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  1. #201
    Why would a game that is striving for innovation in a particular genre want to incorporate anything that is currently considered a norm within that genre?
    Originally Posted by Tigole
    I'm not so sure endgame players would like the face of the game if everyone had instant access to all of the content. There is something to be said for progression and the sense of accomplishment. Don't get me wrong, we have to be careful not to create a brick wall for new people, but I think there is a balance to be struck here.

  2. #202
    Stood in the Fire Vlad Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumlyD View Post
    Why would a game that is striving for innovation in a particular genre want to incorporate anything that is currently considered a norm within that genre?
    Totally concur. I am pleased to see both innovation and the rebirth of the importance of the individual even within group play. Raids in my opinion stretched thin any importance to an individual's participation. How did you really know the one heal you landed was the game changer, the one blow, the one spell???? You don't truthfully but it is a disguised cooperation where all are made to feel like they equally accomplished a task all the while one individual gets the power to dole out the rewards. GW2 allows you to take on all roles in a setting that has no clear definition of when, how, who or where you need to apply the vast array of skills you have and this is the beauty of the system and why this game does not need mass or masked cooperative things like raids.

  3. #203
    Mechagnome Shadowviper's Avatar
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    Personally to me anyway, I don't mind any "WoW definition of Raids". I believe ArentNet know what they are doing. I'd rather Elite DE than Instanced Raids. Imagine walking to the DE with 10 of your good friends. Announce in Chat about taking down this huge boss thingy. It goes from a group of 10 to a group of 50. The Boss gets more powerful and incredibly more angry. You don't know what hes gonna do now since it is 50 people instead of a measly 10 or 25. I myself feel that it is more epic for a fight that can change at anytime by the amount of people there instead of a Standard "WoW Raid" Boss.
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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by RumlyD View Post
    Why would a game that is striving for innovation in a particular genre want to incorporate anything that is currently considered a norm within that genre?
    yet they still have (instanced) dungeons, yet there will still be quests (even revamped as DEs, they're still quests if ), etc.

    no one ever said they had to copy paste the current raid concept, rather i'd be curious to see what (-instanced-) raids could look like with what GW2 is bringing already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad Morbius View Post
    How did you really know the one heal you landed was the game changer, the one blow, the one spell???? You don't truthfully but it is a disguised cooperation where all are made to feel like they equally accomplished a task all the while one individual gets the power to dole out the rewards.
    that ain't going to change in GW2.
    Last edited by sacrypheyes; 2011-12-24 at 08:02 PM.

  5. #205
    I was originally going to say something about you and your posts, because i noticed a lot of your posts are WoW based questions for GW2. "Recount, addons, raids", etc. But it's good to see that you don't just want GW2 to be a WoW clone. Raiding IMO isn't needed in GW2. Neither are addons or anything related to Gearscore or recount or any damage or gear meter.

  6. #206
    Didn't they say they kept 5 mans because anymore is too much chaos? Since the game is about watching what's on screen (actions rather than UI), too many people would result in too many spells. Likewise, I think they also stated that having say 10 mans would make 5 mans feel lesser, and thus the more important content would be 10 mans in the eyes of others.

  7. #207
    They said max party size will be from the start, and will forever remain, 5. You don't need groups of 100 people to kill that big dragon who wants to eat your soul. You and everyone else form impromptu parties and will be able to kill things that require more people without actually grouping up. The 5 man cap on party size is so that people can have fun together in small groups and to run dungeons.

    Since players will share EXP and loot for shared kills, regardless of being in the same party or not, we don't need large parties to kill things. What this does is create a social aspect where players actually help each other out because they will be rewarded for doing so, regardless of being in that players party or not.

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-27 at 10:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitobunny View Post
    Didn't they say they kept 5 mans because anymore is too much chaos? Since the game is about watching what's on screen (actions rather than UI), too many people would result in too many spells. Likewise, I think they also stated that having say 10 mans would make 5 mans feel lesser, and thus the more important content would be 10 mans in the eyes of others.
    Exactly. Decimates player cooperation and creates that "elitism" sect on a realm where people who only run the 5 mans are inferior to those uber pro people doing the 10 mans. Look at WoW. 10 mans are seen as less to the 25 man raiders and 25 mans seem unnecessary to the 10 man raiders. Bad idea and I'm glad they're avoiding it and breaking the mold. This isn't WoW, people. Let's get that idea in your heads =)

  8. #208
    Stood in the Fire Lannden's Avatar
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    For the longest time I was totally against this game because of a perceived lack of endgame content due to not having some sort of raid/gear treadmill. But then as patch 4.3 dropped I started to think and we were having a real hard time getting healers to show up for the raid due to the holidays. We ended up just not doing anything fun or productive those nights. "why do I raid if the loot is just a means to an end for me?" I began to think. It is all about doing fun and challenging content with my friends to me, not the loot. Why can't an MMO have some sort of challenging dungeon content without the need for gear or the perfect group make up?

