Stat Priority come 4.3 for Holy Paladins.

[kiristus]

And my absorbs would be roughly 11% stronger than yours per spell I cast, not counting my trinket proc which puts me at an additional 10% strength in bubbles from each of my heals, Foul Gift of the Demon Lord. High proc rate, 45 second ICD, lasts 20 seconds.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 06:37 PM ----------

So, roughly, my absorbs are 16% stronger than yours at any given time. And actually, my mastery benefits from Light of Dawn, which can be cast while moving, same with Word of Glory and Holy Shock.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 06:41 PM ----------

I actually have, Ears. The haste is what I felt comfortable at. Which is roughly 1,000 haste. The mastery is also my personal preference which is ~2k. I'm at 859 haste and 1620 mastery so.

You've also neglected to include Light of Dawn, Word of Glory and Holy Shock in your.. equation, which.. may I remind you benefit from mastery. Both of you, Tatsu and Ears

[Deleted]

Are you really suggesting that having a mastery proc trinket makes mastery better overall? What if it provided crit instead of mastery? Would you stack crit instead?

Also there is few situations where you must move constantly, higher haste makes it easier to pause and slot a heal in. On raggy HC I can fit 1-2 heals in while moving as we run from molten elementals, I would gladly have each of them do 20% less healing as long as I didn't have to stop moving for .1 seconds longer each time to cast.

Logical premise and empirical evidence given of haste being useful during movement periods, but you'll probably ignore it.

[kiristus]

Also, it was previously worse, you are correct. But prior to it, Holy Radiance wasn't given a cast time or the benefit from mastery. Not to mention that in 4.3, Protector of the innocent or Judgments of the Pure doesn't transfer to the Beacon of Light anymore. Sure, Holy light, flash and divine proc Daybreak for the more often you cast the abilities affecting it.. but 7% on top of rng is pretty minuscule

[Tatsu]

And my absorbs would be roughly 11% stronger than yours per spell I cast, not counting my trinket proc which puts me at an additional 10% strength in bubbles from each of my heals, Foul Gift of the Demon Lord. High proc rate, 45 second ICD, lasts 20 seconds.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 06:37 PM ----------

So, roughly, my absorbs are 16% stronger than yours at any given time. And actually, my mastery benefits from Light of Dawn, which can be cast while moving, same with Word of Glory and Holy Shock.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 06:41 PM ----------

I actually have, Ears. The haste is what I felt comfortable at. Which is roughly 1,000 haste. The mastery is also my personal preference which is ~2k. I'm at 859 haste and 1620 mastery so.

You've also neglected to include Light of Dawn, Word of Glory and Holy Shock in your.. equation, which.. may I remind you benefit from mastery. Both of you, Tatsu and Ears

And you have neglected to include beacon in yours. Which mastery doesn't affect at all. But benefits strongly from haste.

[kiristus]

Never did I suggest specifically that a mastery proc trinket makes mastery better overall. Nor have I mentioned crit was any where near as good a throughput stat compared to Haste and Mastery. Just fyi, I can fit the same amount of heals in while moving as you.. E.g Word of Glory, Infusion + Flash, Holy Shock, Light of Dawn if applicable while running from molten elementals. Also, the difference is ~.2 going from my prior amount of haste to my current amount of mastery on the PTR.
And what about "Logical premise and empirical evidence given of haste being useful during movement periods"? You haven't linked or posted any unless you count that.. equation you made earlier.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 06:56 PM ----------

Yes, you're right Tatsu. However, as I mentioned in a specific example on the PTR. I healed Ultraxion25 before receiving any ridiculous buff from the mechanics (like 90 seconds into the encounter before we wiped) I delt ~59kHPS and my healing looked something like
1: Holy Radiance
2: Illuminated healing
3: Light of Dawn

[Deleted]

Before I say anything else (which I might not cause this has gone off topic and is getting nowhere), you know instant casts benefit from haste yes?

