Shadowlands Launch Gearing Guide

Originally Posted by Greyfang

To be fair, if this is the boss I'm thinking, Wowhead page is full of people having trouble with it. I was able to kill it first try with crappy powers but I'm BM hunter so it shouldnt count too much.

https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/npc=...synod#comments

It does seem to be a bit overtuned. At the very least the run is super easy before getting to the boss so the difficulty is unexpected.

yeah, talking with some ppl on trade chat sad that casters have alot of difficult with this boss, even mages with spell steal and interrupt have a real hard time with him

Originally Posted by Redroniksre

Wait so the boss is random too? Well if anyone gets that stupid Gargoyle man good luck cause he is broken as hell with his buffs.

Yep, he crushed me over and over. Went in again, got an op power(20% hp taken on hit, proc chance) got the lich, melted, I win.

I'm curious how people will take this. The whole thing is on well-calculated rails for the first few weeks of course, but a few months down the line the changes should start to sink in for even the dumbest of sheep.

Originally Posted by LuckyOne

I'm glad that they finally decided to have world-bosses and Mythic+ runs not give out heroic-raid levels of gear (even if they're not that far behind, which is fine)

Organised heroic and mythic raiding will always take more effort than completing a +10/15 key, not necessarily more skill to be fair, and a LOT more effort than a "world-boss" you could also call loot-pinata, thus the rewards should reflect that.

"Organised heroic" is an oxymoron. You can bring whoever you want to heroic in pretty much any numbers at any time and clear it, finding 5 players who are good enough to clear a 15 on time is much harder, i.e "more effort" in your strange, illogical reward system. Heroic will be pugged the moment it releases because it's absurdly easy content.

Originally Posted by Doffen

Yep, he crushed me over and over. Went in again, got an op power(20% hp taken on hit, proc chance) got the lich, melted, I win.

Just did the same thing, got the ghost man and killed him before the 1.5min invuln was even finished. That gargoyle man is just way overtuned.

Originally Posted by Nzx

"Organised heroic" is an oxymoron. You can bring whoever you want to heroic in pretty much any numbers at any time and clear it, finding 5 players who are good enough to clear a 15 on time is much harder, i.e "more effort" in your strange, illogical reward system. Heroic will be pugged the moment it releases because it's absurdly easy content.

I doubt we are playing the same game.

Originally Posted by Nzx

"Organised heroic" is an oxymoron. You can bring whoever you want to heroic in pretty much any numbers at any time and clear it, finding 5 players who are good enough to clear a 15 on time is much harder, i.e "more effort" in your strange, illogical reward system. Heroic will be pugged the moment it releases because it's absurdly easy content.

Less than 5% of the playerbase clears heroic in the first week. Heroic is easy weeks/months later when people overgear it.

Originally Posted by ThiagoTorres

I have 177 ilvl and last boss os layer 3 is simply impossible to kill. First week we can do 8 layer but at 3 the majority of ppl dont pass. Boss gandalf

Well, if you struggle with 177ilvl then what are you doing? I did both Layer 3's with 134 ilvl. Way to easy imo

Originally Posted by LuckyOne

I doubt we are playing the same game.

If you think Heroic requires "organisation" then yes, we absolutely are playing different games. The current version of "Heroic" is the difficulty level previous occupied by Normal up until the creation of the LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic paradigm. It's the mode for the "average" skill level player, Normal for the below average, and LFR for turning your brain off and playing on Peaceful. I'm sorry, but Heroic is just not even close to the difficulty level of a +15 key unless you're afking every pull for bloodlust and cooldowns.

Originally Posted by OrcsRLame

Less than 5% of the playerbase clears heroic in the first week. Heroic is easy weeks/months later when people overgear it.

I mean... Thanks for the arbitrary stat you pulled out of nowhere, I guess. Regardless, "5% of the playerbase" is a meaningless metric when the vast majority of players don't even attempt to raid. I suspect that if you removing gold-boosting from the equation, the number of players who time every dungeon on a +15 by the end of a patch is infinitely smaller than the number of people who clear Heroic, simply because +15s in time are objectively more difficult from a skill perspective than Heroic raiding is.

Originally Posted by Nzx

If you think Heroic requires "organisation" then yes, we absolutely are playing different games. The current version of "Heroic" is the difficulty level previous occupied by Normal up until the creation of the LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic paradigm. It's the mode for the "average" skill level player, Normal for the below average, and LFR for turning your brain off and playing on Peaceful. I'm sorry, but Heroic is just not even close to the difficulty level of a +15 key unless you're afking every pull for bloodlust and cooldowns.




I mean... Thanks for the arbitrary stat you pulled out of nowhere, I guess. Regardless, "5% of the playerbase" is a meaningless metric when the vast majority of players don't even attempt to raid. I suspect that if you removing gold-boosting from the equation, the number of players who time every dungeon on a +15 by the end of a patch is infinitely smaller than the number of people who clear Heroic, simply because +15s in time are objectively more difficult from a skill perspective than Heroic raiding is.

