people right about Sylvanas after all?

[Baker St Irregulars]

You mean the Forsaken warrior, Bartholomew the Revered, who sees undeath as a disease that needs to be cured and is a vast minority opinion among the Forsaken?

Oh, I'm sorry, that's right. Everyone should be happy Sylvanas is murdering them and raising them from the dead as undead beasts to serve her will as if she's the new Lich Queen, instead of using a real resurrection spell.

You mean Putress, the traitor apothecary who cut a deal with the Legion?

Excuse me, but if you honestly believe that Putress managed to create an entire LEGION of an ARMY using MASSIVE amounts of FORSAKEN equipment and soldiers without Sylvanas' knowledge, I have an oceanfront timeshare that I'd LOVE to sell you here in Colorado.

You mean, the one where she said that without reinforcements, the Forsaken would die out? The same conversation where Garrosh made the same kneejerk conclusion every flag-waver on the Alliance and Horde jumped to without taking ten minutes to learn what they're talking about?

Go back to the analogy I made about the Infertile Parents kidnapping school children at gunpoint and justify again to me how Sylvanas' murdering people and forcing them to serve her whims is any different.

You mean the one quest hub where the questgiver is insane?

And yet that "insane questgiver's" knowledge is later used and implemented by the Forsaken. In fact, before being killed in the Arathi Quest Chain (I am assuming that's to what you're responding), you find out that he was under orders via Courier Message from Tarren Mill - orders issued from Lordaeron.

Try again.

You mean the Alliance death knight and the death knight who considered joining the Alliance?

I mean a head general of the Ebon Blade who is trying to make peace with his enemies while preventing another Lich King or Queen from rising in power.

You mean the questline where Koltira disobeyed a direct order from his military superior and then ordered you to join in on his disobedience?

And what was Koltira's order again? Yeah, I thought so. You really fail at this debate thing, don't you?

Your last line is a blatant case of the pot and the kettle. If you're going to call someone else black, be prepared to be called out on your hypocrisy.

I have no hypocrisy.

[Phenomina]

So when is Varian going to be held accountable for his terrible mismanagement of the situation in Westfall while constantly kicking more poor and homeless out of Elwynn and into the world's biggest ghetto, hm?

Poverty is a fact of life. Varian doesn't want his people to be poor And suffering It's also hardly comparible to chemical warfare assaults on towns and cities.....

[Deleted]

Moral relativism is one of the reasons evil is allowed to exist in this world. It's not even a philosophical question, but one of life and death.

Moment mal.

I know, quoting oneself sucks, but I feel it is necessary because some people got this wrong. I'm not talking about evil infidels, the death of your soul or any religious bullcrap.

I'm talking physical death. If you accept evil, just because it is "someone else's good", it might one day knock on your door and kick your ass.

[mistuhbull]

Poverty is a fact of life. Varian doesn't want his people to be poor And suffering It's also hardly comparible to chemical warfare assaults on towns and cities.....

But his people are suffering, they are just now suffering where their hunger moans don't interrupt Varian's admiration of his statue

[Deleted]

That's ok because they are his own people.

It's why we hate Hitler more than Stalin. Hitler killed others, Stalin killed his own.

ffs you just proved godwins law again i was hoping it wouldn't come to that XD

[CaptainArlong]

Those of you saying Sylvannas has an amazing story do know it's EXACTLY the same as Arthas, only her soul wasn't merged with Ner'zhul's. The Lich King was slaughtering Arthas' people and he was consumed with vengeance, falling straight into the Lich King's trap (Frostmourne). With Frostmourne he was completely under the Lich King's influence right up until he put on the Lich King's helmet and the two joined together.

Sylvannas, on the other hand, was consumed with vengeance and would stop at nothing to get revenge on Arthas. She kills anyone she wants, for no reason but revenge. Now that she can't have her revenge since it was Tirion and "others" who killed the Lich King, she just wants to kill, kill, kill, kill, and kill to make her armies bigger. There's no character development there at all. She is nothing more than a pre-Arthas Lich King.

Garrosh, on the other hand, was a whiny emo who learned that he's not his father's son and began to grow up in Northrend, and by Cataclysm had started to take great steps to becoming the Warchief of the Horde. He despises Sylvannas and her psychopathic tendencies, and he punishes his troops when they go too far (as seen in Stonetalon Mountain). His only flaw is he's expanded his armies too far and he can't control them.

