World First Ragnaros and Onyxia Kill on Classic by APES - Gehennas EU
It only took a week to see the first world first kill of Ragnaros and Onyxia on the new classic server, and we owe the crazy performance to on the European Gehennas server!

The original world first kill of Ragnaros was 154 days after the initial release of the raid, years of game knowledge and practice took this down to just 6 days!



This article was originally published in forum thread: World First Ragnaros Kill on Classic by APES - Gehennas EU started by MagicFind View original post
Comments 459 Comments
  1. Tigz940's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Factsbeforefeelings View Post
    Imagine still thinking this actually made any difference at all.
    Imagine not having a clue how important debuff slots were in this game. Prioritizing debuffs was a huge part of the game. Demo Shout, Thunderfury, etc. Game changers. Them falling off would wipe a raid.

    I was in Ascent back in vanilla and beyond. I was there for the world firsts. You're seeing a version of Classic that includes countless QoL features that simply weren't available during the initial Ragnaros grind. 230 fire resistance in five days is ridiculous. That simply wasn't a thing without major stat sacrifice and TONS of farming. Ragnaros nerfs. Countless bug fixes. Shaman, Mage, Paladin, Rogue, Priest class overhauls. Threat changes.

    I held no illusions that Rag would be up for a while in a 1.12 release. If this was 1.2? Good luck.

    Many people simply don't understand what end-game raiding was like back in the day. They see encounters that LOOK mechanically simple but don't understand the complexities happening out-of-sight. Things that are taken for granted today played a huge role in raiding back then - threat, for example. Debuff managing. Downranking spells. People also compare their experiences with casual raiding in later patches of vanilla against raiding today - how many times have you seen "Well the HARD part of raiding was just finding 40 people who weren't idiots!"

    No.

    The hard part of casual raiding, months after content was cleared? Sure. But if you honestly think that the best guild in the world (Ascent) wasn't filled with some of the best gamers in the world, I don't know what to tell you. We had fifty people showing up every night to raid. Fifty of the best. It still took half a year.

    The game has changed, for sure. Raiding is different. But to say Rag lived as long as he did because "players were bad" is simply foolish. Method is no more talented today than Ascent/Fury/etc. were back then. They're simply playing different games.
  1. fiffer86's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigz940 View Post
    Imagine not having a clue how important debuff slots were in this game. Prioritizing debuffs was a huge part of the game. Demo Shout, Thunderfury, etc. Game changers. Them falling off would wipe a raid.

    I was in Ascent back in vanilla and beyond. I was there for the world firsts. You're seeing a version of Classic that includes countless QoL features that simply weren't available during the initial Ragnaros grind. 230 fire resistance in five days is ridiculous. That simply wasn't a thing without major stat sacrifice and TONS of farming. Ragnaros nerfs. Countless bug fixes. Shaman, Mage, Paladin, Rogue, Priest class overhauls. Threat changes.

    I held no illusions that Rag would be up for a while in a 1.12 release. If this was 1.2? Good luck.

    Many people simply don't understand what end-game raiding was like back in the day. They see encounters that LOOK mechanically simple but don't understand the complexities happening out-of-sight. Things that are taken for granted today played a huge role in raiding back then - threat, for example. Debuff managing. Downranking spells. People also compare their experiences with casual raiding in later patches of vanilla against raiding today - how many times have you seen "Well the HARD part of raiding was just finding 40 people who weren't idiots!"

    No.

    The hard part of casual raiding, months after content was cleared? Sure. But if you honestly think that the best guild in the world (Ascent) wasn't filled with some of the best gamers in the world, I don't know what to tell you. We had fifty people showing up every night to raid. Fifty of the best. It still took half a year.

    The game has changed, for sure. Raiding is different. But to say Rag lived as long as he did because "players were bad" is simply foolish. Method is no more talented today than Ascent/Fury/etc. were back then. They're simply playing different games.
    This is only half the picture though. The biggest hurdle with MC was not the mechanics, or even fire resist. It was the simple fact that nobody, not even the best players in the world, had any clue what they were doing, and didn't have the addon's and information that those people were creating at the time, in order to pull it off.

