people right about Sylvanas after all?

[Legion]

If they intent to kill her, give me the chance to be and add during the encounter. I swear to god, I'll make all you assholes stand in the fire.

[Thage]

LOL It's not "a matter of perspective". Good and evil are not equatable to "perspective".

She is committing acts of murder to sustain her own power base. She doesn't give a rat's butt about anyone else but herself. She is a vile contemptible creature and does not fit the definition of "anti-hero".

---------- Post added 2011-07-06 at 12:08 PM ----------



Honestly, this is the most asinine argument I've ever seen. It's the same argument ethnic cleansers use to "purify the soul" of their victims and "save the earth" from the wrath of god.

There is no way you can argue this and be morally right.

Morality is entirely subjective on a cultural level, just look at the world we live in. What we consider reprehensible and disgusting, someone else's culture calls a heroic marytr giving his life for his god.

[DrakeWurrum]

There's a massive difference between being an Anti-hero and being a Villain.

Anti-heroes do the right thing, for the right reasons, in the wrong way.

She's never done the right thing. She's always done the self serving thing.

She's always done the right thing for the right reasons: for the survival of her people, in a land that is not ever going to welcome them. She's obviously doing it in the "wrong way" since she's alienating even her allies, but everything she has done for the Forsaken has been for their survival, to carve out their own place in the world where others cannot subjugate and control them.

Morally reprehensible actions or not, her people were going to be hated and hunted and slaughtered if she didn't build up a good amount of power so that they can continue to survive.
Coming to life against their will or not, most people will not give up their lives just because they don't want to be undead. They will hate their existence, grumble about it, complain about it at every turn, but it's now their (un)life and they will try to deal with it.

[Baker St Irregulars]

Who says I didn't see it coming? When I first heard of WoW I couldn't even believe the Forsaken were playable and joined the Horde. Don't make assumptions based an absolutely nothing.

But saying things like "I knew it all along" makes it feel like you want to come across cleverer and cooler than the rest.

I'm not going to lie because someone is embarrassed they didn't know it all along. It's like the ending to the Harry Potter series. The "hints" and "clues" were telegraphed as subtly to the readers as if they had been hit with 2 tons of bricks.

[Anoregon]

LOL It's not "a matter of perspective". Good and evil are not equatable to "perspective".

They absolutely are.

[Baker St Irregulars]

She's always done the right thing for the right reasons: for the survival of her people, in a land that is not ever going to welcome them. She's obviously doing it in the "wrong way" since she's alienating even her allies.

Either you know you're lying or you don't know what you're talking about.

"Her people" are not "Her people" to begin with.

She STEALS people from OTHER races by MURDERING them, then saying "Oh, I'll bring you back, but only if you bend down on your knees and do everything I say."

This is an immoral act of theft. It's as immoral as two parents who are incapable of having children, walking over to a school, kidnapping an 8 year old child and saying "We won't kill you if you promise to be our son/daughter for the rest of your life".

That's what we're discussing here. Stop pretending she's "saving her people".

[DrakeWurrum]

Either you know you're lying or you don't know what you're talking about.

"Her people" are not "Her people" to begin with.

She STEALS people from OTHER races by MURDERING them, then saying "Oh, I'll bring you back, but only if you bend down on your knees and do everything I say."

This is an immoral act of theft. It's as immoral as two parents who are incapable of having children, walking over to a school, kidnapping an 8 year old child and saying "We won't kill you if you promise to be our son/daughter for the rest of your life".

That's what we're discussing here. Stop pretending she's "saving her people".

You're honestly very naive if that's what you believe. =\

I've played the Horde since I first played this game, and I've always loved the Forsaken lore. I dig much deeper into lore than the average player.

"Her people" are "undead" plain and simple. I agree she's over-stepping her bounds by raising more Forsaken, but the Forsaken ORIGINALLY were all raised by Arthas, and other necromancers, against their will. What she's doing now is where she's "doing it the wrong way" because her goal, her mindset, is to continue building power and a home for "her people" but as a result she's becoming just as bad as Arthas himself.

Time will tell if she realizes this.
The common theme there is people being brought to life against their will.

