythic, phase 1 was meant to show you the mechanics that'll come into play in phase 2 so that you dont get overwhelmed. We know the mechanics, we don't need phase one. In total I think we've had 3 wipes on P1 over our 120 pulls in total. Why did we wipe? We used several hours and came to the end of the raid where players get sloppy.

So you're saying an encounter doesn't need a whole phase, yet complain that the boss was totally tuned correctly... astounding. Ah but you finally get it, people getting sloppy, well people will get sloppy when they're doing the same phases over and over for 10mins before even trying to handle phase 3.

Originally Posted by Arcanines

Is HoV overtuned?
No, it's punishing just as it should be, I'm sorry you're a baddie, but you can fix that on your own.

I guess the majority of the community is correct when it comes to us "mythic raiders", you sir have a terrible attitude and contradict yourself on multiple paragraphs.

Good luck with your raids.

Originally Posted by Khorneflake

Well I raid mythic actually, I've already been progressing on Odyn for wipe after wipe now, you're missing the point many people will scorn you for which is raiding is supposed to be "fun". If an encounter is laboriously designed in such a fashion that it's only difficultly lies with repeating the same mechanics over and over again for over double the amount of time of any other boss, just to see if you can endure it's shit for 10mins, you are absolutely wrong in stating that it is tuned correctly, hence why blizzard are nerfing it.



Yes I agree these fights are also boring, but they last a 1/3 of the time it takes to kill Odyn.



Yes you found them boring, and both fights you just described again we're fast paced regardless of them being "easy", you deal with mechanics, the boss dies in a reasonable amount of time, correctly tuned.



Right so by your logic, this raid was only for the hardcore guilds who cleared EN mythic week one and had a nice easy farm time before it was released? I just can't fathom why you cannot understand statistics, if 2800 guilds have cleared EN mythic and a small fraction of that have killed Odyn, what does that tell you? That everyone >100 are "baddies"?



So you're saying an encounter doesn't need a whole phase, yet complain that the boss was totally tuned correctly... astounding. Ah but you finally get it, people getting sloppy, well people will get sloppy when they're doing the same phases over and over for 10mins before even trying to handle phase 3.




I guess the majority of the community is correct when it comes to us "mythic raiders", you sir have a terrible attitude and contradict yourself on multiple paragraphs.

Good luck with your raids.

So by your logic which I find more idiotic. A fight cannot be correctly tuned, yet be boring? Odyn IS ONLY BORING because of phase 1, add all their HP to phase 2 and it's fine. Also again, as I've said to other too, just saying you're progging on Odyn doesn't say much. If you're a rank 2800 guild, I damn well hope you struggle with a hard boss. You only got 7/7 because you got carried by 885 gear in EN (which I also proved new 7/7 Guild did) Over a span of 4 weeks, 580 Guilds are 2/3 and 860 are 1/3.

Thats damn well good numbers, just around 1/3 of the guilds having gotten the first boss. Because you have to remember out of those 2800 atleast a few hundred got Xavius during ToV being out MEANING THEY HAD LESS PROGRESS TIME. Each and every boss is tuned rather well, other than Helya needing 2/3 Sp's and perhaps her huge HP pool.

Also there is nothing wrong with being a baddie, if I make it out to be that. But the truth is, baddies will also get stuck on a hard boss. During HFC when my guilded raided 1 day a week, I raided in 2 other guilds for the remainding 6 days. Both guilds got stuck on the harder bosses like gorefiend for a good 2 weeks, and got stuck on mannoroth for a good month. And honestly, NONE OF THEM complainined about it. They knew fights like Xhul and Tyrant got carried by gear, and knew they are baddies. But they didn't want a nerf, people enjoy the challenge, thats why you do Mythic. Nerfing mythic because baddies can't do them is just dumb.

And a final thing ToV is meant as a filler tier, as in, this is extremely hard content. I never saw anything crying over Archimonde taking 3 resets to kill. Yes you read that correctly, It took Method the guild that got Helya in 3 days. over 3 resets worth of gear to down him. Archi didn't see many nerfs other than before he died.


Final note, because this is too stupid to bother, people wont learn that Mythic is meant to be hard.

Tyrant took more than 10 pulls to kill. She for pretty much everyone took a good 70+ wipes, which sure isn't fast when the avg from the people I know from rank 150-1800. Used roughly the same on Odyn or are closing in on that number and getting to P3 consistently.

Originally Posted by Carnedge

Think it has more to do with time investment than skill. The top guild on our server raids six days a week during progression. They also farm M+ constantly and are required to have 2 fully raid ready toons at all times.

It does, Carnedge. It's always been like this, too. I think back to our most hardcore days during Vanilla when we raided 4-5 nights a week, plus additional ZG and AQ 20 raids during weekend late nights. I don't even remember, really. It was constant. Fun, but constant. I had the time and flexibility back then, and that's how I was able to do it. We all did back then. We were "in the race" for whatever it was worth.

More free time translates into more progression of your character (and everything else), and that translates into kills and faster kills for those concerned about "the race." I'm not saying skill doesn't matter. It does. Big time. Skill doesn't mean anything, though, if you can't get past other big hurdles, and this is something only guild masters, recruiters, and other guild/raid administrators fully understand. There are TONS of great players out there who have no idea how hard mythic raiding actually is since their only job is to be at the raid, prepared, buffed, and cranking out damage.

