"Support" is the new "Heal"

[Snow White]

What I worry about is when it becomes expected to bring a support spec guardian to your dungeon. If more and more players focus on support then I worry the guardian class will get pigeonholed into that 'role' and be expected to fill it.

I really worry about the community trying to turn GW2 into wow because they would rather do something familiar and then try and learn something new.

If that starts to happen I'll be emailing Anet and asking what happened to 'no healers needed.'

[Mif]

What I worry about is when it becomes expected to bring a support spec guardian to your dungeon. If more and more players focus on support then I worry the guardian class will get pigeonholed into that 'role' and be expected to fill it.

I really worry about the community trying to turn GW2 into wow because they would rather do something familiar and then try and learn something new.

If that starts to happen I'll be emailing Anet and asking what happened to 'no healers needed.'

They won't let that happen, thanks to swift use of the nerfbat.

[Ynna]

What I worry about is when it becomes expected to bring a support spec guardian to your dungeon. If more and more players focus on support then I worry the guardian class will get pigeonholed into that 'role' and be expected to fill it.

I really worry about the community trying to turn GW2 into wow because they would rather do something familiar and then try and learn something new.

If that starts to happen I'll be emailing Anet and asking what happened to 'no healers needed.'

I'd really hate to see that happen, but by the looks of it it seems that support isn't able to carry a group like a healer could. There are no direct, targeted heals that can make up for people's mistake. There's also no option for a completely support-build and every class and weapon layout has support buttons. So people asking for dedicated support (as in: doing nothing but support) aren't playing their class as well as they could. Just ignore those and enjoy the game with people who do use all of their skills.

[Skyve]

NO NO NO.

If you think like that you will be standing around not doing anything a lot of the time since you would rely on secondary skills to "support" and they will have cooldowns.

NO NO NO, if you think like that, than you think people don't realize when they have time to DPS. I mean seriously, I even nuke bosses in WoW raids as a healer when I've got nothing else to do to keep me occupied...

[[-Spiritus-]]

Ok.... if support abilities have CDs, and DPS abilities have CDs, and you have a spammable pew pew button for each weapon set... and someone selects the weapons sets that have a few more support-y type skills, and their super-mega CD is support and their heal slot is a group heal...

...and then they play those weapon sets and skills to their absolute fullest, never wasting an opportunity to do something, whether it's a support, control, or damage skill, then how are they not getting the concept of GW2? If that is "bad" play then it suggests that certain weapon combos and skills are "bad," which suggests that the design is flawed, not the player.

A short read on the skill system from the devs:

Much like in Guild Wars, the skill bar in Guild Wars 2 is limited to a set number of skills. Like a collectible card game, we provide the player with a wide variety of choices and allow them to pick and choose skills to create a build that best suits their particular play style. For example, one Guild Wars 2 warrior might decide to build his character around gradual damage which causes his opponents to bleed out, while another may choose to knock his opponents down, controlling their movement with slow, large attacks. Both warriors can choose to equip the skills that matter most to them. It is also very important to us that our skill system be simple to use, leaving the screen as clean and unintimidating as possible. All of this combines to give us a skill bar and skill system that's a bit different than what you'd typically find in an MMO.

[Arkenaw]

I hope it ends up being like monster hunter, where you CAN support but shouldn't focus on it exclusively. For example, there's a skill to let potions heal an area around you. Sure it's nice, but you don't see people entirely based around that running around drinking potions and not helping to fight the monster.

[Drakhar]

Perhaps it's time to take a step back and read the words of the developers:

The problem with that quotation is that people take it as "OH THERE'S STILL A TRINITY BUT IT HAS DIFFERENT NAMES!!11!1" and ignore the second half of the sentence where he explains how it has nothing to do with traditional roles. At all. Not even a little bit. There's no "switching roles" or "now I'm being support!" moment in a dungeon or even within a single fight. You're playing all of those roles, at once, which is why I really disapprove of this thread as well as the "control is tanking" one. All this is doing is perpetuating the idea that there is a trinity when there isn't one at all.

You're not going to cast a fireball that also cripples/burns a mob and think "oh man, I'm DD'ing AND supportin' mah group!"

You have utility skills to be used regularly in combat, supporting allies or debuffing enemies, but it should never, ever be compared to a "support role" as some kind of new trinity. If you want to be a Guardian who loads the entire right half of his bar with support skills, you still won't be herpaderping around the backline not actually dealing any damage.

People need to stop thinking about GW2 "roles" in terms of other games, at least when it comes to the harder content. The 3 roles outlined (support, control, damage) are the tools available, not roles for a class/player to fill. Yes, you can be more support oriented, or more control oriented, but adapting between all 3 roles using all the tools available as the fight/situation demands is of more benefit.

