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  1. #101
    private waste is not.
    Private waste can still effect outside parties though. I could have my property values tanked for instance. To say government waste is different because it effects the public via taxes is wrong. Waste in any sector effects the public.

  2. #102
    i wonder how many posts on this forum are just complaining/whining.

  3. #103
    [QUOTE=Caiada;13310522]More oversight and regulation of the government's spending would be quite helpful. I think everyone could agree with that.

    Also, a $16 muffin better be the greatest muffin ever made on Earth.[COLOR="red"]

    Some people are like cutting the amount of money spent of muffins won't help. Hello if they are spending x4 on muffins think what else they are multiplying the cost on.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post

    Citation required. But I know your knowledge of US history is rather limited. Our government actually performs better in many ways than it did in the past.

    Like just yesterday I linked you a GAO report showing the foodstamps program running at its most efficient levels.

    Are you kidding? The waste levels are the most they have ever been. You can trot out as many examples of efficiency as you'd like, it's not hard to see that the inefficiencies outnumber them. The right has been pinning all of it on the left... notice the topics that they bring up are all helping the poor or involving health care?


    GAO Details Billions in Federal Waste --- Report Obtained by Fox News

    by Trish Turner | February 28, 2011


    As members of Congress fight over what to cut in the current federal budget to avert a government shutdown, lawmakers are about to receive a blockbuster report that could provide a roadmap to potentially hundreds of billions of dollars in waste. The nonpartisan Government Accountability Office (GAO) is poised to release a report Tuesday that one senator said "will make us all look like jackasses."

    "Go study that (report). It will show why we're $14 trillion in debt," said Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla. "Anybody that says we don't look like fools up here hasn't read the report."

    Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/20...#ixzz1YhtqHW5V

    ---------- Post added 2011-09-22 at 06:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Private waste can still effect outside parties though. I could have my property values tanked for instance. To say government waste is different because it effects the public via taxes is wrong. Waste in any sector effects the public.
    What are you even talking about? Nobody said it couldn't.


    Private waste is managed privately. When the government has 50 programs that cost $2 billion each, totalling $100 billion dollars, and it is revealed that the exact same thing can be accomplished for $20 billion total across 5 programs, that's waste. It's up to the government to fix it.

    When your property value tanks that's not waste. Something depreciating in value isn't waste.

    Waste would be that you have poor insulation and pay too much heating and AC due to it. It's not up to anyone except for yourself to fix your house, and until you do you are effectively wasting money.
    Last edited by frott; 2011-09-22 at 06:33 PM.

  5. #105
    I think the majority of you are only looking for blame any place you can. So what if they had an "expensive" meal? Don't tell me any of you don't take advantage of free food/services/whatever at your jobs. I'm not sure if what posted above was correct but a $76 per person is not really that much. I think I spent around $200 on my senior prom dinner for me and my date. I am not really sure why you are all up in arms over this.

  6. #106
    The waste levels are the most they have ever been.
    eagerly awaiting citation.

    What are you even talking about? Nobody said it couldn't.
    Have you not been following the thread? My argument is that government waste is no different than any other. So the public impact of private sector waste is super fucking relevant.

    When your property value tanks that's not waste.
    You missed the point. Destroying property value is a way in which private sector waste can harm the public.

    Why would a developer have any control over if a mega-store finishes or not?
    Do you know what a developer is? They build buildings then find people to use them. Not every chain box store has a building custom built for it. This example was one such project. Speculative building.

    Your city has garbage laws if the government can't claim imminent domain, and a crap government if they don't.
    Eminent domain isn't the issue here. The issue was the developer started on a project without finding out if the city was willing to reshape the road for him first.

    Your city has garbage laws if the government can't claim imminent domain, and a crap government if they don't.
    just because government has no profit motive doesn't mean it has no motive to reduce waste.

  7. #107
    Some would argue (and I don't fully doubt it) that those strange expenditures are disguises for funding operations and programs so the public can never know about them..no matter what.

  8. #108
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Private waste can still effect outside parties though. I could have my property values tanked for instance. To say government waste is different because it effects the public via taxes is wrong. Waste in any sector effects the public.
    Property values did not tank because of private waste. They tanked because the private sector constructed something on private property that people do not want to see.

    You're arguing a totally different case here. You're arguing against private property rights. You're arguing that people aren't allowed to build buildings with certain aestethic appearances.

    The government waste part of your anecdote affected everyone in a totally different way. It used resources for nothing productive. That happens. It was his resources, he used them bad, shit luck. Society as a whole became poorer, but the person who got poorer was the contractor.

  9. #109
    Property values did not tank because of private waste. They tanked because the private sector constructed something on private property that people do not want to see.
    If bulldozing a city block then building half a store before boarding it up and abandoning it for close to 20 years in the middle of a previously healthy part of the city thus killing local property values doesn't count as private sector waste hurting outside people then you're either being intellectually dishonest or there is no point in continuing this.

    You're arguing against private property rights.
    nope. not once have I said this man did not have the right to do what he did.

    You're arguing that people aren't allowed to build buildings with certain aestethic appearances.
    Hahaha the aestethic appearances of a crime ridden plywood box.

    It used resources for nothing productive.
    Which is exactly what happened here. It seems I could roll this up into a tube and beat you with it and you still wouldn't see it.

