The New Priest Talent Tiers

[Mazi]

In that case we already don't have cookie cutter specs. Load of specs have a few points left over to put into pvp/highly situational talents which mean that under certain (albeit often uncommon) situations that spec will outperform alternatives.

If Blizz genuinely wanted to make people think about talents and avoid cookie cutters they would have more talent choices, but ones that mattered more, so for example you had to choose between really useful single target, aoe or efficiency talents. Instead we get a system where our choices are slimmed down to 1 choice every 15 levels. Which just kills the feeling that your character develops along a path you choose because of the level of spec homogeneity.

I agree. This honestly really reminds me of the change made from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2. You had TONS of choices in ME1 to develop your char in different areas and then in ME2 you only get to choose and improve upon abilities, and not stats. It feels far less epic from a leveling standpoint.

ME1


ME2



HOWEVER

This new system is going to be far more beneficial for everyone, including Blizz, when it comes to end game raiding and pvp. Why? A few reasons.
1. Far less pvp nerfs because of pve and vice versa
2. Chance for more awesome abilities (like void shift) because you can limit what can be used with them (ie what GC said about Rogue tier 1)
3. We do get a choice.

Right now for a Holy Priest our choices are all lackluster... SoL... ToL... Darkness... Veiled Shadows... I mean, really? That's it?


I'm very excited for what 5.0 is bringing to the table, and even more excited to see the full picture (core/spec abilities).


Remember, most of you aren't leveling besides up to lvl 90. You are given abilities as you level and increases, you just don't have to put points into them. I know, personally, whenever I level a toon I really don't care about those stupid stat upgrades and damage bonuses, I care about getting the core abilities for the tree, and overall that will make it all a more fun experience.

[Deleted]

I dont like lvling at all

But yea i really dig these new tree's, choices are more fun than put 1 talent in a tree for 2% more healing as its the most obvious thing to take.
Every tier seems to have a more personal playstyle choice cept for t2 talents.

T2
Body and Soul, i doubt that any priest will take one of the other 2 for PvE unless its like atramedes (levitate when on gong duty) and u dont have a kitty/rogue/ghost wolf but Body and Soul can do the same as its faster burst but short duration.

Phantasim is a no brainer for PvP arena/RBG's while Body and Soul can be nice with normal BG's as there u dont get focussed as hard as in arena/RBG's.

T4 is very depending on T6 imo still makes it a personal playstyle type of talent tier.
Its very interesting how things will work out and how much will be changed during beta testing as our 2 T6 CD's are pretty strong specially combined with T4 talents.

[Crummy]

Great post all in all OP.
I love your thoughts on this and I agree completely. 3 and 5 looks like they're not fully done yet, and maybe we'll see some tweaks in the future.

I'm not against Shadow orbs becomming a "holy power" type of idea for priests. That would actually make more sence to me.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

1. Far less pvp nerfs because of pve and vice versa

Can you explain why?
I see the oposite happening... What is the difference between a PvE Shadow and a PvP Shadow?
Yes right, 6 Talent points.
Sure there will be baseline abilites that are meant for PvP (Psychich horror maybe etc)
But! How are you supposed to balance damage in PvP and PvE in MoP days? Theres nearly no damage abilities you can change, because both have just about everything! There will be no little gimmick abilites a PvP players has, that you can buff, that a PvE player doesn't have.
(example: rouge doing more dmg after comming out of stealth or something like that)
I see balancing inside speccs getting harder rather than easier. (Unless they make seperate speccs for PvE and PvP as it used to be, would make stuff easier, I wouldn't care much)

[kombucha]

Disc:
T1: Hmm, probably tendrils, Psyfiend also tempting but need to find out if it works with glyph
T2: Body and Soul, though I expect they will nerf it slightly (to 40% or something)
T3: Either star or AA, personally not a fan of the RNG in FD,CL
T4: Depends on fight
T5: Again depends on final numbers, with current numbers PI
T6: Totally depends on the fight, though Vow looks a little weak

