Virginia: Ultrasound required before abortion

[xenaros]

That's just going to make a difficult and painful decision to have an abortion even more painful.

[phenom568]

If the objection is to invoke a maternal response, like some people have said, then I think it's downright childish and pathetic.

If I got pregnant in my current situation, I'd have damned good reasons for abortion: I'm poor as all hell, I'm a student, I have a list of genetic problems in my family, and I have endometriosis which will more than likely result in a stillborn baby. So what, all of that is supposed to be forgotten because "awww baby"? If people are so close-minded that they'd rather me have a child with genetic problems, a child that would be given up due to financial reasons, or a child that comes out stillborn--- then they're pretty damned selfish for a situation that doesn't even remotely relate to them.

And for the record I never ever plan to birth a child for these reasons. I am very careful to make sure it never happens.

No its to show you that you are taking a life. If you have no problem with that then go ahead and have the abortion. Also being poor isn't an excuse for being stupid...and no I'm not calling you stupid.

[eriseis]

Y'know, sex is the act of reproduction, right? I know it's fun and all, but biologically it is simply the act of reproduction. If you can't live with the consequences of it, then yes, don't participate in it. At the very least, adoption if you don't want to care for it for those cases of "shit, contraception failed" with abortion reserved for rape and other, more serious cases. Which brings me to the next quote.



This argument is flawed for one simple reason; the inequality of gay rights in the country. If they're allowed to marry and adopt freely, and then there's still horribly overcrowded orphanages, then we have a real problem that makes abortion seem like a legitimate option. But even then, what you're saying is those who don't get adopted don't have a life worth living.

And don't get me wrong, I'd kill for a 100% certain, reversible contraception. But until then, people need to remember that sex is the act of reproduction, not just some fun activity to kill time with.

You took my post out of context. The person I quoted does not support abortion because he was adopted. My point was more to point out that one single case does not prove a point.

Second, sex begets procreation, but it's been proven that humans have sex for socio-recreational reasons. Both humans and dolphins exhibit this behavior. If humans were wired to have sex for procreation exclusively, we'd have mating seasons like most animals.

[Dannz]

I think the argument is that if u feel like shit about something your doing, maybe your not doing the right thing

yes... i bet you've never broken up with your gf/bf... it may be the right thing to do, but still makes you feel like shit.

[phenom568]

It costs money.
Impediment enough?

Guess they should have thought about that when they hopped in the sack.

[Deleted]

will the woman have to pay for these scans?
also whats the purpose of this? to try and reduce abortions?

[Destruktion]

It costs money.
Impediment enough?

I just edited that post to address that particular issue, but I'll address it here anyways. Here are several arguments:

Ultrasounds are inexpensive. No one is going to be financially barred from receiving an abortion by receiving an ultrasound prior.
The fact that an abortion costs money in the first place is enough, by your standards, to form that same argument.
The added cost of an ultrasound is worth the amounts of regret saved by women who might later regret their decision.

[Deleted]

Guess they should have thought about that when they hopped in the sack.

Rape/Failed contraception etc etc.

I just edited that post to address that particular issue, but I'll address it here anyways. Here are several arguments:

Ultrasounds are inexpensive. No one is going to be financially barred from receiving an abortion by receiving an ultrasound prior.
The fact that an abortion costs money in the first place is enough, by your standards, to form that same argument.
The added cost of an ultrasound is worth the amounts of regret saved by women who might later regret their decision.

It's still an added cost, one that I think they shouldn't have to pay.

[skrump]

Assuming the state government forces the taxpayers to pay for the Ultrasound I have no problem with it.
If they don't think it's a good use of their tax dollars then they should probably vote against it.

[Laize]

I really couldn't give 2 shits about women's rights in abortions until men have the right to sever themselves (financially and parentally) to a child before it's born.

[Mowgles]

No its to show you that you are taking a life. If you have no problem with that then go ahead and have the abortion. Also being poor isn't an excuse for being stupid...and no I'm not calling you stupid.