It's not from nowhere, it's from wowprogress. Wowprogress keeps track of every first kill for heroic and mythic for every raid tier since Ulduar. And the 5% of the playerbase is actually 5% of wowprogress uploads, which is much less than 5% of the playerbase, but that's not the point. So if I look at wowprogress I see 20625 guilds killed heroic Wrathion and the first kill of heroic N'Zoth was on Jan 22 2020. A little bit of scrolling later and we see 1280 guilds killed him before Jan 29th, the first reset of Ny'alotha. So about 6%. This of course does not count people that failed to upload a heroic guild, such as guilds that find normal challenging or guilds that failed on Wrathion.

This is of course not perfect data.

If you want to talk end of patch stuff, according to dataforazeroth, 62% of people got BFA keystone master and 58% of people got AOTC for N'Zoth.

Speaking anecdotally, I have been in lots of different kinds of guilds from serious mythic progression guilds to more casual social guilds that raid normal for fun and just dip their toes into heroic. I have not generally seen people that struggle with the last boss on heroic, (Which is usually a fair bit harder than the first 3 on mythic.) struggle with timing +15s or +10s, (depending on what is required for keystone master in that patch.) and there's no particular reason to believe that A, gold boosting has a substantial impact on the number of people able to complete this content or that B m+ boosts are bought at significantly higher rates than heroic raid boosts.

I would also say that heroic and +15s are not really meant for average skilled players. I would say that LFR and heroic dungeons are meant for average players, M0s low m+ and normal is meant for above average players, regular max m+, (10/15) and heroic is meant for extremely skilled players and beyond regular max m+ and mythic raiding are meant for the most skilled players.

Originally Posted by Lurker1

Why do you care about hes learning to play you don't even play World of Warcraft anymore let it go.

You seem to have me confused with someone else, princess. Did you know it's possible for more than one user to have the same avatar photo? Please develop some brain cells.

I just wanted to say that watching "OrcsRLame" destroy "Nzx" with logical data was amazing. I love watching ignorant trolls getting pwnd.

Originally Posted by RyusekiV2

You seem to have me confused with someone else, princess. Did you know it's possible for more than one user to have the same avatar photo? Please develop some brain cells.

Nah my brain cells are just fine move on already World of Warcraft doesn't need you anymore.

I was going to unpack your entire comment and argue the whole thing piece by piece but it became a waste of time the moment I read this.

Originally Posted by OrcsRLame

If you want to talk end of patch stuff, according to dataforazeroth, 62% of people got BFA keystone master and 58% of people got AOTC for N'Zoth.

You don't read the achievements at best, or you don't even understand the data you're quoting at worst. The 62% figure is Keymaster, aka literally completing the dungeon with any key whatsoever. BFA KSM for season 4 AKA Ny'alotha was only achieved by 33% of players, roughly half the number of people who got AoTC in that season. Using your own data, it's blatantly evident that clearing all +15s in time is at least twice as difficult as Heroic raiding, which pretty much everyone already knew, but I'm glad I could easily prove it to you.

By the way, the stats for other seasons are even worse - one percent of players achieved KSM in S1 vs 28% for AOTC G'huun, for example. You are objectively, demonstrably wrong.

Originally Posted by OrcsRLame

heroic is meant for extremely skilled players

Okay, yeah, we're playing two very different games. Do you play blindfolded with one hand tied behind your back and your sound turned off? That's literally the only way I could understand you thinking Heroic requires "extreme skill"..

Originally Posted by JustaWarlock

I just wanted to say that watching "OrcsRLame" destroy "Nzx" with logical data was amazing. I love watching ignorant trolls getting pwnd.

Try again, buddy. Pays to check the sources yourself before announcing someone got "pwned".

Originally Posted by Redroniksre

Wait so the boss is random too? Well if anyone gets that stupid Gargoyle man good luck cause he is broken as hell with his buffs.

Some are definetly worse, i think the worst one i encountered on beta was a big dog that summoned little kilrog-eyes that spread out and needed to be killed really fast else the boss healed up.

After a few frustrating minutes i just gave up and exited the place.

Originally Posted by Xentronium

It looks like most people in this thread don't know enough about how Torghast works. Everyone's run is different. The end boss is a dps race.

Yep, you got screwed on RNG. I had a boss in layer 2 that had 100k more hp than one on layer 3, and if the RNG gods don't give you juicy damage buffs with the RNG run you'll have a bad time with it. You can try the other wing and get a far easier boss then come back and get a completely different run.

not really its not.

take a tank with you and you wont even notice last boss exist

did it as tank and never dropped below 90% of my health on last boss on L3s while doing it solo - which meant fight dragged on for like 2+ minutes.

people stop playing mmorpgs solo and complaining your experience suck .

how many of you did thorgast in 5 man 177 itlv group ? i bet that version was like "lol easy "

Originally Posted by OrcsRLame

It's not from nowhere, it's from wowprogress. Wowprogress keeps track of every first kill for heroic and mythic for every raid tier since Ulduar. And the 5% of the playerbase is actually 5% of wowprogress uploads, which is much less than 5% of the playerbase, but that's not the point. So if I look at wowprogress I see 20625 guilds killed heroic Wrathion and the first kill of heroic N'Zoth was on Jan 22 2020. A little bit of scrolling later and we see 1280 guilds killed him before Jan 29th, the first reset of Ny'alotha. So about 6%. This of course does not count people that failed to upload a heroic guild, such as guilds that find normal challenging or guilds that failed on Wrathion.

