PCGamer Ion Hazzikostas Interview - More can be Done to Make Dungeon/Raids Satisfying when not Getting Desired Loot
PCGamer recently posted a small interview with Ion Hazzikostas about Shadowlands. It didn't reveal much new information, but the most noteworthy aspect was Ion mentioning that more can be done to make dungeons and raids feel satisfying even when not getting a specific piece of loot that run. Click the banner to read the whole article, and here are some highlights:



  • The article mentions more content later this spring, but it seems to be speculative and not certain as it isn't a quote from Ion.
  • Ion says Blizzard has some big plans for the story of this expansion and is already working on addressing some big points of player feedback.
  • Ion says Blizzard is thrilled to tell epic stories that interconnect the different powers of the Shadowlands, heroes and villains of Azeroth, and the inner workings of Death itself.
  • The team is listening closely to the community as they look to shape future updates.
  • When it comes to PvP itemization specifically, they're really happy with how that's playing out.
  • Ion thinks they can do more to make the experience of running dungeons and raids feel more satisfying when you don't get a specific item you were hoping for.
  • Balance remains an ongoing focus, both through "hotfix" adjustments to the live game and through more involved changes to player abilities, and especially new Shadowlands systems like legendary items and covenants, which will come in patches.

New Battle.net Launcher Live Soon
Blizzard recently revealed that the new Blizzard launcher that has been in beta for quite some time will be going live soon. Click here to see their official post. This new version includes:

  • Improved navigation and layout—you can now favorite your games and arrange them for ease of access
  • A much more expansive layout for news and game content in full-page view
  • A revamped social pane so you can better see your friends and what they’re up to on each game tab
  • Major accessibility improvements—they’ve added the ability to navigate most of the app with your keyboard, increased our screen reader support, and improved the color contrast
  • A new, consolidated notifications hub for messages and download status




Dark Legacy Comics #756
DLC #756 has been released!

This article was originally published in forum thread: PCGamer Ion Interview - Make Dungeon/Raids Satisfying, New Battle.net Launcher started by Stoy View original post
Comments 142 Comments
  1. Scrod's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by TickTickTick View Post
    I'm still waiting for them to address the question: "Why even add so many legendaries?"

    What is even the point of each spec having multiple choices, if we can all agree that in practice there's no choice at all? One legendary will always be better than the rest (if even a bit) and it will always be a go-to. Then they implemented a limit to 1 legendary only. To me it feels even more underwhelming and useless system than conduits for specs you'll never be playing anyway. Because legendary powers were made to be this "epic power" that you must search the Shadowlands for, and then a powerful, ancient craftsman can infuse your item with this great power. In practice, some powers are easier to find than others, some powers can be bought from covenants (literal wtf. I'm here saving your world and you're telling me I first need to complete these stupid tasks 100 times until you find me worthy enough? Such power should never be gated behind reputation). And when you're done getting the most powerful one for your spec, you don't care about the rest. At all. You forget about Runecarver. Soul Ash, and with it Torghast, becomes utterly useless.

    Yes, maybe they are going to increase the legendary limit later. Who cares, I'm not playing in the future, I'm playing now. Instead of cluttering this system with multiple useless choices, they should have made just one legendary for each spec or class and grant it in some epic questline.

    It's really hard to believe there were many people, with long game dev experience, who thought it was a good idea.
    The balancing is hilarious too. Look at the following comments on from wowhead for Brewmaster monks:

    Shaohao's Might: "Brutally undertuned".
    Fatal Touch: "Literally worthless for some raid fights"
    Invoker's Delight: "It's a big stat bonus, but the cooldown is long, the buff is short, and the stat is not great. Pass."
    Roll out: "This bonus is worthless."
    Escape from reality: "The extra mobility granted by this is not necessary.
    Vitality Sacrifice: "This is awful."
    Sephuz's Proclamation: "This is significantly weaker than the Legion Sephuz's Secret. Pass."
    Echo of Eonar: "This was good when it was an always-on passive. They killed it"

    They basically say that there are two good legendaries, a third that might be useful for super high end mythic plus, and that every other one is a waste of soul ash. Amazing.
  1. ZazuuPriest's Avatar
    Ion: So we destroyed loot drops and our players will to play by removing a system that didnt need to be removed (warforge/titanforge) and making loot much less common.
    Ion: So in order to fix this system that we broke we will introduce, at a later date (maybe) a BRAND NEW** system to fix the system we broke allll the way back when we removed badge gear.
    Ion: It will not be a badge/token gear system though, something new.. better... we listen to you
  1. det's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimalkin of Old View Post
    I always wonder what kind of community Hazzikostas listens to
    Agree.