  10. #110
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    If bulldozing a city block then building half a store before boarding it up and abandoning it for close to 20 years in the middle of a previously healthy part of the city thus killing local property values doesn't count as private sector waste hurting outside people then you're either being intellectually dishonest or there is no point in continuing this.
    No, because he could've just as well built an incredibly repulsive house for himself. Or he could've built something else that looked hideous and was productive. Property values did not go down because it was wasteful - property values went down because it was aestethically unpleasing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    nope. not once have I said this man did not have the right to do what he did.
    Are people allowed to build houses on private property that look like shit which causes property values to go down, in your book?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    Which is exactly what happened here. It seems I could roll this up into a tube and beat you with it and you still wouldn't see it.
    Yes, but that has nothing to do with the housing prices going down. He used it on something unproductive, resources were wasted. Private entepreneurs make mistakes all the time. No one is saying any different. The difference is that when a private entepreneur does the mistake, he's the one taking the biggest hit. It's his own resources that are being wasted.

  11. #111
    Property values did not go down because it was wasteful - property values went down because it was aestethically unpleasing.
    Which made it wasteful.

    Are people allowed to build houses on private property that look like shit which causes property values to go down, in your book?
    Unless they enter into a contract forbidding it sure, but I won't pretend it doesn't happen.

    but that has nothing to do with the housing prices going down.
    I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that wasting resources had nothing to do with property values in this case.

    In fact I can only conclude you're trying to tread water here until the topic changes.

    he's the one taking the biggest hit
    Really? beacause this developer is still going strong, but I know personally a man who's business went under in the local die off.

  12. #112
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Which made it wasteful.
    No, that doesn't have to be wasteful. If I build a house I like very much, but everyone else thinks looks totally rubbish - causing property values to go down, does not make it wasteful. Subjective values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    Unless they enter into a contract forbidding it sure, but I won't pretend it doesn't happen.
    Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that wasting resources had nothing to do with property values in this case.
    In fact I can only conclude you're trying to tread water here until the topic changes.
    Property values were just a bi-product not inherently related to waste. What if the mall had been completed, using even more resources, but left empty for decades. Surely housing prices wouldn't have dropped as much, but it would've wasted alot more physical resources. And I'm not treading any water, I'm showing you that you're looking at the wrong thing.

    He wasted resources because of a mistake, this mistake just happened to be aestathically unpleasing. Even if he'd made a successful investment, it could've still dropped property prices.




    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    Really? beacause this developer is still going strong, but I know personally a man who's business went under in the local die off.
    Oh come on that's such bullshit. So what if he's still going strong? That just means he didn't do very many mistakes overall. The mistake he did with the mall still cost him resources. And again you reveal that you have an emotional stance instead of a rational stance on this issue.

  13. #113
    No, that doesn't have to be wasteful. If I build a house I like very much, but everyone else thinks looks totally rubbish - causing property values to go down, does not make it wasteful. Subjective values.
    Thats nice but we're not talking about gaudy mansions. We're talking about urban blight.

    He wasted resources because of a mistake, this mistake just happened to be aestathically unpleasing. Even if he'd made a successful investment, it could've still dropped property prices.
    Just because it could have anyway doesn't matter here.

    And you keep refusing to see the connection between: 1) Made mistake 2) consequences of mistake.

    And again you reveal that you have an emotional stance instead of a rational stance on this issue.
    Don't assume the two are mutually exclusive, its just lazy.

  14. #114
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    And you keep refusing to see the connection between: 1) Made mistake 2) consequences of mistake.
    But the consequence that property values went down is not inherently related to private sector waste. Successful or unsuccessful construction can bring that about.

    Dropping property values, because of a situation like this, brings about the discussion of people should have bad looking properties or not. But that's another discussion.

    Because infact, private sector efficiency is what made the property values drop. If he had demolished & cleaned his property or finished the building, he would've wasted much more resources than he used when he just boxed it up. But because he was efficient after realising his mistake, he just boxed it up which was aestethically unpleasing which caused property values to drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells
    Don't assume the two are mutually exclusive, its just lazy.
    It's harder accepting anyone elses view when you have an emotional connect to the situation.

  15. #115
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    It's harder accepting anyone elses view when you have an emotional connect to the situation.
    Considering that about summarizes your entire breadth of opinion, I'd say you're not one to talk.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by wooshiewoo View Post
    The point is, that
    People are making an issue out of a non-issue. That's what the entire point is: this wouldn't even be talked about if it wasn't for politics, plain and simple. It happens everywhere, it happens all the time, and it's a non-issue.

  17. #117
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Considering that about summarizes your entire breadth of opinion, I'd say you're not one to talk.
    You're always the johnny-come-lately that can't manage to do anything else than attack other's person, but never the argument.

  18. #118
    But the consequence that property values went down is not inherently related to private sector waste. Successful or unsuccessful construction can bring that about.
    Are you really saying the property value crash can't be a consequence of the blight in this case because other things can cause property value crashes?

    You're always the johnny-come-lately that can't manage to do anything else than attack other's person, but never the argument.
    i could literally write your arguments for you so its ok.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    We have a saying in Sweden: "Det är lätt att se stickan i andras ögon men inte balken i sitt eget". Roughly it says "It's easy to see the splinter in others eyes but not the beam in your own" and I think it fits very good in situations like this :P
    "And why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye, and not notice the beam which is in your own eye?" -- Matthew 7:3

  20. #120
    Old God conscript's Avatar
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    You know, I can understand $16 muffins. A good muffin is normally like $5 from a place so I could see a really good muffin being $16. Look at Neiman Marcus (spelling) and their super expensive cookies. But how on earth do you make a $5 Swedish meatball? Is it made from kobe beef? Is the gravy laced with gold?

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