Discipline jumping ship to Holy - Dawn of the new Bubble Bots

[Revitalize]

And who says it's the best way to help your raid? The meters? Someone here? I honestly want to know how you got that impression. Are people really that bent on keeping their shield spamming habits even if it means switching specs to do it?? Do people actually look at the meters? Do they realize all this does is shift effective HPS from other healers to the one doing the shield spamming? Do you think the other healers on your raid team can't heal well enough and that's why you need to spam shields?? I'm just curious as to why some people seem so intent on maintaining the ability to spam shields regardless of spec.

No, I do it because I realize the incredible niche it fills in raids with my other healers. I honestly don't give a crap about the meters. My guild enourages the niche of pre-shielding raid damage.

[Ultima]

stuff on Holy bubble spam not working in 10 man

I took TiduZ's spec (changed 2 points Tome of Light to Blessed Resilience) and tried it out on Magmaw10N. I had new keybindings for my heals and was playing a different tactic with a different guild (so I felt fairly out of place). According to WoL, I am now ranked 12 as a Holy Priest for healing that fight.

I don't have the best gear, or the best skill by any means. It works. It's lol.

[[-Spiritus-]]

You act like we're all just mindless idiots when were raiding when were using shields. I guess I'm just carried in my raids for being a mindless idiot.

I don't think gotpriest called bubblebots "mindless idiots." Rather that the playstyle they choose is less well-rounded. Does this mean they are bad? No, it just means they prefer a less robust playstyle.

This would be a matter of opinion if the game developers haven't explicitly stated multiple times that healing or DPSing nearly exclusively with one ability is against intended design.

[Yankee100101]

Please just stop complaining about the disc spec. Let them increase the cost of power word shield. The spec has been screwed around with since cata came out. Right now I put out about 11k hps in a heroic and I can promise you it's not because I spam power word shield. I have no problems healing right now and if you do then you are doing it wrong. Right now I have a 32/9/0 spec with atonement and archangel. Likenit our now I am getting amazing results from smite healing and the 15% increase in healing done is something that you can not ignore along with the 20k I am getting for just building my stacks up to use the ability. Pain suppression, barrier, power infusion, hymn of hope you have so many cooldowns that are availible to make you one of the most versitile healers in the game. Right now I am completely satisfied with disc and all your whining is going to do is make the spec so much worse. Whine more about shield spam you will earn a nerf for people who actually play the spec right and don't just spam shield

People say that disc is all about pre shielding and that's the only thing you can do. Yeah I hear people say oh I don't like smite healing but guess what it's a very important part of healing. You get a 15% increase in healing from it and coupled with barrier or even divine hymn it's a very powerful combo. If you don't like disc just go holy please and stop whining about how bad it is before they fuck it up real good.

Another tip is instead of getting that pws cooldown thing get surge of light again if you smite heal along with your normal heals it procs often enough to make a huge difference. I get free 30k crit flash heals just for healing normally. Surge of light plus penance right now is on average giving me a quick 60k heal basically costing me 0 mana. Its not even a huge increase in mana cost if I am readin correctly. Its going up to 33% from the actual 22% increase in mana that it recieved in the patch. Even if it's an additional 33 percent that would only put it at roughly 6k mana. Which is only 6% of a 100k mana pool. Which is a consecutive 15 shields spammed with no spirit whatsoever. Which hopefully pws turns into a oh shit is about to go down button if I don't put this on the tank. Idk I know I have jumped around all over the place but I am just tired of rolling with the punches that are given because people wont stop QQ'ing

[Aliahna]

No, I do it because I realize the incredible niche it fills in raids with my other healers. I honestly don't give a crap about the meters. My guild enourages the niche of pre-shielding raid damage.

I get that. I guess it goes back to something GC said at the end of Wrath. I'll have to paraphase because I don't have the link. They are apparently concerned about the same thing pre-hotfix that they were then when it came to PW;S spam and that is that it is too effective for how incredibly simple it is.