    Whatever goes as a "community" - the never speak with one voice. NEVER.

    But maybe that is the big thing. You listen to all these voices in the community like:

    -gearing is too fast
    -gearing is too slow
    -I want flying now
    -flying needs to be removed
    -covenants suck as they are
    -covenants are fine
    -feature xyz is the worst ever for me
    -feature xyz works fine for me


    etc...

    ...and they you just pick whatever....and you instantly listened to "the community". Come to think of it the "community" in relation to games is the word that makes me instantly vomit and I hate it more than life itself.
  1. Erous's Avatar
    Hard for me to believe any words from Ion based on some of the disjointed responses received during BfA
  1. det's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    Really hope they just bring back badges, most people were satisfied with the gearing system in WOTLK and everything since has been worse.
    Citation needed.

    But i add one of my own: "Most people were satisfied with the gearing system in Vanilla and everything since has been worse"

    Do I have a source? Yeah..it is me talking out of my behind. The game was handed to me "as is" and I just played it as it was.

    Try to look closely at the WotLK badge system and it mirrors complaints in SL of "too many systems and currencies"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    The balancing is hilarious too. Look at the following comments on from wowhead for Brewmaster monks:

    Shaohao's Might: "Brutally undertuned".
    Fatal Touch: "Literally worthless for some raid fights"
    Invoker's Delight: "It's a big stat bonus, but the cooldown is long, the buff is short, and the stat is not great. Pass."
    Roll out: "This bonus is worthless."
    Escape from reality: "The extra mobility granted by this is not necessary.
    Vitality Sacrifice: "This is awful."
    Sephuz's Proclamation: "This is significantly weaker than the Legion Sephuz's Secret. Pass."
    Echo of Eonar: "This was good when it was an always-on passive. They killed it"

    They basically say that there are two good legendaries, a third that might be useful for super high end mythic plus, and that every other one is a waste of soul ash. Amazing.
    Are these people I should be aware of because they play on a certain level of skill that their comments should be considered? Never heard of Shaohao's Might, Fatal Touch, Invoker's Delight, Roll out, etc...but maybe they are pillars in the pve or pvp community that they input is valuable.

    Comments like "This is awful" are certainly something that I would consider to be helpful feedback if I was a dev. I mean..I find anything that doesn't let me one-shot any opponent in pvp or pve "awful"...so I guess they have a point.
  1. Logwyn's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by brigada View Post
    "Ion thinks they can do more to make the experience of running dungeons and raids feel more satisfying when you don't get a specific item you were hoping for."

    A SPECIFIC item? Ive done two back-to-back 10/10 HCs without ANY loot at all that's just ridiculous. How about 7x m10's without any loot?

    I get that they want to make getting loot feeling more rewarding and epic and what not but this is bs
    I stopped running M+ as it isn't worth the effort or time to get pretty much nothing.
    I've switched to leveling alts and getting them through the 3 others for the zones story lines.
    I've tried to run an alt through Torghast to get BiS memory and ash for the lengedary. I got to layer 3.. pulled two trash packs then hearthed out. Too bored.

    I like the story, hate the time gating, and no loot drops.
  1. Scrod's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Are these people I should be aware of because they play on a certain level of skill that their comments should be considered? Never heard of Shaohao's Might, Fatal Touch, Invoker's Delight, Roll out, etc...but maybe they are pillars in the pve or pvp community that they input is valuable.

    Comments like "This is awful" are certainly something that I would consider to be helpful feedback if I was a dev. I mean..I find anything that doesn't let me one-shot any opponent in pvp or pve "awful"...so I guess they have a point.
    They are written in the guide by the person selected to write the brewmaster guide on wowhead. The comments are accurate.

    Oh and “Shaohao’s Might” etc. are the names of the legendaries lol
  1. chiddie's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    But the low amount of anima in dungeons and raid is a hot topic. And to increase the amount significantly might be on the block for an incentive to do them and it will be some sort of a no loot reward.

    Your analogy is maybe a right one for you(and I like it) but to me that analogy does not work because I think gearing is spot on atm.

    Increasing the amount of anima you get is a good contender for what the devs might have in mind. As an example, I don't want valor vendor with gear as good as what you get from raid and m+. As catch up, with few ilvl behind, fine, but nothing more than that. If we do get some sort of vendor however, I bet the currency will be:

    Anima
    It’s a hot topic but it’s also another completely different one.

    I won’t be happier if I’ll receive the same (zero) amount of loot but 350 anima instead of 35, I cannot buy loot with anima. I’m not doing M+ for anima (no one is, of course).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Agree.