    Things like optimal talent builds, weapon choice, rotations, spell levels, etc. were all being figured out. Addons like DMG meters, click casting, threat meters, unit frame changes, etc. barely existed. Communication was minimal, with many people, even in competitive guilds, not using voice chat.

    So flash forward ~14 years, when all this information has been perfected, is it any surprise at all that a guild of veteran vanilla players was able to just smash it? Not at all. It's not so much that players were "bad" mechanically, it's that even the best players were "bad" when looking at the knowledge they didn't have at the time, versus what they would have now.

    Put it this way, I guarantee that if we could go back in time to January 2005 when MC was first seeing progression, and gave Ascent access to all the addon's, voice chat, and optimized all their gear/talent builds... Rag would have been decimated.

    Sure, if this was a true re-release it would have taken longer to get the fire resist, but nothing would stop the simple fact that Rag would get blown up within weeks still. Nothing about that fight was mechanically difficult aside from healing (hence the need for fire resist).

    https://www.method.gg/video/Br1hXGXJ7Tg

    I mean just look: world first kill... spends the majority of the fight standing in 1 spot, casually chats to the guild and whispers, does a fair amount of using the mouse to activate abilities.... this is not a world class player by today's standard... BUT in 2005? Absolutely. Because people were still figuring the game out, and working on becoming optimal.
  1. Factsbeforefeelings's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigz940 View Post
    Imagine not having a clue how important debuff slots were in this game.
    Explain how important those extra 8 debuff slots were on this Ragnaros kill. Explain how much of a difference they made.


    lol.
  1. LarryFromHumanResources's Avatar
    And now they can sell runs to people that are attuned, fantastic
  1. toffmcsoft's Avatar
    If APES wanted to they could get World First Kills in retail.
    The guild is too smart to dedicate their time to a trash game though.

    What many don't understand is APES plays classic because they can DESTROY an entire server. The guild literally exist to own the entire realm. Something you CAN'T do in retail. This is why classic shines. Closed Realms are miniature worlds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nelle View Post
    Ok boiz pack it up. Classic is over. Now come back to BFA.
    Unfortunately you don't want classic players to pack it up as they won't end up going to the trash of a game BFA is.
    Classic players will quit and remove subs, not switch to trash.
  1. Frozenbro's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by fiffer86 View Post

    https://www.method.gg/video/Br1hXGXJ7Tg

    I mean just look: world first kill... spends the majority of the fight standing in 1 spot, casually chats to the guild and whispers, does a fair amount of using the mouse to activate abilities.... this is not a world class player by today's standard... BUT in 2005? Absolutely. Because people were still figuring the game out, and working on becoming optimal.
    That video made me puke, to think that was the top of vanilla is hilarious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    What many don't understand is APES plays classic because they can DESTROY an entire server. The guild literally exist to own the entire realm. Something you CAN'T do in retail. This is why classic shines. Closed Realms are miniature worlds.
    Ever heard about competition? thats what retail has with Method/Limit and all those guilds doing mindblowing preparation for world first, something classic doesnt has cause, well, its classic.
  1. toffmcsoft's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    That video made me puke, to think that was the top of vanilla is hilarious.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ever heard about competition? thats what retail has with Method/Limit and all those guilds doing mindblowing preparation for world first, something classic doesnt has cause, well, its classic.
    Yes because wow should be an esport, exactly what the mmo community needs!
    Classic isn't about competition it's about rivalry & community and that's what closed realms have.

    The only competition retail has is gear boundaries. The bosses are literally tuned to the T from a numbers perspective.
    The retail mentality is just "race to be the first to down this mythic raid because it's a competition to progress" then rinse and repeat. Pretty boring if you ask me.

    The Classic mentality is about enjoying an mmo in a world that you can escape in for hours on end. Something retail will never have again.