I really do hope that Blizzard figures this out, the roller-coaster ride of Cata is quickly becoming tiresome.

[twopac187]

The best way to help your raid is to keep people alive in such a way that you can continue to do so until the boss reaches 0% HP. All healers work towards this goal as a unified group. Aside from perhaps assigned tank healers, there is usually a fair amount of cross healing going on for the raid even 'accidental' cross healing with smart heals. I would think that every class/spec would be looking at their own toolbox to find the most efficient and effective way to accomplish this goal within the limits that Blizzard has put on us.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the heal meters say, it matters if you were able to accomplish the goal of keeping people alive from 100%-0% boss HP. Shields are just one of the mana healer tools that help to accomplish this goal. I'm not sure where all the hate is coming from, even within the priest community. Sure there are mindless automatons out there that just spam shield blindly, but there are many out there that are also casting a ton of shields in a calculated manner aimed at preventing damage they know will be coming at specific times to specific people. Yes, there needs to be a better way to differentiate those two play styles, as the former is very nearly as effective as the latter. But that doesn't mean that the second priest there 'doesn't think the other healers can handle healing, and decides to spam shields instead'. They are using a tool available to them, buffed by their mastery (again in my mind mastery=design for the spec), to achieve the goal of all healers. They are not sitting behind their keyboard laughing that their heals get used before anyone else can land an effective heal, they are doing what their class is intended to do, absorb incoming damage.

[Revitalize]

I get that. I guess it goes back to something GC said at the end of Wrath. I'll have to paraphase because I don't have the link. They are apparently concerned about the same thing pre-hotfix that they were then when it came to PW;S spam and that is that it is too effective for how incredibly simple it is.

I really do hope that Blizzard figures this out, the roller-coaster ride of Cata is quickly becoming tiresome.

Except it isn't as simple as you think. It's not just "LOLROLLFACEONPW:SHILEDBUTTON" I actually have to predict who will take the damage, when they'll take said damage, I also have to factor what classes have the least survivability and give them priority in shielding. and top them off others with prayer of healing. I then withold using shields till the next predictable damage. Don't see how it's "Too effective" Discipline isn't really a reactive healing spec.

[twopac187]

Except it isn't as simple as you think. It's not just "LOLROLLFACEONPW:SHILEDBUTTON" I actually have to predict who will take the damage, when they'll take said damage, and top them off others with prayer of healing. I then withold using shields till the next predictable damage. Don't see how it's "Too effective" Discipline isn't really a reactive healing spec.

Honestly Revitalize, the problem for Blizzard is that it's too difficult to differentiate disc priest 1 that's just spamming PWS, waiting until WS goes away and spamming again from what you're doing. Sure you and I know the difference, but disc priest 1 is nearly as effective in terms of throughput as you are.

[timmyotoole]

The best way to help your raid is to keep people alive in such a way that you can continue to do so until the boss reaches 0% HP. All healers work towards this goal as a unified group. Aside from perhaps assigned tank healers, there is usually a fair amount of cross healing going on for the raid even 'accidental' cross healing with smart heals. I would think that every class/spec would be looking at their own toolbox to find the most efficient and effective way to accomplish this goal within the limits that Blizzard has put on us.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the heal meters say, it matters if you were able to accomplish the goal of keeping people alive from 100%-0% boss HP. Shields are just one of the mana healer tools that help to accomplish this goal. I'm not sure where all the hate is coming from, even within the priest community. Sure there are mindless automatons out there that just spam shield blindly, but there are many out there that are also casting a ton of shields in a calculated manner aimed at preventing damage they know will be coming at specific times to specific people. Yes, there needs to be a better way to differentiate those two play styles, as the former is very nearly as effective as the latter. But that doesn't mean that the second priest there 'doesn't think the other healers can handle healing, and decides to spam shields instead'. They are using a tool available to them, buffed by their mastery (again in my mind mastery=design for the spec), to achieve the goal of all healers. They are not sitting behind their keyboard laughing that their heals get used before anyone else can land an effective heal, they are doing what their class is intended to do, absorb incoming damage.