[Deleted]

hehe ima political pony :3

[Baker St Irregulars]

They absolutely are.

No, they aren't. I suggest you abandon your year 1 philosophy argument while you're ahead.

[Thage]

Either you know you're lying or you don't know what you're talking about.

"Her people" are not "Her people" to begin with.

She STEALS people from OTHER races by MURDERING them, then saying "Oh, I'll bring you back, but only if you bend down on your knees and do everything I say."

This is an immoral act of theft. It's as immoral as two parents who are incapable of having children, walking over to a school, kidnapping an 8 year old child and saying "We won't kill you if you promise to be our son/daughter for the rest of your life".

That's what we're discussing here. Stop pretending she's "saving her people".

You missed the part where every single Forsaken is given the option of returning to death, going off and doing their own thing, or joining the Forsaken. It's explicitly stated, repeatedly, in the starting zone that the Forsaken are not pressed into service and are indeed allowed to do as they wish, up to and including returning to their eternal slumber.

[Baker St Irregulars]

You're honestly very naive if that's what you believe. =\

I've played the Horde since I first played this game, and I've always loved the Forsaken lore. I dig much deeper into lore than the average player.

"Her people" are "undead" plain and simple. I agree she's over-stepping her bounds by raising more Forsaken, but the Forsaken ORIGINALLY were all raised by Arthas, and other necromancers, against their will.
The common theme there is people being brought to life against their will.

She was murdering and raising more forsaken against their will long before WoW started. Exactly what do you think those poison quests were at the greymane wall, or in arathi highlands?

[DrakeWurrum]

You missed the part where every single Forsaken is given the option of returning to death, going off and doing their own thing, or joining the Forsaken. It's explicitly stated, repeatedly, in the starting zone that the Forsaken are not pressed into service and are indeed allowed to do as they wish, up to and including returning to their eternal slumber.

Quite true. I love how everybody skips directly over this.

Yes, you also spend time in the starting quests to tear apart a bunch of anti-Forsaken... undead... but wouldn't you also defend your way of life if a resistance group tried to build up right in the back-yard of Elwynn Forest? (Oh, wait, hasn't that been happening? *points at Defias Brotherhood*)

Yeah, humans don't kill humans. Ever.

She was murdering and raising more forsaken against their will long before WoW started. Exactly what do you think those poison quests were at the greymane wall, or in arathi highlands?

What makes you think that was under her command? It's rather obvious that the Forsaken all have their own free will. Case in point: Wrathgate.

You make it sound like everybody only does as their leader commands. Have you been to Stonetalon, and seen Garrosh personally deal with Krom'gar?

It's not exactly unusual.

[Deleted]

so admit he's ahead but are you undead? nope you aint so how do you know how it feels that your whole group could die out, they have become more than a rag tag group of rotting flesh they are a race now. i dont agree with them resurecting KIA allys and what not, but in their eyes its a needed thing

[Baker St Irregulars]

You missed the part where every single Forsaken is given the option of returning to death, going off and doing their own thing, or joining the Forsaken. It's explicitly stated, repeatedly, in the starting zone that the Forsaken are not pressed into service and are indeed allowed to do as they wish, up to and including returning to their eternal slumber.

WRONG

IF you do not choose to stay with her, you are perma killed.

Right now, in hillsbrad, there are forsake who are fighting against her because they refuse to join her legions and she refuses to let them go.

---------- Post added 2011-07-06 at 12:18 PM ----------

What makes you think that was under her command? It's rather obvious that the Forsaken all have their own free will. Case in point: Wrathgate.

Because she has since referred to the experiments in Arathi and Silverpine when discussing the new plague. That's why.

[Thage]

What makes you think that was under her command? It's rather obvious that the Forsaken all have their own free will. Case in point: Wrathgate.

And the Sludge Works in Hillsbrad. That's a fairly glaring example of Forsaken who operate directly against Sylvanas's agenda while still claiming to perform in her name. What was his reward? Execution by another, more loyal Forsaken.

[Eurytos]

Blizzard doesnt have the guts to kill off the "heroes" in game that we all love(or love to hate), again. They did it once, with Illidan. And then they came back and admitted it was a mistake, lol.