[Zarasthura]

People need to remember that they just can't tack on any kind of Alliance morals onto the Forsaken, because for all intents and purposes they are an immoral people. Might makes right. What you see as a crime in murdering ROGUE kirin tor mages (that were allied with the INVADING Alliance forces) is just another way to defend their lands and keep their dwindling numbers steady.

Val'kyr reviving the dead is another way to add to their numbers, because remember: Garrosh is pushing Sylvanas to keep hitting the Worgen despite their disadvantages (no plague, smaller numbers). On top of this, King Chin wants to try and invade Lordaeron through WPL and kill her.

What else is Sylvanas supposed to do?

[Deleted]

All I hear is a bunch of insults, no actual defense. This is usually what happens when someone knows they can't argue their position.

Thanks for proving me right.

Ironically, you are the one talking down to people, and ignoring their arguments.

[Deleted]

I'm not going to lie because someone is embarrassed they didn't know it all along. It's like the ending to the Harry Potter series. The "hints" and "clues" were telegraphed as subtly to the readers as if they had been hit with 2 tons of bricks.

A) Drop the pseudo-intellectualism in the attempt of coming off as superior. The only thing you're doing is making yourself look like a pompous know-it-all.

B) Good and evil are totally subjective to the culture in which people live. You can't solely tell people what Good and what Evil is.

C) Winning an argument isn't closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and blindly yelling that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

[Frioz]

ffs you just proved godwins law again i was hoping it wouldn't come to that XD

The political pony is right again, fuck godwin and his law.

[Thage]

Poverty is a fact of life. Varian doesn't want his people to be poor And suffering It's also hardly comparible to chemical warfare assaults on towns and cities.....

My point is, it's odd how you seem ready to jump on Sylvanas for waging war in the most efficient manner possible, but when Varian denies his people basic human rights and shuffles them off to a ghetto, and then does almost nothing to address the problems arising in Westfall he gets a free pass on it for it being a 'fact of life'. Well, war absolutely sucking in every imaginable way, and chemical warfare are both facts of life, if you want to use that defense.

[DrakeWurrum]

Excuse me, but if you honestly believe that Putress managed to create an entire LEGION of an ARMY using MASSIVE amounts of FORSAKEN equipment and soldiers without Sylvanas' knowledge, I have an oceanfront timeshare that I'd LOVE to sell you here in Colorado.

I'll take that oceanfront. Remember that Putress had the help of Varimathras, who was essentially Sylvanus' trusted right-hand man. If she saw him preparing things, she probably would just assume it was for the sake of taking down the Scarlet Crusade. Also remember that, even in undeath, one person can't be aware of all their subordinates at all times.

I have a hard time keeping track of all 30 raiders in my guild, let alone the hundreds of people we have at friend/alt rank. It's not like I know all their comings and goings.

[Baker St Irregulars]

As for the talk with Garrosh, you didn't pay attention. She clearly states that the reason for her resurrections is because her people can't procreate.

Plenty of humans can't procreate either, does that mean they are justified in kidnapping/murdering others' children in order to continue their family line?

When her people are killed by alliance, they have no way of making up for those numbers.

1. They are not her people.
2. Maybe she should stop participating in warfare.
3. The orcs and humans are killing themselves often enough, and people die every day. She can be happy to take the scraps from those battles.

So, even if it is morally wrong, she is doing it for the sake of her people. If she didn't attack back at the Alliance, Lordaeron would be overrun. It also clearly states when you start an undead character, that they have the choice to not be resurrected.

She's doing it for the sake of power.

She refuses to abide by every single treaty she has signed.

She refuses to abide by every single peace agreement she has entered.

She lies about what she will and will not do.

She captured Val'kyr for the sole purpose of power and immortality.

The forsaken are not "her people". They are people from OTHER races OTHER factions she has murdered and raised from the dead to serve her whims.

As for your view that "murdering is wrong" you keep ignoring when people point out to you that Varian does the sake exact thing towards orcs. The orcs left the Eastern continent to find a new home and under Thrall, attempted to live in peace. However, Varian kept attacking. Humans also captured orcs and placed them in slavery. IE Thrall's life.