    Whatever goes as a "community" - the never speak with one voice. NEVER.

    But maybe that is the big thing. You listen to all these voices in the community like:

    -gearing is too fast
    -gearing is too slow
    -I want flying now
    -flying needs to be removed
    -covenants suck as they are
    -covenants are fine
    -feature xyz is the worst ever for me
    -feature xyz works fine for me


    etc...

    ...and they you just pick whatever....and you instantly listened to "the community". Come to think of it the "community" in relation to games is the word that makes me instantly vomit and I hate it more than life itself.
    Finding a good balance in a 200% gear based mmorpg like WoW is, is a difficult task.

    Sometimes I wonder if they would again take this gear > all road since day one, if they could start from scratch again.
  1. Doffen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    It’s a hot topic but it’s also another completely different one.

    I won’t be happier if I’ll receive the same (zero) amount of loot but 350 anima instead of 35, I cannot buy loot with anima. I’m not doing M+ for anima (no one is, of course).
    It is the same topic entirely, because what was said is that they don't want you to do dungeons and be disappointed when you don't get loot. That does not mean they talk about increasing the amount of loot, but they want to make it more satisfying to do them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    A vendor with gear as good as you get from raid and m+ is exactly what this game needs.
    Strong disagree. It is not what the game needs since it now has close to perfect design when it comes to loot.

    A catch up is okay, but having the game going vendor mode is going to make the game really boring. Going into dungeons and raids knowing that you will get what you want in the end anyway is not really what the genre MMORPG needs. It breaks ANY immersion that gearing up has to offer. A PvP vendor is fine because you can't target items through doing Battlegrounds and Arenas, while for PvE you can actually do that. That boss drops that, I'll go and do that.

    Imo.
  1. chiddie's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    It is the same topic entirely, because what was said is that they don't want you to do dungeons and be disappointed when you don't get loot. That does not mean they talk about increasing the amount of loot, but they want to make it more satisfying to do them.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Strong disagree. It is not what the game needs since it now has close to perfect design when it comes to loot.

    A catch up is okay, but having the game going vendor mode is going to make the game really boring. Going into dungeons and raids knowing that you will get what you want in the end anyway is not really what the genre MMORPG needs. It breaks ANY immersion that gearing up has to offer. A PvP vendor is fine because you can't target items through doing Battlegrounds and Arenas, while for PvE you can actually do that. That boss drops that, I'll go and do that.

    Imo.
    Since you do m+ basically for the loot, whatever reward is not loot related it won’t make players “satisfied”.

    You like the actual loot management, I don’t, neither of us can do much about this.
  1. Doffen's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Since you do m+ basically for the loot, whatever reward is not loot related it won’t make players “satisfied”.

    You like the actual loot management, I don’t, neither of us can do much about this.
    That is true, we'll see what they come up with
  1. rrayy's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerisot View Post
    Ion's interviews always crack me up, especially when he talks about listening to the community.

    If that was true, Conduits wouldn't be so awful.
    Listening does not = caving to your every demand. Listening means they merely hear what everyone has to say and use it as part of the decision making process. You thinking something is awful does not mean it actually is as other players and devs disagree with you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Agree.

    Whatever goes as a "community" - the never speak with one voice. NEVER.

    But maybe that is the big thing. You listen to all these voices in the community like:

    -gearing is too fast
    -gearing is too slow
    -I want flying now
    -flying needs to be removed
    -covenants suck as they are
    -covenants are fine
    -feature xyz is the worst ever for me
    -feature xyz works fine for me


    etc...

    ...and they you just pick whatever....and you instantly listened to "the community". Come to think of it the "community" in relation to games is the word that makes me instantly vomit and I hate it more than life itself.
    People need to stop equating listening with "Give me everything I want" because that isn't what listening is. Listening is merely hearing all the feedback and choosing the course of action that they think pleases the most people. Caving to message board demands will never lead to pleasing the most people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    is ion and his management team just a bunch of pure idiots?!

    "Ion thinks they can do more to make the experience of running dungeons and raids feel more satisfying when you don't get a specific item you were hoping for."

    JUST GIVE US THE LOOT WE EARNED! if we go in to a 4 boss dungeon and only get 1 or 2 pieces, that isn't proper distribution. it should be one piece of loot PER BOSS that is given at the end (and no, i don't mean one piece per boss for each person). and raise the amount of loot from raids from 3 pieces per 20 people back to 5 pieces per 20 people. it's so freaking simple! STOP TRYING TO REMAKE THE WHEEL EVERY FREAKING TIME!
    This is player entitlement at it's worst. you did not earn loot. You earned a chance at getting loot. BIG difference. IF it instantly gave you loot, you would run each dungeon once and never again. What you want is TERRIBLE design.
  1. Paperfox's Avatar
    If I recall correctly, Ion became director during the middle of Pandaria. One of the first things he did was to get rid of tokens as he didn't see the value of them.