This is of course not perfect data.

If you want to talk end of patch stuff, according to dataforazeroth, 62% of people got BFA keystone master and 58% of people got AOTC for N'Zoth.

Speaking anecdotally, I have been in lots of different kinds of guilds from serious mythic progression guilds to more casual social guilds that raid normal for fun and just dip their toes into heroic. I have not generally seen people that struggle with the last boss on heroic, (Which is usually a fair bit harder than the first 3 on mythic.) struggle with timing +15s or +10s, (depending on what is required for keystone master in that patch.) and there's no particular reason to believe that A, gold boosting has a substantial impact on the number of people able to complete this content or that B m+ boosts are bought at significantly higher rates than heroic raid boosts.

I would also say that heroic and +15s are not really meant for average skilled players. I would say that LFR and heroic dungeons are meant for average players, M0s low m+ and normal is meant for above average players, regular max m+, (10/15) and heroic is meant for extremely skilled players and beyond regular max m+ and mythic raiding are meant for the most skilled players.

Going about metrics is hard because you need to read them correctly, i have no idea for example in both directions how popular HC raiding to 10/15 loot cap m+ is.

What i have an idea about is what i did and what my experiences where for the last 4 years in Legion and Bfa, i've been raiding in a casual 2 night aotc guild that would usually need 3-4 weeks for HC until we dabbled in some mythic bosses, meanwhile the moment the mythic raid was out we where able to get a lootcap mythic+ for the weekly chest done in time, everytime.

We did this in guildgroups of 5 usually but when someone was a miss getting someone random in with some brains thanks to r.io was no problem either.

Also just mechanicaly speaking your argument doesn't make sense to me.. yeah fine, you have the affixes of the week and are under time pressure, but we never had to do overwhelmingly hard pulls and most dungeons bosses are easy anyways to ger it in time.

So again, are we playing the same game especially early when the raid is out? That HC pugs are common a few weeks in may be, but not at the start to my experience.

Myhtic+ 15 end chest being below HC level is a freaking slap in the face for any M+ player. I understand it cannot be on par with mythic raiding, but beeing up to 13 ilvls below HC is disgustingly bad design.

All you can do now is progressing via your weekly chest while the actual dungeon loot is pretty much useless after a few weeks. This will not work out for the majority of the more casual M+ players, I can already tell you.

The following will happen: M+ now will have no core players to progress through the ranks. Entry level M+ to gear up alts will be done as usually, then we might face a large gap between M+ ~5 and 14. On the higher end the actual M+ fanbase that focuses on pushing keys will remain (which are coincidently also the players that raid mythic and thus do not care about the loot aspect of the final chest anyway)
Conclusion: M+ only players will have considerable worse gear than raiders and are now forced to play mythic raid to be accepted to high M+ keys

Originally Posted by Nzx

I was going to unpack your entire comment and argue the whole thing piece by piece but it became a waste of time the moment I read this.



You don't read the achievements at best, or you don't even understand the data you're quoting at worst. The 62% figure is Keymaster, aka literally completing the dungeon with any key whatsoever. BFA KSM for season 4 AKA Ny'alotha was only achieved by 33% of players, roughly half the number of people who got AoTC in that season. Using your own data, it's blatantly evident that clearing all +15s in time is at least twice as difficult as Heroic raiding, which pretty much everyone already knew, but I'm glad I could easily prove it to you.

By the way, the stats for other seasons are even worse - one percent of players achieved KSM in S1 vs 28% for AOTC G'huun, for example. You are objectively, demonstrably wrong.



Okay, yeah, we're playing two very different games. Do you play blindfolded with one hand tied behind your back and your sound turned off? That's literally the only way I could understand you thinking Heroic requires "extreme skill"..



Try again, buddy. Pays to check the sources yourself before announcing someone got "pwned".

Rogue who gets told when to use shroud and now thinks M+15s are the pinnacle of skill moment

people don't complete Keystone Master as much as AOTC because there's no mount, not because it's difficult, you can literally 4man all of that content, quit trying to flex lmao

Originally Posted by h8ryan

Rogue who gets told when to use shroud and now thinks M+15s are the pinnacle of skill moment

people don't complete Keystone Master as much as AOTC because there's no mount, not because it's difficult, you can literally 4man all of that content, quit trying to flex lmao

The fuck are you talking about lmao S4 KSM literally gives a mount. Why are people on this forum so insistent on talking shit when they're objectively wrong