1. Thrall never once lived in peace.
2. The orcs are not native to azeroth, they are invaders.
3. The orcs continue to do things, even during "peactime" such as HELP THE FORSAKEN MAKE SUPER PLAGUES.
4. Even in the novels, there's 0 evidence that the orcs obeyed thrall.

Why do you think Thrall quit leading the horde?

If you're going to try and use "facts" to back yourself up, at least consider facts others post as well. You just keep ignoring all points of everyone else because it conflicts with what you refuse to admit may be wrong.

I considered them, and most of them are flat out lying.

[Deleted]

Can't wait to loot her, annoying and whiny wench that she be.

I mean, if you didn't hate her before, then you certainly did after she bitched your ear off through most of Silverpine. Such a whiner.


Though in hindsight, I mean she's been one shot by NPCs multiple times now. (And ressed)
That'll probably just happen to her again. Silly cow.

[mistuhbull]

ffs you just proved godwins law again i was hoping it wouldn't come to that XD

it's not quite Godwin, since the comparison is apropos and actually relevant, and IIRC Godwin's Law only apply to facetious Nazi comparisons. (and i'm not enough of a history buff to think of a non-Hitler Hitler)

[Eurytos]

ffs you just proved godwins law again i was hoping it wouldn't come to that XD

Godwin came to power just like Hitler.

Think about it.
Mind. Blown.

OT: You really didnt see this coming?

[Frioz]

A) Good and evil are totally subjective to the culture in which people live. You can't solely tell people what Good and what Evil is.

Yes I can tell them whats good and evil as long as I force them to accept it!

[Anoregon]

C) Winning an argument isn't closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and blindly yelling that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

This is the internet.

[DrakeWurrum]

Those of you saying Sylvannas has an amazing story do know it's EXACTLY the same as Arthas, only her soul wasn't merged with Ner'zhul's. The Lich King was slaughtering Arthas' people and he was consumed with vengeance, falling straight into the Lich King's trap (Frostmourne). With Frostmourne he was completely under the Lich King's influence right up until he put on the Lich King's helmet and the two joined together.

Sylvannas, on the other hand, was consumed with vengeance and would stop at nothing to get revenge on Arthas. She kills anyone she wants, for no reason but revenge. Now that she can't have her revenge since it was Tirion and "others" who killed the Lich King, she just wants to kill, kill, kill, kill, and kill to make her armies bigger. There's no character development there at all. She is nothing more than a pre-Arthas Lich King.

Garrosh, on the other hand, was a whiny emo who learned that he's not his father's son and began to grow up in Northrend, and by Cataclysm had started to take great steps to becoming the Warchief of the Horde. He despises Sylvannas and her psychopathic tendencies, and he punishes his troops when they go too far (as seen in Stonetalon Mountain). His only flaw is he's expanded his armies too far and he can't control them.

It's more than that. She was a servant of the Lich King as a banshee, after being slaughtered by him just so he could get to the Sunwell to bring a lich to life. She and her whole regiment, slaughtered, just because they stood in her way, and then risen to SERVE him and their evil goals, to help him overcome the city they were fighting to defend!
Then she managed to reclaim her body, break free of his rule when the Lich King's grasp weakened (thanks to Illidan), and kill her own demonic jailors, in order to reclaim the land for a people that she didn't even directly belong to... but shared a common enemy, and a common curse. Her entire goal then was to get vengeance on the man who literally destroyed her life, and put her into her current, horrifying existence.

Arthas, on the other hand, was not slaughtered by somebody out of hand. He was specifically chosen, as a child, by Ner'zhul himself to be his "chosen one" or so, and was manipulated into doing his bidding and turning more and more evil as the story went on. Sylvanus has none of that.

Arthas did nothing with vengeance in mind. Everything he did was for the Lich King, commanded by the Lich King, until the very final moment when being merged with the Lich King... when he essentially told Ner'zhul to shove it up his rear and get out.

[Phenomina]

But his people are suffering, they are just now suffering where their hunger moans don't interrupt Varian's admiration of his statue

Both capitals got. In-game revamp. Is there any lore or factual backup to Varian paying for the docks, a new keep, a new bank and an entire new city while enjoying Westfalls poverty and relishing in there hunger? Besides the Horde who suffer from lack of resources managed to build a whole new upgraded city..... ?