I think the annoyance comes because people really do want to play as best as they can. That usually means complexity which generally requires a certain amount of practice and “skill” to pull off. The difficulty of putting out good numbers gives value to being able to put out good numbers, and priests traditionally have more tools and thus theoretically more complexity than most healers.

But when someone can spam one button, not really even spam it that much, and do more healing, that completely devalues skill, complexity, and all the rest. We know its bad, we know its against design, we know it will be fixed, but we also want to be the best. You get torn between what is blatantly retarded but unequivocally effective and what is clearly intended playstyle and skill incarnate but also not as good.

It was bad for Disc because Disc, while a mitigation based tree, shouldn’t be 80% mitigation. It is much much worse for Holy because it completely subverts what Holy is all about. I expect Body & Soul to be moved to Disc eventually or removed, but for a hotfix to remove the mana cost reduction initially.

[Zeuq]

I think PW:S should be used while tank healing as intended, or in raid healing as your High HPS, Low HPM shield [with a 12sec duration]. Then, I think we should have a low HPS, High HPM shield to use for precasting raid damage [with a 15sec duration]. Then, right before, while damage is occurring, or after it has happened, we should use PoH and ProM. Then when neither of those spells are appropriate, we should use Atonement, Penance, Heal, GH, & FH.

I kind of like this idea. Let PWS be a high HPS, low HPM absorb akin to Flash Heal, at which point Soul Warding is no longer necessary because it will not be spammed because it would be mana prohibitive. Add another talent lower in the tree that adds a low HPS, high HPM absorb akin to Heal or Atonement that is spammable, but probably has a cast-time rather than being instant like PWS. To make PoH useful, add PoH to Renewed Hope in some way so people pre-shielded and using a follow-up PoH is effective in topping these people back up, so it's a nice PoH buff for Disc, playing off absorbs, without affecting Holy.

Obviously, that's a rough idea, but it would allow pre-emptive shielding, and if done right, it would encourage doing it before AOEs and following up with PoH. It would also leave PWS as a powerful tool for tank healing and emergencies, but casting it too much would quickly OOM you.

[Revitalize]

Honestly Revitalize, the problem for Blizzard is that it's too difficult to differentiate disc priest 1 that's just spamming PWS, waiting until WS goes away and spamming again from what you're doing. Sure you and I know the difference, but disc priest 1 is nearly as effective in terms of throughput as you are.

And that's stupid. The only reason this was nerfed is because power word: shield will always be over-representative in terms of healing done, no matter what. (Unless it's absorbs 15k like in 4.0.3) And the problem is people being simply too concerned with what the meters represent and not how the healing style is actually played.

---------- Post added 2011-02-17 at 09:51 PM ----------

I kind of like this idea. Let PWS be a high HPS, low HPM absorb akin to Flash Heal, at which point Soul Warding is no longer necessary because it will not be spammed because it would be mana prohibitive. Add another talent lower in the tree that adds a low HPS, high HPM absorb akin to Heal or Atonement that is spammable, but probably has a cast-time rather than being instant like PWS. To make PoH useful, add PoH to Renewed Hope in some way so people pre-shielded and using a follow-up PoH is effective in topping these people back up, so it's a nice PoH buff for Disc, playing off absorbs, without affecting Holy.

Obviously, that's a rough idea, but it would allow pre-emptive shielding, and if done right, it would encourage doing it before AOEs and following up with PoH. It would also leave PWS as a powerful tool for tank healing and emergencies, but casting it too much would quickly OOM you.

Except they'd have to buff Prayer of Healing to even remotely consider that balanced.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Honestly Revitalize, the problem for Blizzard is that it's too difficult to differentiate disc priest 1 that's just spamming PWS, waiting until WS goes away and spamming again from what you're doing. Sure you and I know the difference, but disc priest 1 is nearly as effective in terms of throughput as you are.

