View Poll Results: So is it right?

Voters
1012. This poll is closed
  • Yes, it should go to top performers who don't have the item

    336 33.20%
  • No, your dumb and should not need of you have it.

    608 60.08%
  • Maybe, not sure.

    68 6.72%
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  1. #601
    The Lightbringer Darkfriend's Avatar
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    I find everyone saying "No its wrong" to be rather humorous. Wrong according to what? Your sense of fair play? Ok, maybe, but if its going off a personal opinion, then you can't hold others accountable to your personal standard.

    Wrong according to the rules? Nope. You can need on anything you are able to roll need on and be perfectly safe. A ninja is technically one who breaks pre-arranged loot rules outside of a blizzard-enforced environment (basically outside of any LFG).

    Wrong according to the community? Maybe. Sure, there are basic "rules" some people go by, such as MS>OS but those are more for self benefit and the golden rule. Those aren't even always accepted by all players.

    So whose rule of "right and wrong" do you go by? Do you invoke some religious backing, "Do unto others" or something of the sort?


    NOTE: LFR was supposed to help casuals see content. Remember, why do people who don't raid need gear of even LFR level? Ok maybe they are gearing to raid, etc etc, but in that case they should be playing well to practice their spec, and not /afk.
    What is the premise for saying anyone else is "right" or "wrong" "good" or "bad"?

    Example, if a tank is an asshole or just plain bad (whether due to skill, or lack, or because he's being lazy or just dicking around) some may say I'm justified on rolling on a tank item I need for OS. Blizzard rules allow me to do so. If I win it, am I a "bad" person? If I was running that dungeon just to build pieces for my tank spec, because I can't tank yet, and I was q'ing just for that piece, do I have more "right" then the tank who was just running for valor and happened to need it as well?

    Under what circumstances is a decision right or wrong? Am I sometimes a "nicer" person, giving a tank a piece I won fair and square because he asked me too? Maybe.

    Then again, consider the problems in the system. Very few people hit pass in LFD. Most hit greed or DE. If I need something for OS, I'll roll need. If the tank/heals/DPS do as well, and its their MS, I'll probably give it to them unless I'm there just to gather that piece. You see, this way I remove the chance of it being DE'd or hoping I get lucky over people who just want the crystal or the vendor price. Is that wrong? Even if I'm considering others by passing it off if two people "need" it but its their MS, I'm still keeping it over someone who'd vendor. Most players would say that is acceptable, and "right" however.

    It all comes down to your personal view. No one can say you are right or wrong, as long as you are within the rules. They may kick or insult, kicking is within their right to do so.

    Now more on topic, why should bad/lazy/afk players "win" loot over those who "earn" it by better performance? I'd do the same thing as the OP. Blizzards system doesn't reward good players, or those trying to improve, so I will try to do so. Some may say I am wrong, some may swear, but this is within the rules.

    Note: This is specific to random people in LFD/LFR not guild/friends where progression/friendship come first.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2012-01-17 at 10:41 PM.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    So you're rolling need on everything in LFD just in case? Can't say I've ever run into someone being that much of a douche in LFD. I bet your LFD groups love you as you're trying to rationalize with them about why you're rolling on things you don't need.
    I choose not to roll need most of the time, but I have the option should I choose to use it. If someone refuses to participate in the encounters I will roll against them to ensure they don't get rewarded for doing nothing, just like if I notice someone rolling for OS against someone's MS I'll try to help if possible. I actually had to do so yesterday when I got into a group with someone who refused to participate because his friend was kicked before I joined and we were unable to kick him because we were unable to initiate more kicks (such a stupid restriction).

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 10:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    False, the kick timer is much more restrictive in LFD than LFR. Much easier to kick and replace in LFR.
    Except when you constantly stay in combat, as I stated. Thanks for continuing to post in complete ignorance.

  3. #603
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It's not for you to decide whether anyone other than yourself should roll need on something they've earned in a Need/Greed system.
    No, its not for me to decide, but it is for me to judge people on their actions. If you roll need on an item you obviously don't need since you have the item or better and don't plan on using it. It is my right to classify anyone in that category as a douche. I don't care if you don't need the item and are going to hand it to someone else. I don't care if you are just trying to cut out the bads. You aren't part of the system to choose who is deserving of loot.

    Now if you are claiming it is your right to roll need on whatever you have the ability to do so on, then you are just trying to justify immoral practices. If you need an item for anything other than to use it you are abusing the system. You only need the item if you are going to wear it and equip it. Any other use of said item is fallen under the greed category. Blizzard left you the option to choose which way to go. Just because you choose to make an incorrect decision doesn't make it right because you can. If there were consequences to the action I bet you wouldnt' do it. Problem is you are allowed to be a douche to others in this game with no consequences for that action.

  4. #604
    Banned Jaylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appletini View Post
    Exactly. You kids doing this can go around thinking you're white knights protecting us "goods" from the "bads", but I'm just going to stand here in my ilvl 380 gear and call you a douchebag for it. Deal with it.

