Tips for making a decent raiding guild

[exor]

Ok, so I am a commentator and like any I likR any I'm always coming up with new ideas. The latest is to try to create/ document a 25 man raiding guild

With me so far?

As far as my realm goes there's still a couple of firsts to go bt that's not my aim. I'm semi experienced with the last teir Of raiding, having killed all the bosses before patch.

My question is
How hard is it to create a decent 25 man raiding guild.

What are the best ways to go about it

If I am unable to attend most nights through a number of commitments, how would I judge a decent raid leader.

Any and all advice would be awesome,and please, knowing how hard Youtube can be don't flogg my idea.

[Téuntjûh]

With me so far?

No, not a clue what you're trying to say.

Something about starting a 25 man raiding guild?
It will be very hard, to get a decent raiding guild.
First of all, you'll need a core of raiders you can trust.
From there on you can build out.

Make good strict rules and try to keep to em.
Players who don't show up on most of the raids are useless to you,
as you don't want your raiding team to get too big.

Giving you little chance of succeeding tbh, if you are unable to raid most nights yourself.

[Mudkiper]

Define a 'decent' 25 man raiding guild. If you mean 7/7 normal.. easy, you could probably go to trade chat and find 25 people, makesure there specced and geared right and just need a good raid leader. Anything higher then that it gets harder. If you wanted to make a guild capable of 7/7 HC from scratch then you pretty much need to find 25 players from good guilds and ask them if they are willing to join, but those guilds rarely last.

My last guild was formed during ICC from the top 3 guilds on the realm, most of which had 5-10 really good players, carrying the rest and couldn't down LK Heroic, once we were all in a guild we got LK down within a week and it was probably the best guild I've been in, didn't last past the first month of cata though.

[Highandmighty]

People in wow have become increasingly impatient and disloyal. People switch guilds at the drop of a hat (outside of maybe your top 10 raid guilds on each faction). Getting 25 people to all show up consistantly is hard. Throw in raid balance/compostion needs and the need for people to know thier class, spec and role as well as the boss fight (and all of this assumes all 25 are geared and bring consumables which is another potential problem area), real life distractions (25 people = 25 chances someone wont show every single day), personality conflicts and the inevitable lootwhores qq'ing about not getting the drop they wanted... It's becoming borderline impossible.

At least in LK it was easier to keep a 25 together since the gear was much better so there was a built in incentive. Now the only incentive is you get more raid buffs and built in redundancy-ie losing a healer wont always mean a wipe wheras 10 man has less room for error.

They need to slightly nerf 10 man bosses and loot even if its only 5%- outside of a few hundred people on each server nobody gets to run 25s anymore and i think its kind of sad. And no BH doesnt count.

There needs to be more incentive to run 25 mans other than achievment points and bragging rights.

[Téuntjûh]

yup, really hard.
Imo 25 man guilds need some time to grow.

[Highandmighty]

Time is not the solution because people are impatient. By the time you get your group together the first few you recruited generally become impatient and look for another guild where they can raid NOW. The grass is always greener syndrome.

[Mammoth]

The first and key point is to have a large roster of 40-50 people and constant recruitment. Expect people to drop out all the time, so make sure there is someone there to fill his spot. The best method of recruitment is by website answered by class leaders.

Once you start raiding, don't stop. If you stop and people think the guild will collapse, they will start arranging spots in new guilds before those other guild's rosters are full with other members from your guild.

A clear DKP loot system also makes life easier on everyone. Giving priority to friends who have only just joined the guild is a fast way to creating a splinter group leaving you to make their own 10 man.

Above all, when raiding, you need control over many people. Keep them quiet in chat and understanding their jobs. I find the best way of doing this is with global channels you can use for each role: tank/healers/melee/ranged with a sub-raid leader organising the guys separately. That way the RL doesn't have to deal with every question given.

[Youarefired]

Find 24 people on the server who act like jerks, who /afk in a major city on their rare mounts so everyone can see them, who only want gear and actually care about achievement points.

Gather them up and say in a primitive voice "We best guild. We raid best. Play all day! No sleep! Kill bosses! Go!"

Done!

[Endus]

If you mean you want progression, there's a few tips you can take to heart;

1> One strike system. If someone's performance is below average, they get ONE strike. If they can't improve to the expected level by the next raid night, gkick them. I don't care if they're your girlfriend or a nice guy or what have you. The only alternative to a gkick is permanently slotting them into a "non-raider" rank and NEVER letting them raid.