Shadow:
T1: Tendrils
T2: Phantasm (lots of people are undervaluing this I feel, I spam Fade like it's going out of fashion in raids)
T3: Divine star cos it's shiny.... and glowy... and ooooh
T4: Final prayer
T5: PI with current numbers
T6: Depends on the fight

But how often do you find yourself needing to strip a snare/root in a raid environment? Especially considering you can dispel any that are magic from yourself baseline. I'm sorry but Phantasm is and always will be an awesome PvP talent, but if you spec it for raiding instead of Body & Soul, you'll get laughed at.

[Vook]

My thoughts for the new talents are reserved for when they're out of alpha, preferably late into beta. No sense in whining/speculating over something that's undoubtedly going to change before release.

[Purple]

Tier 1:
I like the potential here.

Tier 2:
I like everything but Path of the Devout. Mind you the idea is great in theory, but Levitation breaks on Damage. Unless it does something about that break on damage I don't see it being a big thing, because what point does it serve if not in combat? We have land and air mounts for general travel.

Tier 3:
I like that they thought about separate effects in Shadowform. In all honesty, if they really wanted to give us choice even the obviously Holy talents (in any tier) such as Divine Star would have a separate effect when cast in Shadowform instead of kicking you out. However, that's too much so meh.

Tier 4:
All of these are potentially useful. Desperate Prayer less so for Shadow Priests if it kicks you out, but, I know Human Shadow Priests used to use Desperate Prayer to effect back when it was a Racial. It would be nice if one of these had a more Shadowy theme, since they all seem disc or shadow themed.

Tier 5:
Making us choose between an execute phase or a cooldown or the Passive seems like you're definitely going to be sacrificing something somewhere. This one seems the most likely to be min-maxed end game for a Shadow Priest, but maybe others disagree.

Tier 6:
Void Shift is a strange Talent. I see the use but I'd never take it over VD (not VE anymore? ).

[Mazi]

With all of the talents across the board I hope that raid encounters have lots of CC on us and things to be CC'ed

[Kelesti]

Tier 3:
I like that they thought about separate effects in Shadowform. In all honesty, if they really wanted to give us choice even the obviously Holy talents (in any tier) such as Divine Star would have a separate effect when cast in Shadowform instead of kicking you out. However, that's too much so meh.

Tier 4:
All of these are potentially useful. Desperate Prayer less so for Shadow Priests if it kicks you out, but, I know Human Shadow Priests used to use Desperate Prayer to effect back when it was a Racial. It would be nice if one of these had a more Shadowy theme, since they all seem disc or shadow themed.

First I want to start on these two: There's a 9/10 chance these won't break Shadowform.
Desperate Prayer is a survival cooldown, and Divine Star does damage. Considering now they can actually limit what spells Shadow learns, there's going to be quite a drop in "cool shiny toy I can never use".

If running with a Holy Priest/Druid healer combo in 10s, I'd think the lay on hands of Void Shift would outweigh Vampiric Dominance as a Shadow Priest on the utility front. And as for Path of the Devout, considering it only works on yourself, I can see Levitate changing.

[sinisterwyvern]

I myself am looking forward to a quick Void Shift into Desperate prayer. I think those two work quite well together. I wasn't too sure on some of the tiers as a full healing priest but I'll work it out as it comes along.

[Kelesti]

With all of the talents across the board I hope that raid encounters have lots of CC on us and things to be CC'ed

i'm thinking with Mists having a higher emphasis on Scenarios than "Raid" Content (speculation at this point. But a 25 man scenario is still a scenario), it opens the door to lots of things going on that can be masss CC'd, kited creatively, tanked by Shadow Priests, etc, instead of "Trash, boss that's immune to half of your cool talents anyways, loot, repeat" that the current raid design's fallen into

[Brosemon]

Path of the Devout is gonna be the best talent there, ok.