Free time AND flexibility are indeed the most important variable, followed by reliability and attendance to reach the required 20 (which also is about free time and flexibility). Leadership must constantly engage in administrative efforts to make sure you have 20 solid people each night. Absences WILL happen, and people WILL disappear without notice, sometimes to never reappear. Ever. After that comes the sustainability level of your raiders, meaning all of them have to be fine with lots of wipes, slow progression, little to no raid loot, playing with more strangers and being open to that, tolerating personalities, etc. This sustainability ideally lasts the entire expansion. Most often it doesn't. Your raiders need to ENJOY this process. Trying to figure out who your loyal reliables are takes a lot of time. Once you have these "basic" things in line, then you start looking at skill (throughput, staying alive, timing), preparedness, strategy, communication, etc. This is the "easy" stuff that often solves itself if you have dedicated people. They often go hand-in-hand. We could also talk about morale, synergy, attitude, mood, etc. Lots of guilds collapse due to toxic, cynical, elitist people. Sustainability is a rare trait among guilds, especially raiding ones. They might last one or two expansions, but then they implode, break up, etc. This is because they have no actual foundation besides the raid itself. Lacking relationships. Another discussion there.

If you can't find a consistent, dedicated group of 20 people, even with some backups who are willing to play bench, you can't begin progression. Blizzard still doesn't let guilds use group finder to get that last person you might need, and this really hurts efforts, too. This is an easy hurdle for big guilds to cross since they can lean on their previous record and bodies. It's kind of like inheriting wealth. There's nothing wrong with this by the way. However, the advantage is often taken for granted. Ever hear some dude on the forums proclaim, "It's easy to get 20, brah." Lots of this talk during Warlords after all of the serious 10-man were sacrificed for the new mythic 20 change. You often hear this from raiders who don't play administrative roles. For smaller, newer guilds, this is a gigantic, often impossible challenge to overcome. Tons of guilds get 14-19 people and never get off the ground, even though they have skilled, reliable people. Snagging a mythic Nythendra kill is the first step. Getting her a second time and then farming her is the second step that many have failed to do. The third step is getting Elerethe and Ursoc down. Another big hurdle, along with farming them after. Dragons is the next big step since it requires further precision from all 20. The list goes on.

Our biggest challenge is trying to get the same 20 people each week. I don't think it's happened yet - there is always one, two, or three "shuffles" to the raid team each week. It's happened with tanks and healers, too. That being said, we've been able to get 4/7M on a two-night per week raid schedule due to dedication, loyalty, raid experience, preparedness, leadership, recruitment, and finally raiding skill. If you can get 99-100% attendance from your 20 you will progress MUCH faster and things will become MUCH easier.

It would be interesting to see how rankings would change on each server if all guilds raided on the exact same raid nights for an equal amount of time. "The race" doesn't mean much since we can't properly compare apples to apples. Guilds that raid earlier in the week will get kills faster and higher rankings, even if they're sloppier, take more attempts, and are not as good as other guilds. If these "early-week" guilds also raid 3-5 nights a week, such as with a Tues/Wed/Thurs schedule, their rankings will naturally be even higher, giving them the appearance of "being better." It's all about time and schedule. Guilds that raid three nights per week need to be ranked against other guilds that raid three nights per week, etc. Take it a step further and only rank them against other three-night guilds that also raid on the exact same three nights. That would give us a more valid picture of what's actually happening out there. The most progressive raiding guilds - the smallest minorities - deviate even further, and that's why they don't really matter when it comes to broader discussions, such as this current TOV nerf.

Just my two cents.

Originally Posted by Arcanines

what does me being 2/3 Mythic in top 400'ish progressing Helya have to do? Please tell me

Quite easy. Pretty much all guilds having the skill to kill Helya allready killed her.

Blizzard has 2 options after that, seeing the low numbers of kills.
Either they do nothing and tryharding guilds may kill her once they overgear it even more than they allready do. Which is the stupid option.
Or they nerf an overtuned raid to fit the dificulty with the rewards so non top tier guilds can finally kill her without loosing sanity/members/time. Which is obviously the smart option, the one blizzard took.

Originally Posted by Ealyssa

Quite easy. Pretty much all guilds having the skill to kill Helya allready killed her.

Blizzard has 2 options after that, seeing the low numbers of kills.
Either they do nothing and tryharding guilds may kill her once they overgear it even more than they allready do. Which is the stupid option.
Or they nerf an overtuned raid to fit the dificulty with the rewards so non top tier guilds can finally kill her without loosing sanity/members/time. Which is obviously the smart option, the one blizzard took.

Yes, and? It's still better than nerf it. If people haven't the skill to kill her atm, so let them get better stuff and try it again, and again, and again until they kill her. Making her easier is not a good solution, they just ask players to be brainless to kill.

We just had our first Helya HC kill. Had . Good that it happened pre nerf. we got 876 average ilvl and it is absolutely doable. you just need to learn the fight and figure out what to do. Now that we made it i wouldnt call the fight "hard". its just challenging. as it should be.