2> Recruit constantly. Gkick constantly. Applications are useful for finding people who can type in complete sentences, but beyond that don't prove much. Can't perform? Gone.

3> Pick a loot system and stick to it. If you use a point system like DKP, do NOT add additional rules like "only bid for main spec" to it. If you want to set rules like that, just be honest and up front and use a Loot Council, don't hide it behind an irrelevant mask of a point system you'll ignore and modify to get the results you could just vote for honestly.

4> Drama = gone. If your best raider starts bitching about how loot is unfair and he deserves priority because he's a special snowflake, get rid of him. Nothing is more destructive than poor morale. No one-strike policy on this, either.

5> Be reasonable, but firm. Gkicking someone who stood in a fire on a pull is a bit much, but gkicking the guy who stood in the fire for a tick or two too long every time is required. D/Cs happen, as does lag, but if it's a constant issue, you can't put up with it, you need to find reliable players.

6> Don't yell. It's one thing to bark orders during a pull, it's another to yell at your raiders over Vent. We're all here to enjoy ourselves. Instead of yelling, just put your actions where your mouth is and remove the problem players.

7> Don't teach. If you have to tell them their spec is wrong or to point them at EJ or the forums here, then you should just gkick them. Players who aren't willing or able to figure out how to play on their own are not the people you want to have.

8> Seriously. Gkick them. Every person you keep who causes any kind of problem in a raid consistently is angering 24 other people. Stop worrying about the one, and worry about the 24.

[Téuntjûh]

If you mean you want progression, there's a few tips you can take to heart;

1> One strike system. If someone's performance is below average, they get ONE strike. If they can't improve to the expected level by the next raid night, gkick them. I don't care if they're your girlfriend or a nice guy or what have you. The only alternative to a gkick is permanently slotting them into a "non-raider" rank and NEVER letting them raid.

2> Recruit constantly. Gkick constantly. Applications are useful for finding people who can type in complete sentences, but beyond that don't prove much. Can't perform? Gone.

3> Pick a loot system and stick to it. If you use a point system like DKP, do NOT add additional rules like "only bid for main spec" to it. If you want to set rules like that, just be honest and up front and use a Loot Council, don't hide it behind an irrelevant mask of a point system you'll ignore and modify to get the results you could just vote for honestly.

4> Drama = gone. If your best raider starts bitching about how loot is unfair and he deserves priority because he's a special snowflake, get rid of him. Nothing is more destructive than poor morale. No one-strike policy on this, either.

5> Be reasonable, but firm. Gkicking someone who stood in a fire on a pull is a bit much, but gkicking the guy who stood in the fire for a tick or two too long every time is required. D/Cs happen, as does lag, but if it's a constant issue, you can't put up with it, you need to find reliable players.

6> Don't yell. It's one thing to bark orders during a pull, it's another to yell at your raiders over Vent. We're all here to enjoy ourselves. Instead of yelling, just put your actions where your mouth is and remove the problem players.

7> Don't teach. If you have to tell them their spec is wrong or to point them at EJ or the forums here, then you should just gkick them. Players who aren't willing or able to figure out how to play on their own are not the people you want to have.

8> Seriously. Gkick them. Every person you keep who causes any kind of problem in a raid consistently is angering 24 other people. Stop worrying about the one, and worry about the 24.

+++ A +1 from me, follow this and you should get started

[Thinktonk]

not gonna happen on short notice

[Mudkiper]

If you mean you want progression, there's a few tips you can take to heart;

1> One strike system. If someone's performance is below average, they get ONE strike. If they can't improve to the expected level by the next raid night, gkick them. I don't care if they're your girlfriend or a nice guy or what have you. The only alternative to a gkick is permanently slotting them into a "non-raider" rank and NEVER letting them raid.

2> Recruit constantly. Gkick constantly. Applications are useful for finding people who can type in complete sentences, but beyond that don't prove much. Can't perform? Gone.

3> Pick a loot system and stick to it. If you use a point system like DKP, do NOT add additional rules like "only bid for main spec" to it. If you want to set rules like that, just be honest and up front and use a Loot Council, don't hide it behind an irrelevant mask of a point system you'll ignore and modify to get the results you could just vote for honestly.

