Sanctum of Domination Raid Finale - Chains of Domination Cinematic

Originally Posted by TriHard

Because Arthas, Illidan and Garrosh all did the things they did by their own free will, Sylv however has been herself since her soul was taken away, all morals and such cast aside, it's kind of hard to comment on her still because they've not wrapped up Shadowlands which is essentially her expansion, so I kinda just have to wait until later and see what happens.
But I'd like to see what Sylvanas is like with her soul returned.

Arthas lost his soul when taking up frostmourn any thing he did past that point can’t be held to him any more then the things sylvanas did hell he arguable has less culpability if sylvanas soul was actually split and she still had half.

Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian

Arthas lost his soul when taking up frostmourn any thing he did past that point can’t be held to him any more then the things sylvanas did hell he arguable has less culpability if sylvanas soul was actually split and she still had half.

except that at the end of the Arthas novel he actively rejects both Ner'zul (the LK) and his own humanity.

I find it hard to side with the idea that Arthas is not responsible for what he did when he actively chose to kill what was his left of his humanity.

Originally Posted by Gorsameth

except that at the end of the Arthas novel he actively rejects both Ner'zul (the LK) and his own humanity.

I find it hard to side with the idea that Arthas is not responsible for what he did when he actively chose to kill what was his left of his humanity.

For all we know the mind scape at the end of the novel is within frostmourn/the helm and the arthas in charge is him soulless with kid arthas being his soul meaning it wasn’t part of him but was a distinct entity like ner’zhul.

What we do know for sure is he lost his soul when taking up frostmourn this is stated by every source ever to depict the event.

So if sylvanas isn’t capable because she had half a soul then neither Is post frostmourn arthas who lost all of his soul.

Originally Posted by Nachturnal

Is there really a partnership when you're doing the bidding of an all-powerful being that rules the realm of death akin to a god? I don't know man. She served him up Teldrassil, started a whole war and turned Anduin. Sounds like we're serving.

She isn't doing his bidding. Everything she has done was of her own choosing, not orders from The Jailer. She thought she was working in partnership wth him. She never served him.

Originally Posted by rrayy

She isn't doing his bidding. Everything she has done was of her own choosing, not orders from The Jailer. She thought she was working in partnership wth him. She never served him.

"all will serve death!, except for me, we have a partnership".

Sounds kinda weak.

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Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian

For all we know the mind scape at the end of the novel is within frostmourn/the helm and the arthas in charge is him soulless with kid arthas being his soul meaning it wasn’t part of him but was a distinct entity like ner’zhul.

What we do know for sure is he lost his soul when taking up frostmourn this is stated by every source ever to depict the event.

So if sylvanas isn’t capable because she had half a soul then neither Is post frostmourn arthas who lost all of his soul.

fortunately I don't believe having only half a soul absolves Sylvanas of anything and if the writers go in that direction it just further proves what talentless hacks they are.
'obvious evil person isn't actually evil because they were not themselves' is a pretty low point in writing without a proper setup, which Sylvanas's story lacks and at points actively contridicts.

Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian

For all we know the mind scape at the end of the novel is within frostmourn/the helm and the arthas in charge is him soulless with kid arthas being his soul meaning it wasn’t part of him but was a distinct entity like ner’zhul.

What we do know for sure is he lost his soul when taking up frostmourn this is stated by every source ever to depict the event.

So if sylvanas isn’t capable because she had half a soul then neither Is post frostmourn arthas who lost all of his soul.

As a side, purely because I saw this poster - if you want to see a well- thought out, relateable 'villain' who I actually felt bad for because of the wrong-doings against him - Aurelian Lorgar in First Heretic book = amazing read

WoW has a very long way to getting the fleshed out character bqck stories that some of the warhammer chaps/chapettes have!

In terms of Sylvanas, everyone is acting like this is news to them, but it has been discussed on this forum for a long long time that this redemption arc was coming - predictable story telling at its finest!

Originally Posted by Doombringer

UGH. Literally anyone could have done better.