    In all seriousness, it's RPG vs eSport or better yet, RPG vs Casino.
  1. Frozenbro's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    Yes because wow should be an esport, exactly what the mmo community needs!
    Classic isn't about competition it's about rivalry & community and that's what closed realms have.

    The only competition retail has is gear boundaries. The bosses are literally tuned to the T from a numbers perspective.
    The retail mentality is just "race to be the first to down this mythic raid because it's a competition to progress" then rinse and repeat. Pretty boring if you ask me.

    The Classic mentality is about enjoying an mmo in a world that you can escape in for hours on end. Something retail will never have again.

    In all seriousness, it's RPG vs eSport or better yet, RPG vs Casino.
    Thats just your illusion cause you are still lvling, which i agree adds to the rpg feel, but endgame? its gonna be the same as retail, ilvl is already there, logs are being used https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/ so expect to be dissapointed, its time to remove your vanilla glasses and realize this is classic.
  1. toffmcsoft's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Thats just your illusion cause you are still lvling, which i agree adds to the rpg feel, but endgame? its gonna be the same as retail, ilvl is already there, logs are being used https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/ so expect to be dissapointed, its time to remove your vanilla glasses and realize this is classic.
    Unfortunately, lvl 60 for me is very organized pvp raids in between very organized pve raids.
    It's going to be an absolute blast, just like pservers.

    I can spend hours on end world pvping where as I sign into retail, do a bg or arena and want to hang myself due to the repetitiveness.
  1. Frozenbro's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    Unfortunately, lvl 60 for me is very organized pvp raids in between very organized pve raids.
    It's going to be an absolute blast, just like pservers.

    I can spend hours on end world pvping where as I sign into retail, do a bg or arena and want to hang myself due to the repetitiveness.
    Wasnt this a pve thing? cause i pointed out that classic pve is gonna be as elitist as retail pve, pvp ofc its diff, retail has nonexistant world pvp while in classic world pvp is one of the selling points, anyone that doesnt realize this is blind tbh, so i agree with you there, classic for the world pvp makes complete sense.
  1. toffmcsoft's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Wasnt this a pve thing? cause i pointed out that classic pve is gonna be as elitist as retail pve, pvp ofc its diff, retail has nonexistant world pvp while in classic world pvp is one of the selling points, anyone that doesnt realize this is blind tbh, so i agree with you there, classic for the world pvp makes complete sense.
    Yes end game raids in classic are very boring, especially MC & Ony being faceroll.
    I agree with you there.

    AQ & Naxx are very fun though and most likely less then 10% of the player base will even step foot into Naxx.

    For me, I'm all about the open world and enjoying the server community. Something that hasn't been around since Vanilla in pretty much any game.
  1. Bjay's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    If APES wanted to they could get World First Kills in retail.
    What the fuck are you even talking about? They wouldn't be able to get top20, let alone world first with which there is a colossal difference in. A majority of these guys are not world class players, they're classic enthusiasts.
  1. toffmcsoft's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjay View Post
    What the fuck are you even talking about? They wouldn't be able to get top20, let alone world first with which there is a colossal difference in. A majority of these guys are not world class players, they're classic enthusiasts.
    PVE isn't hard my friend, no matter if it's retail or classic.
    PVP is where it's at and PVE is just a walk in the park for any skilled PVP player.

    APES would roll over World First content if they wanted to.
  1. Bjay's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    PVE isn't hard my friend, no matter if it's retail or classic.
    PVP is where it's at and PVE is just a walk in the park for any skilled PVP player.

    APES would roll over World First content if they wanted to.
    There is no such thing as "world first content".PvP and PvE are two different games with two different skillsets. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about yet you spew an incessantly large amount of garbage onto this forum. Also, I'm not your friend. I would never befriend such a fucking tool.
  1. Malikath's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    PVP is where it's at and PVE is just a walk in the park for any skilled PVP player.
    lmao, i got glad in the first season, WoW's PvP has never been hard or skillful because the game has never been balanced.
    that's why no one ever gave a shit about it.
  1. Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post

    The Classic mentality is about enjoying an mmo in a world that you can escape in for hours on end. Something retail will never have again.
    .
    Only, that's exactly what the vast majority does when they play Retail, what with only a small percentage ever playing at a level that requires organized teams. There are stories every week of players using retail as a means of escape, as medicine for the soul, as a way of meeting others without feeling social anxiety etc. Yet there are delusional people like you out there spewing shit that's not anchored in any sort of fact.