Which was the exact problem with WotLK. The nuance in performance between a "good" bubblebot and an "average" bubblebot was negligible and neither were very engaging playstyles, according to the developers.

[Aliahna]

Very well said Timmy. I actually switched to Holy this expansion to get away from bubble spamming. The thought of that being the optimal way to play Holy is extremely disappointing.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Obviously, that's a rough idea, but it would allow pre-emptive shielding, and if done right, it would encourage doing it before AOEs and following up with PoH. It would also leave PWS as a powerful tool for tank healing and emergencies, but casting it too much would quickly OOM you.

Yeah, that would be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, they abandoned that model even before the alpha.

[Irielle]

The amount of venom in this thread is ridiculous. Was this fix a clearly temp one? Yes. Was it the best way to go about things? Clearly not. But for now, it is what it is. I fully understand that the game play is not ideal for those whom wish to be able to fully use your healing arsenal. I really do. But I do not agree with 'I'm going to boycott this healing style because im clearly a much more skilled player and this is beneath me'. Do you not realize that you are hurting your raid? Everything has a way of coming around in the end. Do any of you remember priests in beta? How far have we come since then? Blizzard may not make the smartest choices 100% of the time, but they DO come around. In the meantime...maybe shelf the ego and play to your class's strengths instead of thinking you are above it.

[Ultima]

Very well said Timmy. I actually switched to Holy this expansion to get away from bubble spamming. The thought of that being the optimal way to play Holy is extremely disappointing.

If that's how you really feel, then remember that Holy Priests were and are competitive pre-hotfix. Content (13/13) was cleared with how they were, before and after 4.0.6. So just play that way, if you want.

[Revitalize]

The amount of venom in this thread is ridiculous. Was this fix a clearly temp one? Yes. Was it the best way to go about things? Clearly not. But for now, it is what it is. I fully understand that the game play is not ideal for those whom which to be able to fully use your healing arsenal. I really do. But I do not agree with 'I'm going to boycott this healing style because im clearly a much more skilled player and this is beneath me'. Do you not realize that you are hurting your raid? Everything has a way of coming around in the end. Do any of you remember priests in beta? How far have we come since then? Blizzard may not make the smartest choices 100% of the time, but they DO come around. In the meantime...maybe shelf the ego and play to your class's strengths instead of thinking you are above it.

Do you realize you're hurting your raid playing a now subpar spec with trash throughput? I sure do.

[twopac187]

And that's stupid. The only reason this was nerfed is because power word: shield will always be over-representative in terms of healing done, no matter what. (Unless it's absorbs 15k like in 4.0.3) And the problem is people being simply too concerned with what the meters represent and not how the healing style is actually played.

Precisely. Honestly like it was mentioned a couple posts up, the best solution (and one that Disc Priests I think would be very happy with) is to add some additional shield-type spells that mirror the Heal, Flash Heal, Greater Heal paradigm while retaining the absorb mechanic. It would give us more variety to our spell selection while still allowing us to play the absorb/prevention niche that disc has currently. It would also be much easier to tell the good disc priests from the horrible ones, just like all other healing specs.

[Irielle]

Do you realize you're hurting your raid playing a now subpar spec with trash throughput? I sure do.

I realize that I will 100% always play the best available spec to me. I am speaking of the HOLY spec, in case you are not clear on that. I have always been holy, and only switched to disc to help my raid because it was best at the time. Now with the nerf, ofc I will be going back to holy. I will be picking up Soul Warding simply because preshielding things such as electrocute is extremely useful.

[Aliahna]

If that's how you really feel, then remember that Holy Priests were and are competitive pre-hotfix. Content (13/13) was cleared with how they were, before and after 4.0.6. So just play that way, if you want.

I will. I have no plans of speccing that way. Besides, I think our disc priest has decided he's going to spam shields as holy since he doesn't think he can do it as disc now. /shrug