4> Drama = gone. If your best raider starts bitching about how loot is unfair and he deserves priority because he's a special snowflake, get rid of him. Nothing is more destructive than poor morale. No one-strike policy on this, either.

5> Be reasonable, but firm. Gkicking someone who stood in a fire on a pull is a bit much, but gkicking the guy who stood in the fire for a tick or two too long every time is required. D/Cs happen, as does lag, but if it's a constant issue, you can't put up with it, you need to find reliable players.

6> Don't yell. It's one thing to bark orders during a pull, it's another to yell at your raiders over Vent. We're all here to enjoy ourselves. Instead of yelling, just put your actions where your mouth is and remove the problem players.

7> Don't teach. If you have to tell them their spec is wrong or to point them at EJ or the forums here, then you should just gkick them. Players who aren't willing or able to figure out how to play on their own are not the people you want to have.

8> Seriously. Gkick them. Every person you keep who causes any kind of problem in a raid consistently is angering 24 other people. Stop worrying about the one, and worry about the 24.

How many raiders do you intend to go through, atleast were the best guild on our realm and we get like.. 1 application every 2 weeks. If your a new guild your gonna get less, so gkicking everyone for anything isn't gonna work when you try to raid on a wednesday with 15 people.

[exor]

So pre much
Start at 10 man
Make a set of rules and stick by them
If u set a raid, make sure your there for it and know the fight well enough to coordinate it.

Sound about right?

[nickbg]

Why don't you start with something more simple first? Like writing properly and editing your posts...

[traen]

The first thing that you need when you start 25man guild is highly experienced, competent and respected raid leader.

Recrutement, loot system, rules, website is nothing if you lack good raid leader.

The second thing that you should understand - raid leader should be guild leader.

So its dead end for you. Basically you can't make decent raiding guild because you dont want to rule it.

[Endus]

How many raiders do you intend to go through, atleast were the best guild on our realm and we get like.. 1 application every 2 weeks. If your a new guild your gonna get less, so gkicking everyone for anything isn't gonna work when you try to raid on a wednesday with 15 people.

I've been running (not guild leader, but second-in-command) a moderately successful raiding guild since early TBC. While we don't follow all those rules, we're admittedly a more casual guild. However, every single major issue we've had with membership and progression has been because we did NOT follow one or more of those rules. We let some people skate by because they've been members and friends for three years or more. If you're starting a new guild, you don't have that back history to give you any reason to overlook anything.

And yes, you'll go through a lot of players. If you recruit 30 people to start, and 20 of them are terrible, you have 10 players you should keep. Trying to keep/improve the other 20 will lead to problems and provide you zero benefit. And sure, you won't get many apps; we get maybe 1-2 a week ourselves. We do most of our recruiting via word of mouth; a friend brings in a friend who has other friends, etc. And again; we've got a strong core,that's survived a server transfer (we started on Ravenholdt-US, which had a terribly small raiding community; when we left we were one of two Alliance guilds that had any reasonable progression in ICC, 10- or 25-man).

Finding raiders is like panning for gold. You want gold, but not everyone you recruit will BE gold, so you need to remove the ones that aren't. Not raiding 25-man because you don't have enough people yet is better than raiding 25-man and failing because you've got bad players you won't remove; that just convinces your few GOOD players to gquit and find a guild that will get somewhere.

[Ellesarr]

Start as 10 man, be succesfull by recruiting quality people (luck needed especialy at the start). Pugging people at the start is a good idea. often you can start by making a weekly pug which you can then convert into a guild.

Make sure people know about your guild, advertise on multiple sites.

Now is the time to make one with the summer alot of guilds will be having problems and might even disband.

gl

[Stealthedbear]

If you mean you want progression, there's a few tips you can take to heart;

1> One strike system. If someone's performance is below average, they get ONE strike. If they can't improve to the expected level by the next raid night, gkick them. I don't care if they're your girlfriend or a nice guy or what have you. The only alternative to a gkick is permanently slotting them into a "non-raider" rank and NEVER letting them raid.

2> Recruit constantly. Gkick constantly. Applications are useful for finding people who can type in complete sentences, but beyond that don't prove much. Can't perform? Gone.