    Also, people saying that extra rolls don't hurt other people's chances are seriously uneducated. If five people roll for an item, each of those people has a better chance than if six people roll for it. What about that is hard to understand? If you have an item already yet you still roll on it, even if you're going to dole it out later to someone you feel "deserves it", you're still hurting individual chances of winning it on the initial roll.
    And you still fail to acknowledge the point we are making.. you continue to use the failed argument of "you already have the item so need is not an option for you." WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHAT I DO WITH THE ITEM I RIGHTFULLY WORKED FOR?? If I helped kill the boss (highest dps on most days) how can you say anything about depriving me of my FAIR AND SQUARE NEED ROLL? It is my choice what I do with that item once i have it in my bags.. including DISENCHANTING IT right in your face if i want. Luckly for you, this isnt the case, this isnt what we are insinuating what is happening here, we are taking the item we RIGHTFULLY won, and giving it to someone we feel pulled their weight. End of story. Period.

  5. #605
    naw, that's manipulating the system. I wouldn't say this is any better than someone needing on an item so they can give it to their friend (which I also think is bad).
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  6. #606
    Pandaren Monk Deleo's Avatar
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    So you get to be robin hood every once in 25 rolls ?!
    I've walked the realms of the dead. I have seen the infinite dark. Nothing you say. Or do. Could possibly frighten me.
    We are not monsters! We are not the mindless wretches of a ghoul army! NO! We are a force even more terrifying! We are the chill in a coward's spine! We are the instruments of an unyielding ire! WE ARE THE FORSAKEN!
    Those who do not stand with the Forsaken stand against them. And those who stand against the Forsaken will not stand long.

  7. #607
    Deleted
    The fact that you are asking 'if this is right?' when you deep down know it's wrong - means you are trolling.

    Get yersel tae feek.

    LFR - you will never find a more wretched hive of scum & villainy.

    Like this bawbag.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Appletini View Post
    Also, people saying that extra rolls don't hurt other people's chances are seriously uneducated. If five people roll for an item, each of those people has a better chance than if six people roll for it. What about that is hard to understand? If you have an item already yet you still roll on it, even if you're going to dole it out later to someone you feel "deserves it", you're still hurting individual chances of winning it on the initial roll.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post15105936

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Henline View Post
    Except when you constantly stay in combat, as I stated. Thanks for continuing to post in complete ignorance.
    I would love to see a Fraps of your LFR runs where you're constantly in combat the whole run. I've seen plenty of AFKers and semi-AFK slackers kicked from my LFR groups. It's not hard. As soon as you mention someone is AFK in raid chat, people jump on them right away.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    And you still fail to acknowledge the point we are making.. you continue to use the failed argument of "you already have the item so need is not an option for you." WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHAT I DO WITH THE ITEM I RIGHTFULLY WORKED FOR?? If I helped kill the boss (highest dps on most days) how can you say anything about depriving me of my FAIR AND SQUARE NEED ROLL? It is my choice what I do with that item once i have it in my bags.. including DISENCHANTING IT right in your face if i want. Luckly for you, this isnt the case, this isnt what we are insinuating what is happening here, we are taking the item we RIGHTFULLY won, and giving it to someone we feel pulled their weight. End of story. Period.
    Right, except didn't you "put wow down for good" to use your own words from a couple hours ago?

    I never said "need is not an option for you."

    What I said is, if you roll on an item you don't need, no matter what your reasons are, you are decreasing the chances of a legitimate player who needs it winning it.

    Your argument was actually that you rolling wouldn't affect others. It does. How is this so hard to understand?

    Also, why do you give a shit? For someone who espouses how terrible WoW is because of its casualization, you sure seem to care a lot about how its most casual raid system's loot rolling system works.

    Fallacious argument. Your argument there is either John will be there or Ben will be there and there is no difference between them toward the player's chances of winning.

    But that's not the situation here. The situation being addressed here is whether or not John will roll. If he does roll, he hurts the player's chances. If he does not, he does not hurt the player's chances.
    Last edited by Appletini; 2012-01-17 at 10:50 PM.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Endler89 View Post
    You aren't part of the system to choose who is deserving of loot.
    No, I'm not. The Blizzard system already did that, it decided me. I may now do whatever I please with said item.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endler89 View Post
    Now if you are claiming it is your right to roll need on whatever you have the ability to do so on, then you are just trying to justify immoral practices.
    It's funny how the naysayers say "there's a system in place already!" when it suits them, and then switch out immediately to play the 'morality is more important than the system' card, again when it suits them. Either the system is correct or it isn't, pick your poison.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    And you still fail to acknowledge the point we are making.. you continue to use the failed argument of "you already have the item so need is not an option for you." WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHAT I DO WITH THE ITEM I RIGHTFULLY WORKED FOR?? If I helped kill the boss (highest dps on most days) how can you say anything about depriving me of my FAIR AND SQUARE NEED ROLL? It is my choice what I do with that item once i have it in my bags.. including DISENCHANTING IT right in your face if i want. Luckly for you, this isnt the case, this isnt what we are insinuating what is happening here, we are taking the item we RIGHTFULLY won, and giving it to someone we feel pulled their weight. End of story. Period.
    So basically, "I can roll need so I will even if I don't need the item!"