I don't think anyone goes to an abortion clinic not understanding that fact though. Women who choose to have abortions are probably terrified of the decision as is, and on top of that they should have guilt trips dropped on their shoulders?

People have this misconception that the country is full of whores who prance on down to the abortion clinic for their monthly abortion part-eh. That's not how it works. Abortions are expensive, and they're not covered by most insurance companies.

And no, being poor is certainly not a reason to be stupid, but it's a reason to make RESPONSIBLE DECISIONS. If giving up a baby early on makes it so that your family will be able to eat and pay bills, can you really condemn them for that?

[Yoshimiko]

I just edited that post to address that particular issue, but I'll address it here anyways. Here are several arguments:

Ultrasounds are inexpensive. No one is going to be financially barred from receiving an abortion by receiving an ultrasound prior.
The fact that an abortion costs money in the first place is enough, by your standards, to form that same argument.
The added cost of an ultrasound is worth the amounts of regret saved by women who might later regret their decision.

Tell that to a woman living on a $6,000 / year salary, barely making it on $1-2 meals, or possibly even going into soup kitchens to eat, probably on welfare as well. Ultrasounds isn't expensive to you. A lot of the people who *need* abortions due to financial reasons(having a kid is NOT cheap, and generally no one helps pick up the tab), simply can't afford that $60 ultrasound, and there is no good reason why they should. This is a ridiculous bill, that could really ruin peoples lives, and helps literally NO ONE.

Also comparing 1st trimester abortion to murder, is like comparing a man's masturbation to genocide.

[phenom568]

He used sensationalism, propaganda, and violence to convince people. Germany was in horrendous economic shape when he took power. They would've believed anyone that came along and promised a better future. And even better, he provided a scapegoat for their ills(the Jew). You're confusing his charismatic abilities with logic. And because of our instinctive nature to hate the things we do not understand, it only makes sense how he could convince a nation. Not through logic, but propaganda.

I think you're trying to tie propaganda to logic. That's a failed assumption.

Jews are rich and you are poor: Logic and a fact
You are better than the Jews: Logic, all humans feel they are better than others

We're a species that doesn't have to worry about being in danger when having sex, it only makes sense that our evolutionary instincts are to have sex for pleasure. And please don't act like abortion is some new issue. It's been around for thousands of years, neatly tucked under the rug of religion. This personal responsibility argument irritates me, because it ignores the history and evolution of society as a whole.

So hitler shouldn't be held accountable to his actions? His father was a terrible person and probably made hitler into hat he became. So its not hitlers fault right? Personal Responsibility is what holds this world together if we ignore that then the world falls into anarchy. As for Evolutionary instincts we as higher evolved species have the responsibility to control those instincts and for the most part we can. Its a basic instinct to beat the crap out of someone who embarrasses or annoys you. Yet we have laws that prevent basic instincts like that from ruling us. We aren't civilized because we can build houses we are because we have the ability to be better than our instincts.

This issue has nothing to do with religion to me. It comes down to a simple fact of life. If I told you, "I wish your mother had aborted you" I'm guessing you wouldn't take that as a compliment. Human life in all forms is sacred.

[Mowgles]

Also comparing 1st trimester abortion to murder, is like comparing a man's masturbation to genocide.

I love this.

[Vladinator]

Every mother feels that her child is important, and won't always see reason of the practical issues. This just makes it harder to do the right thing, even if it goes against emotions. These type of emotions are deeply encoded in ourselves, it does not mean it's right or wrong, just that if you need to not have a baby, this law does not make it easier. -_-

[Jaxi]

Oh please, pull that "life" out of the womb at the time of the planned abortion. Give it to an adopting family. See how well it "grows". This is where the conversation always falls apart, because people think some parasitic organism(that will possibly turn into a person depending on a multitude of possible events) is somehow life that's just trapped in the womb, dying to get out.