[kiristus]

Critting a 10k with Holy Radiance on 25 people giving each player roughly a 3k absorb... on top of Light of Dawn and Holy Shock, the effects from these spells that utilize Illuminated healing mind you, far out weigh beacon for heavy aoe encounters, that's just logical thinking. Now, the exact same thing can be applied to 10 man however, Holy Radiances initial heal isn't as diminished due to it not having to heal an extra 15 people so the bubble is even stronger on 10 man encounters, As an example on Warlord Zon'ozz 10 man, Ultraxion.. Morchok.. Spine of Deathwing (when applicable) Yor'sahj the Unsleeping (when applicable)and Warmaster Blackhorn are all encounters where mastery is going to be significantly superior to haste, that's 5/8 encounters in the instance that I know for certain.

[Kenerek]

So does this mean, in 4.3, Mastery applies to everyone who is healed by Holy Radiance, not just the primary target?

[kiristus]

This isn't getting off topic at all actually, and yes I do realize the effects Haste has on the GCD.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 07:04 PM ----------

Yes, Kenerek it does. The upfront heal.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 07:08 PM ----------

The Initial heal for 25 people is actually ~8k on a crit not counting conviction or wings, which mind you also affects mastery. so my mistake.

[Deleted]

Oh okay that's fine then since it's your thread

But yeah you seem to think mastery provides more benefit to throughput for LoD, WoG, and HS - I don't see why. Haste affects the number of casts you get off in a given time frame just the same regardless of if some or all are instant.

[kiristus]

You're right. I believe tatsu has roughy 1.3k haste on my current character on the PTR. which lowers the gcd by how much? maybe he could fit in an additional 1 - 2 max heals compared to me during movement prone encounters like heroic Ragnaros and even still, my heals will be ~11% stronger at all times.. keeping in mind Avenging Wrath and Conviction increase healing done dramatically and by extent, the bubbles that the heals produce.

[Deleted]

Why are you so obsessed with your heals being stronger? Why is that better than being able to cast more heals? See the little bit of maths I did with the numbers you gave me, and keep in mind I didn't even account for mastery not affecting BoL or HR (which would make a pretty large difference to the numbers, tipping it even further in haste's favour).

1-2 heals more than you is just made up numbers, you didn't give a time frame.

Avenging Wrath and Conviction increase healing done by the same proportion regardless of if you are mastery heavy or haste heavy. As I've showed you, haste (currently) increases throughput by more than mastery, thus avenging wrath and conviction increase your throughput more when you are haste heavy.

[darkwarrior42]

Regarding Haste vs. Mastery:
Haste: 128.05716 haste rating = 1% haste. Benefits every spell cast by a paladin until you reach the GCD cap.
Masetry: 179.28004 mastery rating = 1 Mastery = 1.5% absorb. Does not affect Beacon of Light, and a few other heals.
2000 mastery = 11.16 mastery = +16.74% absorbtion.
2000 haste = +15.61% haste.

Now, let's assume you're actually making use of the beacon. With haste, your healing is increased by 15.61%. With mastery, your healing is only increased by 11.16% (the heal you cast is bolstered, but the transferred heal isn't).

Regarding Holy Radiance: Holy Radiance now benefits from mastery, yes. It also benefits even more strongly from haste, since it now has a cast time. If haste increases the number of ticks you get out if, that means Holy Radiance now double dips on haste, getting both a faster cast time *and* increased healing per cast.

Aside: Can you cast holy radiance on multiple people at once? Do the respective auras stack? 2.5 sec cast reduced by haste vs. 3 sec duration. If yes on both, haste will be incredibly strong on Holy Radiance. The first haste breakpoint on the new Holy Radiance will come at 16.67% haste, or 2135 haste rating. That will increase the HPS of Holy Radiance at all times by 16.67% (though casting faster), and increase the hot by 33%. An equivalent amount of mastery rating would increase the strength of Holy Radiance by 17.86%; about 1.2% more, but with no additional boost to the hot (yes, the shield procs on the hot, but getting more of the hots out increases HPS as surely as strengthening the hot).