That is like George R.R. Martin coming back and admitting ***spolier*** killing Ned Stark in the first seaon/book was a mistake.

Killing off real heroes is hard to do. You have to have other heroes with stories that are just as compelling. WoW has very few of these left at all. Off the top of my head Thrall comes to mind. Pretty much everyone likes him. Malfurion even is likeable by almost all. Either one of their deaths would be tragic, and sadden most people, but if you had legitimate heroes to step in to take their place, it would make the lore of the game BETTER.

I don't mean to suggest that all legit heroes need to be killed off to validate their epicness, but there still needs to be another compelling figure to rise up and be the new hero. Take Tirion for example, he is quite the figure, and he had his moment in the light with the LK kill. He is now in his keep. He better stay there. I love Tirion, but I dont want to see him again, leading a collective group of horde and alliance against a common foe. In fact, I wish they would stop this whole collective group coming together to defeat a common foe.

I wish the would actually say, "Hey, the Horde killed Deathwing. Sucks for the alliance, they got slaughtered." or "The Alliance triumphed over the Rag, the horde got owned when they tried." Make it a cinematic or something. Of course we can all fight and get loot and kill bosses, but the actual lore of who killed the biggest baddie of the moment could be horde or alliance, not both in a collective group. That would foster some hate amongst the factions. Right now it seems that the only people that hate each other are Varian and Garrosh, while their subjects get along fine. Except for Sylvanas, she just hates everybody, and thats a great story. But they won't end it like it should be.

Also, I know there are tons of heroes that were killed or died or whatever in the books. Lothar, Grom, and others. But that's not in game. I'm talking about in game heroes that we see and fight with. If you bring up Cairne to rebut my argument that WoW doesnt kill heroes....spare me. He isnt on the level of Thrall, Malfurion, or even Sylvanas. I dont know what Blizz was thinking when the killed him, it did nothing.

[DrakeWurrum]

WRONG

IF you do not choose to stay with her, you are perma killed.

Right now, in hillsbrad, there are forsake who are fighting against her because they refuse to join her legions and she refuses to let them go.

Absolutely wrong. Your compelling argument is not so compelling.

She only fights against the undead who choose to fight her and her way of life, and prove a threat to the Forsaken way of life.

If they want to go do their own thing in some rotten corner of the world and never get involved with the Forsaken, it's none of her business.

[Nikkaszal]

No, they aren't. I suggest you abandon your year 1 philosophy argument while you're ahead.

This argument of yours with "Good" and "Evil" having nothing to do with perspective is laughable. I'll throw out one example here that you can relate entirely in WoW terms - the amount of people who automatically assume orcs = evil. The Alliance fanboys who don't want to roll on the "evil" Horde.

There is no such thing as black-and-white good and evil. Never has been, never will be.

And I'm going to leave this here before someone Godwin's the thread.

[Baker St Irregulars]

Absolutely wrong. Your compelling argument is not so compelling.

She only fights against the undead who choose to fight her and her way of life, and prove a threat to the Forsaken way of life.

If they want to go do their own thing in some rotten corner of the world and never get involved with the Forsaken, it's none of her business.

LOL You just contradicted yourself! Either you're such a fanboi for sylvanas you don't even realize what you're saying or you have absolutely 0 moral compass in regards to the acts of murder, theft, kidnapping and extortion she's carrying out!

[Thage]

WRONG

IF you do not choose to stay with her, you are perma killed.

Right now, in hillsbrad, there are forsake who are fighting against her because they refuse to join her legions and she refuses to let them go.

1) Prove it. I have quest text and quest events on my side, there is nothing stating they are 'perma killed.' The Forsaken that turn down Daschla/Agatha/Arthura's invitation (I can't recall exactly which of the three raise the Forsaken) lay right back down and return to death. There is no overt slaying going on on the val'kyr's end.
2) Where? I've done the entirety of Hillsbrad and the only subversive element I've encountered are in the Sludge Works, and they are insane and genuinely believe that what they're doing is what Sylvanas wants them to do. Someone needs to read quest text.