[Kelesti]

Path of the Devout is gonna be the best talent there, ok.

If Levitate lets us have an actual float animation instead of running on air, I'd be inclined to agree.

[Mazi]

If Levitate lets us have an actual float animation instead of running on air, I'd be inclined to agree.

omg I know.... Have you ever Levitated a Demo Warlock in Metamorphasis? It's amazing (and maybe an easter egg for what's to come?) - you DO float, feet waggling and all

[kombucha]

omg I know.... Have you ever Levitated a Demo Warlock in Metamorphasis? It's amazing (and maybe an easter egg for what's to come?) - you DO float, feet waggling and all

lawl old hat. A raiding friend of mine used to have a macro that would whisper me asking me for levitate whenever he went into demon form.

[Zuziza]

I think there's a simple reason why it feels like it doesn't solve the "cookie cutter problem" that Blizz was trying to address. From the fights we've seen before, Shadow doesn't really need to switch our CC/passive/heal options. Once we can figure out the stat scaling for 5.0, we'll very likely have 4 set talents, varying mostly if it's 10man (fewer buffs/options among the raid) or 25man (more likely to have all classes and more specs represented).

From a shadow perspective, we're only on the fence for any given talent option because it's a numbers game. Twist of Fate vs. Power Infusion depends on boss health pools and the %damage increase for ToF. Divine Star vs. Archangel depends on exactly how they're changing Evangelism/Shadow Orbs/Archangel. All the other ones don't do any increase to damage, so simply put, they're like the boring extra points you put into either phantasm or Inner Sanctum. Will they vary? Sure, but because they're leftovers and we're not going to really care about them.

I don't want my talents options to feel like leftovers, and looking at them now, that's all they are.
- In tier 1, tendrils might be interesting, but unless a fight specifically calls for an AOE root, it's only marginally useful because it's otherwise... a normal root. Yay, we're at the starting line for CC's with other classes.
- I've never had a fight where my dying/living depended on moving faster than regular speed, so tier 2 seems like it won't matter at all to me. It'd be somewhat useful, but in my perspective, it doesn't matter which one I pick.
- Looking at tier 4, it's just depended on raid comp and healers' competency. If the healers are doing their job well, the only good option is Final Prayer because it makes their job slightly easier in crunch times without interrupting Shadow's job, which is to DPS (in case anyone's gotten iffy on that).
- Tier 6 is yet another heal option. To use either Vow of Unity or Void Shift, you have to target a friendly raid member, wasting a GCD, and it doesn't change much for the healers at all because they still have to heal you. Needing to do either one as Shadow creates the same problem we already have with Divine Hymn and Hymn of Hope: we're the ones expected to do it first so healers don't have to. This trend is beginning to aggravate me more and more, not because it's useful for the raid, but because we're supposed to be a goddamn DPS spec. It shouldn't be that Shadow is a DPS, with the caveat that they sacrifice DPS on every damn fight to use CD's that at least one healer is likely to have. The only option where you don't worry about a lost GCD (equating to maintaining your DPS) is Vampiric Dominance. Sure one to three GCD's in a fight shouldn't matter too much, but I dislike that shadow is being singled out for that sort of option, especially when that role is already being cemented in raids.

Anyway, back to the cookie cutter issue. Blizz didn't fix the cookie cutter issue, they just either removed talents everyone takes anyway or they added them to training while you level. It made the cookie cutter part of your spec. Then they made a bunch of leftover talents (at least for Shadow) and acted like it'll be a real difficult choice for us. The only reason I'm going to have to make a choice is math crunching for Tiers 3 and 5, and that isn't going to vary by fight. The other ones really don't matter for Shadow DPS, but I'll end up going with passive heal because it's not my job to actively heal, and I'll do a /roll for the others because they don't really matter for PVE.

The differences between Shadow specs chosen should be for a more valid reason than just because.