^This explains it more simply than my roundabout rant.

[Skyve]

I'm going to assume this is aimed at me since it mentions cooldowns.

My point is as long as you don't think of yourself as playing a specific role and contribute I'm fine with it, I only have problems with people saying they only want to do one thing.

And by cooldowns I meant skills 6-10 not weapon skills - my point was that if someone had the idea only to bring defensive skills as his non-weapon skills and didn't want to use 1-5 because they did damage then that guy would be standing around and not doing anything half the time.

You are starting to make less and less sense with every post you write...

[[-Spiritus-]]

And by cooldowns I meant skills 6-10 not weapon skills - my point was that if someone had the idea only to bring defensive skills as his non-weapon skills and didn't want to use 1-5 because they did damage then that guy would be standing around and not doing anything half the time.

Yeah, we're on the same page.

The problem with that quotation is that people take it as "OH THERE'S STILL A TRINITY BUT IT HAS DIFFERENT NAMES!!11!1" and ignore the second half of the sentence where he explains how it has nothing to do with traditional roles.

If people can't take the time to read the OP, which is quite clear, then that is a reply error. The title is meant to grab attention and, generally, explain, in the developer's own words, how to move someone from the "trinity" mindset to the GW2 mindset. The title of the thread isn't the cause of someone not understanding what the developers are trying to say.

You're not going to cast a fireball that also cripples/burns a mob and think "oh man, I'm DD'ing AND supportin' mah group!"

Why not? If my Fireball does damage and debuffs, that's what I'm going to think when I cast it. Just like if mages were real, and I could really cast a fireball, and I not only knew it would kill the bad guys, but also cause them to burn horrifically in front of their buddies, which would distract the focus of their friends, I would be thinking of that when casting the FB. The same with an ice spell, "not only am I killing the bad guys, but I'm making the ground icy, which will make it harder for other bad guys to reach me."

You have utility skills to be used regularly in combat, supporting allies or debuffing enemies, but it should never, ever be compared to a "support role" as some kind of new trinity. If you want to be a Guardian who loads the entire right half of his bar with support skills, you still won't be herpaderping around the backline not actually dealing any damage.

I agree with this 100%. I think, however, there is a difference between a guardian that loads the rightside of his or her bar with support skills, but uses all of his or her ability potential, and thinks of his or her self as primarily, in an RP sense, "the guy or gal who helps his or her buddies out to win," and a guy who's like "I haz support stuff, but I no hit things."

Just like the guy who loads his rightbar w/ damage stuff, but uses all his or her ability potential, and thinks of his or her self as primarily, in the RP sense, "the guy or gal who savagely rips apart his or her foes," is a lot different than the guy who's like "I haz deeps...LOL support, wutz dat."

[Ulfhedinn]

My wife and I have one reason above all else for always playing tanks and healers. We can't trust anyone else to do such an important job. So we approve of this system.

See we both would much rather play a hybrid style character (Druid and Paladin where our mains) Where we dps, tank or heal/support as needed but that doesn't work in EQ or most MMOs anymore really.

I also get the feeling this system will really make the bads and the goods stand out.

[MrSerious]

I would NEVER play a healer, but I'm legitimately excited at the idea of support.

As a Rogue, I would always try to be a smart DPS. On Marrowgar when an idiot hunter standing way out by himself got bonespiked, I would always be the one to rocketboot out and blow all my cooldowns to save his stupid ass. Or when my healers pulled agro, I would be the one to dash in and try and evasion tank for them. Even if I died doing it, to me it was better than topping a meter (and I used to parse top 200 on WoL), because I felt my actions had contributed more to our victory.

You sound like the type of player I would always want in my group. Too many times I find myself stuck with recount chases, the type of people that wouldn't attack the bonespikes because they would stuff up their rotation. then gloat about how much dps they're doing and how everyone else are scrubs.

[almalexia]

but if there is no healer, what will all the females do?

Yeah, let's not go down that road. Infracted. -Edge

[Blznsmri]

but if there is no healer, what will all the females do?

Not get reported like you.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I've played healer on 3 different classes in WoW. Priest, shammy, paladin. I have to say that it's a very BORING way of helping your friends stay alive. I have to constantly check their health bars, and often there's one or two n00bs letting everything hit him just because "Lawl we haz healer y I care?".

Support = people playing GW2 will have to learn the meaning of surviving themselves, AND helping others. Since there's no wiping mentality, I think people will be more inclined to help out reviving and supporting. In a WoW raid if someone dies, it's either leaving him dead, or wasting a BR and perhaps have the guy die within 5 seconds again because no healer picked him up in time. If 25 people goes down to 10, everyone starts to give up and the healers still left can't handle them all. It's a clusterduck of wrongs.