    Your bias doesn't alter reality. And APES being able to easily take world firsts on live is laughable at best. They got world second first against content they've repeated hundreds of times upon entering the raid, against raid mechanics below LFR in complexity with classes that you can optimize by pressing 2 buttons.

    It's not about "they're too smart to do it", it's about them not being able to, not wanting to, and thus not trying. Unlike all the guilds attempting World First every new tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjay View Post
    There is no such thing as "world first content".PvP and PvE are two different games with two different skillsets. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about yet you spew an incessantly large amount of garbage onto this forum. Also, I'm not your friend. I would never befriend such a fucking tool.
    Truth.

    It's pretty clear he has no grasp nor experience from anything he's trying to paint as easy. The whole "I play Classic cuz Retail's too repetitive!!"-line alone is just laughable in its complete lack of logical reasoning. Feels before reals-sort of thing. Tbf, most of the Classic zealots tend to adhere to that crap.
  1. therealbowser's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by toffmcsoft View Post
    The Classic mentality is about enjoying an mmo in a world that you can escape in for hours on end. Something retail will never have again.
    Uh... what? I get that you think retail sucks, and it has severe problems, but this is one "problem" WoW has never really had. It's easier to waste hours in retail than classic, even, because there are more things you can get roped into doing that take hours and hours... and you can do them all over again every day.

    I think your unbridled hatred of modern world of warcraft has blown over into making stuff up to try and support your case. It's not necessary. Most people are already aware BFA is pretty boring right now and needs serious help. I am not even going to attempt explaining that your experience is not identical to everyone else's, because that would probably blow your mind.

    The simple fact is that classic appeals to players that want to play classic, and "retail" appeals to people who want to play modern WoW. The crazy thing is that there are a lot of people who are playing both, and many, many more who are playing neither.

    Personally I loved WotLK and TBC; classic was just tedious, and I don't really miss it. I am likewise bored with "retail" and don't plan on coming back unless there are significant changes. Neither form of WoW interests me right now, but I'd be more likely to try classic for a month or two than get back into Battle for Azeroth. It would be closer to being fun for me than BFA, which is grinding for the sake of grinding, as opposed to classic where everything is just feeling needlessly tedious, but at least is about playing the game for the sake of playing it.

    Just my two copper, not that it's going to matter much here.
  1. PelinalWhitestrake's Avatar
    Besides Queen of REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE still seething because of classic, APES beating Method(with the bonus of humiliating PreachGaming) and even this thread, is there ANY reason to keep this thread open?

    its literally a minefield of reports and inflated egos at this rate.
  1. Valkaneer's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Crillam View Post
    Or maybe, just maybe... Ppl sucked during vanilla. Vanilla is easy compared to todays standards and I am pretty sure they could have done this if we had the old talents system, sure a few more wipes maybe but there are also like 3 days left to farm the gear and lvl up.
    People didn't suck in Vanilla, they were some of if not the best players ever to play the game. They just didn't have any information to go off of and most were doing these raids with nearly zero addons, no Big Wigs, and not even a threat meter at first. Try doing Lucifron without any addons and never had read a guide on how to do it. It took a long time for Landsoul to develop his spreadsheet. Not that someone like you knows who Landsoul was. Elitist jerks was the first site that you could actually trust and developed the first real guides that were solid. You're basically saying Leonardo da Vinci was a moron because some high school kid with a computer has more information at his fingertips in today's world. You're just another bloke trying to puff himself up as something great by trashing those that did the heavy lifting so that you could have it easy with all that information now at your fingertips.

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