[Purple]

First I want to start on these two: There's a 9/10 chance these won't break Shadowform.
Desperate Prayer is a survival cooldown

A survival cooldown that kicked you out of Shadowform for the entire span of its time as a Priest Racial spell.

, and Divine Star does damage.

True. Then again, so do several other Holy Spells that kick you out of Shadowform.

Considering now they can actually limit what spells Shadow learns, there's going to be quite a drop in "cool shiny toy I can never use".

It would be nice if that's exactly the viewpoint they had. I'm just not going to get my hopes up until they show me that they're actually going to take that mindset. As is, even non-healing spells can kick you out of Shadowform if they're Holy. Desperate Prayer heals, so I doubt they'll treat it any different from Gift of the Naaru. Things like Divine Star may do damage, but so does Smite and Smite still kicks us out.

I'd love it if you were right.

If running with a Holy Priest/Druid healer combo in 10s, I'd think the lay on hands of Void Shift would outweigh Vampiric Dominance as a Shadow Priest on the utility front.

I think there's room for speculation if a glyph or some such can limit the life it takes from you somehow. As is, Voidshift has a lot more risk to it (for greater gain, mind you) than Vampiric Dominance.

And as for Path of the Devout, considering it only works on yourself, I can see Levitate changing.

I'd love to see Levitate changing. That's yet to be seen.

-

I fully agree on the Levitation animation when moving being something I'd love.

Path of the Devout is gonna be the best talent there, ok.

It still breaks on damage, barring changes. 25% extra speed doesn't amount to anything when you can't use it. If you're just moving around in general, out of combat, you have plenty of quick and faster options in the form of Ground and Air mounts.

In PvP and PvE combat settings the other two options are always preferable unless Levitation breaking on Damage changes.

[angelx7x]

im not a fan of this at all will be boring leveling will be more lame one of the huge things leveling was getting talent points now there will be huge voids of getting nothing i think they need to make those things spec specific so you get more abilities to choose from so like 3 shadow abilities then all the tiers then have one for disc and holy and same for other classes would feel more epic

you will not be getting nothing at all while leveling, you will get spells and such as you level, you just won't have to pick where to spend points

---------- Post added 2011-10-28 at 04:39 PM ----------

I think Path of the Devout seems really awesome! ;D but I don't really like that archangel will consume orbs ;/ they are RNG enough to get -.- Will Vampiric Dominance heal me + 3 others or just 3 others? else I can kiss my soloing days goodbye ;(

they are changing how you get shadow orbs, since they are a new resource for shadow priests, more like holy power now

[ibprofin]

I have a few questions about some of the new talents, this seems like the place to ask them.

Angelic Bulwark increases the effectiveness of your shield effects on yourself. Does this stack with Body and Soul? Do we get 78% movement speed increase?

As for Void Shift, the wording doesn't explain what happens when the spell ends. Lets say the tank has 25% hp and you have 100%. You switch, obviously you have his hp and he has yours. Now after the effect ends does his health switch to what yours currently is, or what it was? Either way is the 25% done before or after you switch health back? What I'm asking is do you have to heal yourself during the effect so that when you switch back the tank will have full health?

Void Tendrils concern me, because it says "Killing the tendrils will cancel the effect." How useful is this in raiding scenarios with large amounts of aoe damage? Will they have a lot of health or very little? (This one is mostly speculation).

In From Light Comes Darkness, the shadow section says you have a 6% chance to make your next MB instant and not cost orbs. Is the damage done by MB equal the the number of orbs on you currently or 3? Does the effect stack? Because I really hate the thought of having to stop a MF just to cast MB instantly. Loss of DPS I think.

These are the questions I have, speculate please.

[Mazi]

Angelic Bulwark increases the effectiveness of your shield effects on yourself. Does this stack with Body and Soul? Do we get 78% movement speed increase?

Nice catch, but my guess is it only means the absorb effects, not the entirety of effect you gain from the shield, ie B&S - otherwise that combo would be just totally out there for both PvP & PvE lol