    Then, of all things, the Christmas event in WoW started and I went to do the Greench. The new Greench is actually a really fun and active event that the whole community that can get into. Its not perfect and becomes really easy at prime time but its still a lot of fun. It dawned on me this is what DE's in GW2 are supposed to be just without the flaws thanks to the scaling. I also remembered back to the AQ gate opening and how awesome that was, a hell of a lot better than the raid even, this game will have a world full those.

    You don't need raids to have fun or be challenged in a game, that and the gear treadmill are an outdated model, at least to me.

  9. #209
    Bloodsail Admiral Cuchulainn's Avatar
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    that ain't going to change in GW2.
    That's one of the most uninformed statements I've heard in this entire thread. Let's be honest, you're just here arguing with people even though you don't know much about the game at all. One person will not hand out rewards, and because of the lack of having to organize a group around a trinity, then cooperative play will mean a lot more than just "Player A smacks enemy, Player B protects player A and C, and player C heals player A and B". How you can assume it'll be the same in GW2 is beyond me, unless you're just here to flame.

    everyone getting loot + everyone healing themselves and supporting others, all the while doling out damage = NOT. THE. SAME.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuchulainn View Post
    That's one of the most uninformed statements I've heard in this entire thread. Let's be honest, you're just here arguing with people even though you don't know much about the game at all. One person will not hand out rewards, and because of the lack of having to organize a group around a trinity, then cooperative play will mean a lot more than just "Player A smacks enemy, Player B protects player A and C, and player C heals player A and B". How you can assume it'll be the same in GW2 is beyond me, unless you're just here to flame.

    everyone getting loot + everyone healing themselves and supporting others, all the while doling out damage = NOT. THE. SAME.
    my reply was more like about the first part (about how no one will ever know which move has been decisive for the win/loss), not the last which i let in the quote for i can't tell why.
    on a second read, i get it can be mistaking though.

  11. #211
    GW2 have raids, they're just not instanced.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Lannden View Post
    Then, of all things, the Christmas event in WoW started and I went to do the Greench. The new Greench is actually a really fun and active event that the whole community that can get into. Its not perfect and becomes really easy at prime time but its still a lot of fun. It dawned on me this is what DE's in GW2 are supposed to be just without the flaws thanks to the scaling. I also remembered back to the AQ gate opening and how awesome that was, a hell of a lot better than the raid even, this game will have a world full those.

    You don't need raids to have fun or be challenged in a game, that and the gear treadmill are an outdated model, at least to me.
    Welcome to the correct side!

    Seriously though, great post, and the kind I would link to the next time this argument comes up... which should be in a few hours or so. Raiding is like mountain climbing; you fight your way to the top, proud of your accomplishments and the trophies you earned along the way. Problem is, the minute the expac hits, everyone takes a ski-lift to meet you at the top, and your journeys begin again.

    Skip the mountain, raid the world. GW2 style.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    It's funny how the definition of a raid has changed. Now a raid means an instanced event with a fixed amount of people. But some might remember the awesome raids in Dark Age of Camelot where you could have over 100 players participating (not that they needed that many people).

    A raid requires lots of people. If you can't make it, get more people.
    This change happened as certain part of playerbase started to demand more challenging content. "Zerg more, with a bigger zerg" tends to get boring as a general concept, while controlled size of raid ensures that you can tailor content so that players don't get bored by simply getting a bigger zerg.

    GW2 tries to work around this by adding completely new abilities to world "raid" bosses as more players come to fight them (in addition to hp pool scaling). We shall see how well that approach works. We know that general concept works fairly well in a small, relatively controlled (size-wise) environment like that of diablo games.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Lannden View Post
    For the longest time I was totally against this game because of a perceived lack of endgame content due to not having some sort of raid/gear treadmill. But then as patch 4.3 dropped I started to think and we were having a real hard time getting healers to show up for the raid due to the holidays. We ended up just not doing anything fun or productive those nights. "why do I raid if the loot is just a means to an end for me?" I began to think. It is all about doing fun and challenging content with my friends to me, not the loot. Why can't an MMO have some sort of challenging dungeon content without the need for gear or the perfect group make up?

    Then, of all things, the Christmas event in WoW started and I went to do the Greench. The new Greench is actually a really fun and active event that the whole community that can get into. Its not perfect and becomes really easy at prime time but its still a lot of fun. It dawned on me this is what DE's in GW2 are supposed to be just without the flaws thanks to the scaling. I also remembered back to the AQ gate opening and how awesome that was, a hell of a lot better than the raid even, this game will have a world full those.