    Before that people were running dungeons to get the tokens so they could get better gear. After the change, there was no point in running said dungeon.
  1. NickolaiBlayde's Avatar
    but the most noteworthy aspect was Ion mentioning that more can be done to make dungeons and raids feel satisfying even when not getting a specific piece of loot that run.
    Bring back badges. At least then we can work towards a specific piece while waiting for a drop. It would also make heroic dungeons relevant again as a way to get badges instead of immediately dying off as people progress to mythics.
  1. aceperson's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    This is player entitlement at it's worst. you did not earn loot. You earned a chance at getting loot. BIG difference. IF it instantly gave you loot, you would run each dungeon once and never again. What you want is TERRIBLE design.
    i'm not being entitled about this. i'm not saying give us all the loot we want or even shower us in loot like they did in legion and bfa. what i'm saying is we used to kill raid bosses back in wod and before the shower of loot came and we got 2 (around 10 people) -5 (around 25 people) pieces of loot for a kill and now we get 3 per 20 and we used to get one item per boss which is now reduced to 2 per 3-5 bosses if you time a key or 1 per 3-5 bosses if you don't. we ARE earning the chances at loot that we aren't getting. you got hung up on the literal meaning of my phrasing instead of taking the context into account.
  1. AtomR's Avatar
    So with daily questing having no rewards, callings give empty bags of gold, torghast rewards absolutely nothing, anima redirection rewards nothing, command table rewards nothing, queen's conservatory (or whatever other covenants have) rewards nothing and they think the problem is with Dungeons/Raids rewards?
  1. Kumorii's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by AtomR View Post
    So with daily questing having no rewards, callings give empty bags of gold, torghast rewards absolutely nothing, anima redirection rewards nothing, command table rewards nothing, queen's conservatory (or whatever other covenants have) rewards nothing and they think the problem is with Dungeons/Raids rewards?
    What do you want conservatory to give us? Because atm it gives us materials, pets, cosmetics and mounts with no effort.

    Should it give power as in gear? Then it will be either low ilvl gear which is useless or it will become "mandatory" if the gear is valid.
  1. Unlimited Power's Avatar
    I'd love either a Valor point vendor or Valor point ilvl upgrades like we had in MoP and WoD. Have each item dropped in raids and dungeons be able to be upgraded up to 2 times for a max of 7 ilvls, IE from 200->203->207 or 207-210-213 etc.

    If Blizzard wants the absolute ilvl cap to remain at 233 they can just prevent loot from generals and denathius Mthic from being upgraded.

    It'll also serve as a soft nerf to content as people upgrade their gear over time. But upgrades should be limited, so make each upgrade cost like 250 Valor with a weekly cap of 500 so you can only fully upgrade 1 item every week.

    Additionally it'll serve as an incentive to run LFR or heroic dungeons for people who are already outgearing content if they make it a reward for using the group finder.
  1. det's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Listening does not = caving to your every demand. Listening means they merely hear what everyone has to say and use it as part of the decision making process. You thinking something is awful does not mean it actually is as other players and devs disagree with you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    People need to stop equating listening with "Give me everything I want" because that isn't what listening is. Listening is merely hearing all the feedback and choosing the course of action that they think pleases the most people. Caving to message board demands will never lead to pleasing the most people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This is player entitlement at it's worst. you did not earn loot. You earned a chance at getting loot. BIG difference. IF it instantly gave you loot, you would run each dungeon once and never again. What you want is TERRIBLE design.
    Very much agreed. Speaking of terrible design, apparently the old Blizzard of Vanilla alpha etc made BRM so big (and wanted it even bigger) because they actually thought people would run a dungeon only once.

    How different WoW would be if that concept stuck. 5 man environments being larger than raids. Well...they certaily were prettier and better done than that cave we got for our first raid (and the second raid)
  1. Soon-TM's Avatar
    My sub runs out next week, and I'm already fed up with the loot drought. Two weeks of 10/10 N, one week of 6/10 HC and at least 5 M+ runs a week - for nothing, except a headpiece, where I'm already rocking my leggo lul. If it wasn't for vault/pvp gear, I'd have been hard stuck in 180 ilvl or so.

    Honestly, &*#@ this #$&%

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