If you want her to betray him as a story point... why not make it about her bargain being to get her soul back? And he DENIES her that, and it prompts her to TURN AGAINST HIM. He can still shrug off her attack and then say, fine, here's your soul back, but I'm LEAVING YOU HERE WITH THEM. He then abandons her to justice at the hands of her peers instead of her escaping to whatever.

Almost essentially the same but at least motivations are clear??

But no, your twist is that she decides to stop SERVING? She only NOW sees the total parallel of Jailer and Lich King?! You're telling me she was entirely all right with his "plan" up until ... when exactly, when his plan goes accordingly and he essentially wins?

This is terrible. WHAT was Sylvanas' motivation up until now?

Her motivation? She has been very upfront, and clear, about it from the start of the Expac.
She sees the whole system, of life, death, and reincarnation, as twisted, and cruel.
She started seeing it this way back at the end of Wrath, when she suicides after taking out Arthas.
She finds herself, not ending, but in some horrific torture prison.
Then some Val'kyr, who we later learn are Mawsworn Valkyr, formerly Helsworn ones, offer her a way out, they will take her place and protect her. In return she will work to free those trapped there.
Her work to get more forsaken, and her efforts from then, to the start of Legion, they were all to avoid going back there.
At the end of Mists, she even tries to get her sister to come live with her, but that backfires, and she feels so alone.
So she is alone, in pain, without hope, and afraid.
Fast forward to the start of Legion, and we see The Jailer's first bigger steps.
He has his minion, Mueh'zala, to mess with Vol'jin's mind, and trick him into thinking the Loa, as a whole, want Synvanas in charge.
This makes the Banshee queen more along, and burdened with more responsibilities.
This means she is stuck with finding a way to win a war with the Legion, and somehow survive it.
Enter Helya.
Helya makes a bargain with Sylvanas, a bargain which would give Sylvanas the ability to create an unstoppable force to fight the Legion with.
And she asks a favor in return.
We now know that favor was to help out her 'friend' who was 'wrongfully' imprisoned (The Jailer)
Since then she met the Jailer, and saw someone else in a horrific prison, like the one Arthas put her in.
So she saw someone who seemed, based on what she was shown, to be falsely imprisoned, persecuted, and vilified. Just like she experienced herself since her death.
Then said kindred spirit talks about tearing down the unjust system hat causes such horror to be allowed.
In short, she was manipulated, and tricked by someone who spent years grooming her to be a perfect victims for his abuse.

And like the wife of an abusive husband, she kept making mental excuses as to why he 'was really a good guy' and 'does truly care about me'.

We see this exact scenario play out millions of times in thew real world. yet you don't understand it?

Originally Posted by Kremlin KOA

Her motivation? She has been very upfront, and clear, about it from the start of the Expac.
She sees the whole system, of life, death, and reincarnation, as twisted, and cruel.
She started seeing it this way back at the end of Wrath, when she suicides after taking out Arthas.
She finds herself, not ending, but in some horrific torture prison.
Then some Val'kyr, who we later learn are Mawsworn Valkyr, formerly Helsworn ones, offer her a way out, they will take her place and protect her. In return she will work to free those trapped there.
Her work to get more forsaken, and her efforts from then, to the start of Legion, they were all to avoid going back there.
At the end of Mists, she even tries to get her sister to come live with her, but that backfires, and she feels so alone.
So she is alone, in pain, without hope, and afraid.
Fast forward to the start of Legion, and we see The Jailer's first bigger steps.
He has his minion, Mueh'zala, to mess with Vol'jin's mind, and trick him into thinking the Loa, as a whole, want Synvanas in charge.
This makes the Banshee queen more along, and burdened with more responsibilities.
This means she is stuck with finding a way to win a war with the Legion, and somehow survive it.
Enter Helya.
Helya makes a bargain with Sylvanas, a bargain which would give Sylvanas the ability to create an unstoppable force to fight the Legion with.
And she asks a favor in return.
We now know that favor was to help out her 'friend' who was 'wrongfully' imprisoned (The Jailer)
Since then she met the Jailer, and saw someone else in a horrific prison, like the one Arthas put her in.
So she saw someone who seemed, based on what she was shown, to be falsely imprisoned, persecuted, and vilified. Just like she experienced herself since her death.
Then said kindred spirit talks about tearing down the unjust system hat causes such horror to be allowed.
In short, she was manipulated, and tricked by someone who spent years grooming her to be a perfect victims for his abuse.