3> Pick a loot system and stick to it. If you use a point system like DKP, do NOT add additional rules like "only bid for main spec" to it. If you want to set rules like that, just be honest and up front and use a Loot Council, don't hide it behind an irrelevant mask of a point system you'll ignore and modify to get the results you could just vote for honestly.

4> Drama = gone. If your best raider starts bitching about how loot is unfair and he deserves priority because he's a special snowflake, get rid of him. Nothing is more destructive than poor morale. No one-strike policy on this, either.

5> Be reasonable, but firm. Gkicking someone who stood in a fire on a pull is a bit much, but gkicking the guy who stood in the fire for a tick or two too long every time is required. D/Cs happen, as does lag, but if it's a constant issue, you can't put up with it, you need to find reliable players.

6> Don't yell. It's one thing to bark orders during a pull, it's another to yell at your raiders over Vent. We're all here to enjoy ourselves. Instead of yelling, just put your actions where your mouth is and remove the problem players.

7> Don't teach. If you have to tell them their spec is wrong or to point them at EJ or the forums here, then you should just gkick them. Players who aren't willing or able to figure out how to play on their own are not the people you want to have.

8> Seriously. Gkick them. Every person you keep who causes any kind of problem in a raid consistently is angering 24 other people. Stop worrying about the one, and worry about the 24.

Wish I would have seen these kinds of posts earlier. I am raid leading a guild and most of the raiders i've had to help and go over their spec so much. A part of me just wants to keep them around because i've spent hours with them, became close with them, etc.

Also, what would you do about a hunter who only wants to play BM? We don't need any of the buffs BM brings (already have arcane mage, all other buffs, etc.) and most people tell me that MM or SV have higher DPS gains. But the hunter is a good player and has good raid awareness, etc.

[Zavala88]

Wish I would have seen these kinds of posts earlier. I am raid leading a guild and most of the raiders i've had to help and go over their spec so much. A part of me just wants to keep them around because i've spent hours with them, became close with them, etc.

Also, what would you do about a hunter who only wants to play BM? We don't need any of the buffs BM brings (already have arcane mage, all other buffs, etc.) and most people tell me that MM or SV have higher DPS gains. But the hunter is a good player and has good raid awareness, etc.

When in doubt... gkick

[Myrkur]

I've been running (not guild leader, but second-in-command) a moderately successful raiding guild since early TBC. While we don't follow all those rules, we're admittedly a more casual guild. However, every single major issue we've had with membership and progression has been because we did NOT follow one or more of those rules. We let some people skate by because they've been members and friends for three years or more. If you're starting a new guild, you don't have that back history to give you any reason to overlook anything.

And yes, you'll go through a lot of players. If you recruit 30 people to start, and 20 of them are terrible, you have 10 players you should keep. Trying to keep/improve the other 20 will lead to problems and provide you zero benefit. And sure, you won't get many apps; we get maybe 1-2 a week ourselves. We do most of our recruiting via word of mouth; a friend brings in a friend who has other friends, etc. And again; we've got a strong core,that's survived a server transfer (we started on Ravenholdt-US, which had a terribly small raiding community; when we left we were one of two Alliance guilds that had any reasonable progression in ICC, 10- or 25-man).

Finding raiders is like panning for gold. You want gold, but not everyone you recruit will BE gold, so you need to remove the ones that aren't. Not raiding 25-man because you don't have enough people yet is better than raiding 25-man and failing because you've got bad players you won't remove; that just convinces your few GOOD players to gquit and find a guild that will get somewhere.

Having enough people to actually raid every week is more important than just kicking people willy nilly. To be able to have that kind of turnover in a guild you need to be on a very populated server and be good enough and progressed enough that people actually want to apply to your guild. A new guild will likely not have either of these qualifications.

To start a successful 25 man Raid, you need to start off with at least a successful 10 man raid. Expand that to a second raid group by recruiting more people and teaching them the encounters in a group comprised of half recruits and half veterans on alts from the first 10 man group. Once you have 15-20 people that have experience raiding together, are competant and can play well you can recruit 10-15 more people and start doing 25 mans. There you will have to not only teach new recruits the encounters and how to play, but have to teach all the 10-15 veterans how to play in a 25 man environment as it is different from a 10 man.

Once you have a successful 25 Man Raid group that is capable of killing normal modes, applications to your guild should be going up and you can start introducing those rules. You can't just up and say "I'm starting a 25 man raid guild tonight" and incorporate those rules.