In GW2, you monitor your own survival AND others can help you. Reviving, protecting, mitigating, standing between your fellow player and the monster because then the attacks WILL hit you, giving your friend a chance to be supported up in health/pick it up himself.

I welcome the supportive style of gameplay, the lack of roles set in stone and diversity in the professions...In short, I think the GW2 gamestyle = the future.

---------- Post added 2011-11-12 at 12:20 PM ----------

but if there is no healer, what will all the females do?

Yeah, let's not go down that road. Infracted. -Edge

Probably bust your head in in PVP. I know I would.

---------- Post added 2011-11-12 at 12:26 PM ----------

My wife and I have one reason above all else for always playing tanks and healers. We can't trust anyone else to do such an important job. So we approve of this system.

See we both would much rather play a hybrid style character (Druid and Paladin where our mains) Where we dps, tank or heal/support as needed but that doesn't work in EQ or most MMOs anymore really.

I also get the feeling this system will really make the bads and the goods stand out.

Same here! I've always preferred DPS, especially rogue/Feral druid or hunter, but I grew so tired of dying simply from bad healing management or a tank dying constantly due to bad setup and tacts (third Stonecore boss, hello!!) so I decided to level healers/tanks and use them the first weeks of each new tier in order to see the content at my terms, not the n00b DK tank using intellect plate or the healer using agility leather. Then as the tier goes smoother and the bads have stopped doing them, I can experience them as dps.

And GW2 will be amazing at chasing away bad players...no I'm not a mean spirited gal, I'm usually very positive, but there ARE bad players and they can honestly ruin the experience for other players. I don't take the MMO I play seriously in the sense that I LIVE it, but I do take my own performance seriously since it's about working with others and as such pulling your own weight. There's just too much room for "Lolz" in peoples performance in WoW.

---------- Post added 2011-11-12 at 12:30 PM ----------

You sound like the type of player I would always want in my group. Too many times I find myself stuck with recount chases, the type of people that wouldn't attack the bonespikes because they would stuff up their rotation. then gloat about how much dps they're doing and how everyone else are scrubs.

Indeed...I hope DPS meters will be banned in GW2, since surviving and working together/making sure OTHERS live is way better than getting e-peen rating over your DPS...

I remember Marrowgar myself, we had 1 rogue and 1 warrior that would NEVER attack the spikes, even when Marro was at 23% and the few DPS still alive beside them were being spiked, they stayed to e-peen instead of help....and then they would spam recounts. I was a hunter and even though helping on spikes, me and the other hunter in the raid was top...so they weren't even chasing top positions.

No more of that in GW2, and it's amazing!

[dokono]

I don't know about this, honestly. As someone who really enjoys actively healing/supporting more than pewpewing, the fact that GW2 doesn't even come with the option to do this full-time is disappointing. Yeah, they're getting rid of the trinity, but essentially what they're doing is nixing tanks/healers and giving everyone else (DPSers) a couple of raid-oriented CDs to blow when forced to. The game looks great from what I've seen so far, but this sounds lame to me.

[Snow White]

Well, look on the bright side, there are plenty of games that allow you to tank already. Play them and enjoy them .

[Ynna]

I don't know about this, honestly. As someone who really enjoys actively healing/supporting more than pewpewing, the fact that GW2 doesn't even come with the option to do this full-time is disappointing. Yeah, they're getting rid of the trinity, but essentially what they're doing is nixing tanks/healers and giving everyone else (DPSers) a couple of raid-oriented CDs to blow when forced to. The game looks great from what I've seen so far, but this sounds lame to me.

I felt like this at first. And in a way I still do. It does look like they scrapped Heal and Tank and just gave the DPS classes more stuff to fill that gap. But you can still go very much support if you want to. A Mace/Shield - Staff Guardian has very little skills that don't support the group. Almost every attack has a secondary thing that helps people. Or as I like to see it, almost all of my Support moves do a little damage as well.

In the end it all comes down on how fun the gameplay is, and how "supportive" it feels.

[Askyl]

I love support. That's why I play healer in MMOs, support/healers in HoN and always go for the supportish spells in both multiplayer and singleplayer MMOs where everyone else goes full nuke.

I will play elementalist support!

[dokono]

My fear with this is that support will be largely unnecessary, though. If the encounters in GW2 aren't balanced around teams bringing a Guardian or someone else with a lot of support-oriented skills, then someone trying to play in that capacity will A.) not have enough to do and/or B.) be gimping their team.

[Muzjhath]

Every class has support and control skills.
The difference might be that some players might have to switch weaponsets on some fights instead of the weapons they enjoy the most.
Say, a Greatsword / Longbow Warrior will have to go Sword and Warhorn / Sword and Shield for some fights.