    In what MMO is that not considered a dick move?

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 02:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Larwood View Post
    No, I'm not. The Blizzard system already did that, it decided me. I may now do whatever I please with said item.
    Blizzard's game lets me so I'm going to do it. That's the same justification exploiters use.

  13. #613
    Why do you have to be the police there?

    And also, LFR has been specifically implemented for bads/casuals. BUT, they should not be able to get the gear out of it?

    If you need gear for normal/heroic progression, run LFR with your guild and stop crying about it.

    If not, I don't know why you would try to police the whole run when you get in there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sahugani View Post
    PS: If you detect ANY irony or sarcasm in this post AT ALL, please report it to captain.obvious@youdontsay.com

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    So basically, "I can roll need so I will even if I don't need the item!"

    In what MMO is that not considered a dick move?

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 02:48 PM ----------



    Blizzard's game lets me so I'm going to do it. That's the same justification exploiters use.
    You really, really should have finished reading my post before illustraing perfectly one of my criticisms.

  15. #615
    The Lightbringer Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    naw, that's manipulating the system. I wouldn't say this is any better than someone needing on an item so they can give it to their friend (which I also think is bad).
    Prove it. Those are both unsubstantiated claims. Manipulating what? The system allows a 2 hour trade window. The system both allows and condones rolling need on anything you can. What is being manipulated here? Your claim is baseless, if you want to kritik the system at least have some warrents and solvency. (warrents-: the warrant interprets the data and shows how it supports your claim. The warrant, in other words, explains why the data proves the claim)

    Your claim has no proof, as such it is simply an opinion and has 0 real world impact, and no terminal impact of any sort, and as such is completely irrelevant. You see, a discussion with opposing sides requires some educated discourse, with support and claims for stances. Simply stating an opinion as fact, "That's manipulating the system" could easily be viewed as spam, and indeed I would argue any stance claimed as fact without proper reasoning behind it should be viewed as spam.

    To play devils advocated against my self:

    The system is designed to roll need on items which are personally needed, with the 2 hour trade window being for cases where someone disconnects, a mistake in gear allocation is made, or where a superior piece drops during said time frame and the original piece of gear is to be passed off to someone else who can make use of it. Example, tier shoulders off Hagra drop, and I keep. But backbreaker shoulders drop off spine, so I pass off tier token to a shamen for his off set.

    This is using the system as intended. Anything else, although within the letter of the law, is not within the spirit of the law, and should be looked down upon.

    See, I made claims both for and against my stance, whilst keeping my opinion to a minimal, as a simple restating of the grounds I gave for the original claim. Logical discourse can now ensue.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2012-01-17 at 10:54 PM.

  16. #616
    Who are you to be in the position to delegate such loot? What if the loot dispute is between a tank and a healer?What good does recount do then?

  17. #617
    Dreadlord
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    nah,

    I think everyone is entitled loot no matter how bad ur dps is...at least for Raid Finder that counts IMO

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    I would love to see a Fraps of your LFR runs where you're constantly in combat the whole run. I've seen plenty of AFKers and semi-AFK slackers kicked from my LFR groups. It's not hard. As soon as you mention someone is AFK in raid chat, people jump on them right away.
    Go do Fall of Deathwing. Now once you're in don't do a thing during boss fights, wait until the timer is nearly up on loot then start the next encounter before rolling. Congratulations you just did exactly what I talking about because there is no trash. It works in the first half in some groups because not everyone enjoys standing around for 5 minutes waiting on loot from the last boss before starting to clear trash.

    Like I said, complete ignorance.

  19. #619
    Banned Jaylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appletini View Post
    Right, except didn't you "put wow down for good" to use your own words from a couple hours ago?

    I never said "need is not an option for you."

    What I said is, if you roll on an item you don't need, no matter what your reasons are, you are decreasing the chances of a legitimate player who needs it winning it.

    Your argument was actually that you rolling wouldn't affect others. It does. How is this so hard to understand?

    Also, why do you give a shit? For someone who espouses how terrible WoW is because of its casualization, you sure seem to care a lot about how its most casual raid system's loot rolling system works.


    Fallacious argument. Your argument there is either John will be there or Ben will be there and there is no difference between them toward the player's chances of winning.

    But that's not the situation here. The situation being addressed here is whether or not John will roll. If he does roll, he hurts the player's chances. If he does not, he does not hurt the player's chances.
    So now I am not allowd to continue to take an interest in a game that I played (on and off) for 7 years even though I quit the game?

    Furthermore the principle does not just apply to this game, it applies to any MMO. Its just we are using the LFR as our particular example here.
    Last edited by Jaylock; 2012-01-17 at 10:56 PM.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Larwood View Post
    You really, really should have finished reading my post before illustraing perfectly one of my criticisms.
    You must be mistaking me for someone else. At no time did I ever argue about the system Blizzard has in place. I'm arguing about social etiquette in MMOs.

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