Regarding Haste in general: Aside from raw HPS, Haste proves superior in many situations because of what it is. You run ~1000 haste rating; that should give you about a 2.14 sec cast time on holy radiance/holy light/divine light, assuming judgements of the pure + raid haste aura, but no other outside haste sources. Someone with double that, 2000 haste rating, would have a cast time of 1.99 sec. Sounds like a small difference... but what if you have 6 sec to cast before needing to move, or before some big attack happens? The higher haste allows 3 casts, the lower haste allows only two. Over that short time frame, the higher haste value yields 50% additional spells; even if each spell is weaker, it's significantly more healing. Those situations sound contrived, but happen all the time.

Regarding haste and movement: When you move, your options are limited. When you stop moving, it takes time to get off another spell. Assuming zero haste from any source, if you cast an instant spell as you stop moving and then immediately start casting a cast time spell, there will be 4 sec between heals landing (1.5 sec GCD, 2.5 sec cast time). Every bit of haste reduces that significantly, and those large gaps can be very painful to a tank (particularly if the tank gets a poor avoidance streak).

[kiristus]

Actually, No. It takes roughly 774 haste and JoTP to get the final additional tick added to Holy Radiance. And it's a 25% increase to its' healing done from the tick effect, not 33%. Being as it IS a 3 second HoT by default, you cannot adds a lot of ticks to the spell without having a ridiculous amount of haste and or haste buffs, E.g Heroism/TimeWarp/Bloodlust Divine Favor or trinket uses / procs.
Simply having 16.67% haste doesn't increase the amount of which Holy Radiance heals by that percentage of haste... that's just blaspheme.

Also, 1640 Mastery Rating gives 9.04 mastery + the base 8, putting the total amount of absorptions at 25% for all direct healing.

Keep in mind that I'm not abolishing Haste from my suggested stat priority. I am shooting for at least 1k haste and then at least 2k mastery, then more into haste.

"Why are you so obsessed with your heals being stronger?" I'm a Holy Paladin.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 07:41 PM ----------

"keep in mind I didn't even account for mastery not affecting BoL or HR (which would make a pretty large difference to the numbers, tipping it even further in haste's favour)"
For Beacon of Light, yes, it would probably further Hastes favor. Holy Radiance? No, I don't think it would. I see where you're coming from but I don't think you see where I'm coming from.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 07:43 PM ----------

And I honestly don't see how you came to the conclusion you're presenting me with regarding those numbers Darkwarrior42.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 07:59 PM ----------

And not to mention the T13 4 set, increasing healing done by Holy Radiance by 20% on top of conviction.

[Skulldancer]

I'm Not saying NOTHING lol

[kiristus]

.....Okay?

[Skulldancer]

.....Okay?

LoL Tatsu and Nillo would understand LOL

[Deleted]

I got bored and wanted to see the haste we'd need for different HR ticks (since we keep discussing HR and haste) for 4.3 (presumably there is loads of these floating about already but made one myself), assuming HR ticks are affected by haste.

Yes it's coloured horribly, but you can't complain it's hard to read.



Lilac highlights are the things I'm guessing will be reachable if we get haste on enough dragon soul items. I wouldn't mind getting hold of SoW before 4.3, 3048 haste + DF + BL + SoW looks like it could be a whole bundle of fun

[kiristus]

I don't really care to be honest. Tell them that in a private message, not me in my thread.

---------- Post added 2011-10-31 at 09:29 PM ----------

Talk about overkill.. pretty sure there isn't a fight were you'd need to close Divine Favor, shard of WoE and bl all at the same time to keep everyone alive. Maybe 1 healing heroic Morchok?

[Deleted]

Well you might not need to, but are *you* gunna pass up the chance for that much aoe healing?