And like the wife of an abusive husband, she kept making mental excuses as to why he 'was really a good guy' and 'does truly care about me'.

We see this exact scenario play out millions of times in thew real world. yet you don't understand it?

This is a great explanation. This is really good. You should be writing for Blizzard. You understand this better than they do I think.

Originally Posted by Kremlin KOA

Her motivation? She has been very upfront, and clear, about it from the start of the Expac.
She sees the whole system, of life, death, and reincarnation, as twisted, and cruel.
She started seeing it this way back at the end of Wrath, when she suicides after taking out Arthas.
She finds herself, not ending, but in some horrific torture prison.
Then some Val'kyr, who we later learn are Mawsworn Valkyr, formerly Helsworn ones, offer her a way out, they will take her place and protect her. In return she will work to free those trapped there.
Her work to get more forsaken, and her efforts from then, to the start of Legion, they were all to avoid going back there.
At the end of Mists, she even tries to get her sister to come live with her, but that backfires, and she feels so alone.
So she is alone, in pain, without hope, and afraid.
Fast forward to the start of Legion, and we see The Jailer's first bigger steps.
He has his minion, Mueh'zala, to mess with Vol'jin's mind, and trick him into thinking the Loa, as a whole, want Synvanas in charge.
This makes the Banshee queen more along, and burdened with more responsibilities.
This means she is stuck with finding a way to win a war with the Legion, and somehow survive it.
Enter Helya.
Helya makes a bargain with Sylvanas, a bargain which would give Sylvanas the ability to create an unstoppable force to fight the Legion with.
And she asks a favor in return.
We now know that favor was to help out her 'friend' who was 'wrongfully' imprisoned (The Jailer)
Since then she met the Jailer, and saw someone else in a horrific prison, like the one Arthas put her in.
So she saw someone who seemed, based on what she was shown, to be falsely imprisoned, persecuted, and vilified. Just like she experienced herself since her death.
Then said kindred spirit talks about tearing down the unjust system hat causes such horror to be allowed.
In short, she was manipulated, and tricked by someone who spent years grooming her to be a perfect victims for his abuse.

And like the wife of an abusive husband, she kept making mental excuses as to why he 'was really a good guy' and 'does truly care about me'.

We see this exact scenario play out millions of times in thew real world. yet you don't understand it?

This is how I always saw it, I think WOW players offended by this plot are just not savvy to actual real world subtleties imbedded in most of WOW's plot for quite a few years now. (Tell me on silver platter or meh, I don't get it)

Originally Posted by VXBlade

This is how I always saw it, I think WOW players offended by this plot are just not savvy to actual real world subtleties imbedded in most of WOW's plot for quite a few years now. (Tell me on silver platter or meh, I don't get it)

So uhm it all boils down to Sylvanas being a stereotypical woman who will do everything for love?

And THAT IS THE LOLXD that we are just laughing at.
Manipulated my ass, these characters have universe-shattering powers, come on. Shit stinks, period.

Originally Posted by Doffen

I thought it had a deeper meaning


Sorry for buzzing in, but I find "the janitor" amusing af

So easy, so effective!