    You don't need raids to have fun or be challenged in a game, that and the gear treadmill are an outdated model, at least to me.
    Another one who has seen the light! ^_^ You will find much happiness and fun among friends in GW2. I quit WoW a little less than a year ago and couldn't be happier. Currently 42/50 in HoM and just sold a mini polar bear. 2300e in my pocket so I imagine I can do what I can to quickly get the last weapons and armor sets that I need to fill up my HoM =).

    Back on Topic though, I agree 100%. Raids and a gear treadmill are poor means of making your game seem "fun". It gives the mentality that you HAVE to log on and you HAVE to do that next raid and HAVE to buy that next expac so your purples can keep getting better and better.

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-27 at 08:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Foreverlad View Post
    Skip the mountain, raid the world. GW2 style.
    Inspirational. <3

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    The problem with raiding is developers invariably make it the main focus of their game. You bore yourself crazy leveling, then get to the "end game" hop on the gear treadmill and chase a carrot forever. Since GW2 doesn't have that crutch they're forced to make the entire game entertaining, instead of just wasting your time with tier after tier of more or less the same old shit.

    If it's challenging content you want, you'll still have that in 5 man explorable dungeons. To give you some perspective, the devs recently said a full clear, one shotting everything with a fast moving uber pro group should take you about 1 hour. So the average group of friends taking their time and carrying that one baddie friend we all have, you'll be looking at maybe 2 hrs imo. Which to me seems perfect.

    People just need to lose their old Wow mindsets.
    I wish I could somehow turn your post into a solid form that I could have sex with, you hit the nail on the head good sir.

    6 years ago when I was 19, living with my parents, had a job that was meh, and all the free time in the world I would think GW2 would be shit without raids. But now I am 26, have my own place, a career job, and nowhere near as much free time as I used to I am all for an MMO like GW2. I can no longer set aside the time needed to actively raid in MMO's these days, so I need an MMO where I can hop on for 1-3 hours and still enjoy myself instead of running around org bank waiting for Q's/raid invites.
    Last edited by Menkey; 2011-12-27 at 09:18 PM.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Menkey View Post
    I wish I could somehow turn your post into a solid form that I could have sex with, you hit the nail on the head good sir.

    6 years ago when I was 19, living with my parents, had a job that was meh, and all the free time in the world I would think GW2 would be shit without raids. But now I am 26, have my own place, a career job, and nowhere near as much free time as I used to I am all for an MMO like GW2. I can no longer set aside the time needed to actively raid in MMO's these days, so I need an MMO where I can hop on for 1-3 hours and still enjoy myself instead of running around org bank waiting for Q's/raid invites.
    Yeah Mif is quite an inspirational, informative voice on these forums. Glad to have him around.

  17. #217
    There's kind of an irony to DE's in the fact that the NPC's are initiating and we the players have to now play an reactive role to any boss/organization as opposed to the proactive roles players take in traditional mmo's such as WOW.

    I guess in GW2 bosses raid you!!!

  18. #218
    Mechagnome Shadowviper's Avatar
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    There is one thing I've always wondered as I played WoW raid. "Argh! I hate all life and want to kill it, but first I will go into this dungeon and sit here until a group of people comes and kill me!" I loved WoW raiding but I've always wondered why they just aren't outside pwning stuff and we have to run to them. Oh wait isn't that what GW2 and Dynamic Events are?
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  19. #219
    I would like to see raids in the game, but I do not think it will happen. The problem many people bring up is that raiding turns the game into a giant gearmill, why not solve that problem by offering rewards other than gear? Schematics, cool toys, special dyes. Even making raids part of larger, world wide dynamic events that require completion of the raid to finish.

    I would not miss the lootmill mechanic, but I would miss the thrill and challenge of working with a large group of friends to overcome real challenges.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    I would like to see raids in the game, but I do not think it will happen. The problem many people bring up is that raiding turns the game into a giant gearmill, why not solve that problem by offering rewards other than gear? Schematics, cool toys, special dyes. Even making raids part of larger, world wide dynamic events that require completion of the raid to finish.

    I would not miss the lootmill mechanic, but I would miss the thrill and challenge of working with a large group of friends to overcome real challenges.
    Why can't DE's be challenging? why can't you get your guild to meet in an area and run that DE together? (I'm planing to lead a crusade across the a zone in the game with my guild and see how much impact we can make on it).

    just because their not called raids doesn't mean they won't feel like it, kind of like how Damage/control/support is a reworked (and beter imo) version of the holy trinity.

    The only reason GW2 doesn't have instanced raiding is because they want to make the content easily assemble to anyone who wants to try it out, they don't want players to "wait around" for your group of 10-25 (using wow as a bases of comparison). I will admit I am a little bias on this subject, the fact being my guild could barley get a 10 man running. :P

    But I think raiders will be happy once they start finding the serious elite DE's , while I'll be happy just being that guy that hits the dragon watching the strategy of other players come toghter going like "woah cool stuff guild of extraordinary raiders"
    Last edited by SPeedy26; 2011-12-30 at 12:13 PM.

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