Well I mean, it is slightly deeper. At the time we most certainly didn't know about the whole arbitor sortinghat of hogwa- shadowlands did its thing and how all the houses worked, and why they did what they did. I believe she thought they would break the conventions of the shadowlands, like the forced servitude, the draining of your anima/memories, to stop being used as fuel for a higher beings purpose. I think in her eyes, the death and destruction she caused within the system she was trying to take down, would in the end, be less harmful overall than them eventually dying and their ultimate destiny ends up with serving the shadowlands or becoming a source of power through their experiences. I think she saw that as much worse. However, freedom in the afterlife to spend eternity with whomever you want ( she hints at that when talking to anduin ) and however you want, seems to be what she was told. But all of that is speculation and what I have gained from keeping up with the story. Her actions will likely be explained in the new book, but we will just have to see.

Originally Posted by Nachturnal

I was speaking about the context of the cinematic as it has evolved within the story to this point. Can we have a discussion in these forums without immediately being snarky? Some other posters added a bit more context and I understood it as it was explained to me. Your post just reads a little angst-y.

You made up bullshit claims and then begin attacking people calling out your bullshit claims.

Sylvanas never 'did the bidding' of the Jailer. She did what she wanted to, because she wanted a better afterlife.

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Originally Posted by Joti

I would really like for you to explain how Bolvar taking the Helm was a betrayal, how "the other races" placed Bolvar on the throne, and how the reasons for Bolvar taking the Helm were contrived.

As the song goes "if you have to ask, you'll never know".

But let's try a really easy one. Bolvar isn't currently sitting on the throne in Icecrown, nor wearing the helm of domination. The (false) claim was that if someone didn't do that, the remaining scourge would overrun the entire planet and wipe out all life on Azeroth.

So was that a lie...
or
... is all life ended on Azeroth?

Originally Posted by bullseyed

As the song goes "if you have to ask, you'll never know".

But let's try a really easy one. Bolvar isn't currently sitting on the throne in Icecrown, nor wearing the helm of domination. The (false) claim was that if someone didn't do that, the remaining scourge would overrun the entire planet and wipe out all life on Azeroth.

So was that a lie...
or
... is all life ended on Azeroth?

Could you provide me with a quote stating that all life on Azeroth would be wiped out if control of the scourge was lost? Terenas stated after the defeat of the LK that "Without its master's command, the restless Scourge will become an even greater threat to this world. Control must be maintained... There must always be... A Lich King." The Shadowlands pre-patch event did have the scourge running rampant due to control being lost. You may not find this a satisfying enough threat, but it's not like it was ignored.
You didn't even try to offer a defense of the other two points, how Bolvar taking the Helm was a betrayal of Sylvanas and the other Forsaken, or how "the other races" had anything to do with him taking up the mantle of the LK. I eagerly await your response.

Originally Posted by Joti

Could you provide me with a quote stating that all life on Azeroth would be wiped out if control of the scourge was lost? Terenas stated after the defeat of the LK that "Without its master's command, the restless Scourge will become an even greater threat to this world. Control must be maintained... There must always be... A Lich King." The Shadowlands pre-patch event did have the scourge running rampant due to control being lost. You may not find this a satisfying enough threat, but it's not like it was ignored.
You didn't even try to offer a defense of the other two points, how Bolvar taking the Helm was a betrayal of Sylvanas and the other Forsaken, or how "the other races" had anything to do with him taking up the mantle of the LK. I eagerly await your response.

If the prepatch event was all that an unbridled Scourge could do, then Terenas was an idiot. Not to mention how it turned the whole "tHeRE mUst ALwAyS Be a L1cH kinG" into even more of a meme.

Originally Posted by Soon-TM

If the prepatch event was all that an unbridled Scourge could do, then Terenas was an idiot. Not to mention how it turned the whole "tHeRE mUst ALwAyS Be a L1cH kinG" into even more of a meme.

Actually there is a Kyrian quest campaign step where you see the scourge invading redrige and sacking lakeshire...

Originally Posted by Engal

Actually there is a Kyrian quest campaign step where you see the scourge invading redrige and sacking lakeshire...

Boo hoo, screw Lakeshire. Now, if we saw the Scourge razing (or at least, severely compromising) idk, Org or Ironforge, it would be more interesting. Imagine if the WC3 Scourge had just conquered e.g. Brill, only to shy out of Lordaeron City.