I'm actually a little surprised that people use this excuse. "You are nothing more than a parasitic organism until you pop out of that magical line. Then, by the power of Zeus, you are a human being!" If you are trying to imply that a fetus cannot survive without the proper care growth, then you are right. At the same time though, neither can a baby or a toddler. A fetus can be grown in a tube, so we obviously have the care to grow it, and a baby can be taken care of by responsible adults, so we obviously have the level of care for them as well. Those levels may vary, but neither can survive without the caregiver. So babies are parasites too?
It just sounds like a lame excuse for pro-choicers to distance themselves from the emotional side of the decision. Now, I am a pro-choice person myself, but I have never liked the lack of responsibility rampant on this side of the fence. Own up to your decisions, I won't tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body, but she better damn well know what exactly she IS doing.

[Deleted]

Also comparing 1st trimester abortion to murder, is like comparing a man's masturbation to genocide.

Actually, even if you only had procreational sex, you'd still be committing genocide as only a single one of them make it. The logical solution is to simply never have sex in any form.
(Unless you're a lesbian)

[Destruktion]

It's still an added cost, one that I think they shouldn't have to pay.

What about the women who later regret having an abortion? $60 (from what I'm hearing) is a small price to pay to avoid a possible lifetime worth of regret.

Tell that to a woman living on a $6,000 / year salary, barely making it on $1-2 meals, or possibly even going into soup kitchens to eat, probably on welfare as well. Ultrasounds aren't expensive to you. A lot of the people who *need* abortions due to financial reasons(having a kid is NOT cheap, and generally no one helps pick up the tab), simply can't afford that $60 ultrasound, and there is no good reason why they should. This is a ridiculous bill, that could really ruin peoples lives, and helps literally NO ONE.

Also comparing 1st trimester abortion to murder, is like comparing a man's masturbation to genocide.

That is complete nonsense. I won't buy that sob story because absolute worst-case scenarios like this don't happen outside the realm of emotional appeals. Seriously, $6k/year? $1-2 meals?

I was going to say $91 for an ultrasound, but if they really are more like $60 then wow you sure proved my point. A $60 ultrasound ruins NO ONE and has the potential to help ANYBODY who is uneasy about having an abortion.

Also,
-nowhere did I refer to abortion of any sort as murder
-your analogy must be facetious or something because it is hilariously inaccurate

[phenom568]

I don't think anyone goes to an abortion clinic not understanding that fact though. Women who choose to have abortions are probably terrified of the decision as is, and on top of that they should have guilt trips dropped on their shoulders?

People have this misconception that the country is full of whores who prance on down to the abortion clinic for their monthly abortion part-eh. That's not how it works. Abortions are expensive, and they're not covered by most insurance companies.

And no, being poor is certainly not a reason to be stupid, but it's a reason to make RESPONSIBLE DECISIONS. If giving up a baby early on makes it so that your family will be able to eat and pay bills, can you really condemn them for that?

Isn't it a responsible decision not to have sex? I would say abortion is a selfish decision made after making an irresponsible decision. I mean how many people get pregnant after the first time? Some but but its not the majority, so its a repeated decision that eventually bites you in the ass.

They should be terrified by the decision, its not an easy one. But so many people ignore the consequences of their actions and use abortion as an out. How many people stop having sex after an abortion? By the numbers I would guess few. Hey I can have sex and if I get pregnant I can get an abortion is something I have heard from many many people. By showing a picture you are only showing them both sides of the decision, maybe if the decision is painful enough they will avoid having to make the same decision again.

[theredviola]

This has already been passed to law in Oklahoma. Obvious Human Rights violation aside, the WOMAN NOT THE GOVERNMENT pays for the ultra. But, also in OK you have to get one of those 3D images of the baby as well before aborting it. And again, THE WOMAN NOT THE GOVERNMENT pays for it. The OK govt is just making it more expensive, as well as more difficult, to get an abortion to deter people from doing it.

You know that when this was passed, there was some kind of Hospital Exec out in the lobby just rubbing his wallet thinking of all the money he's going to make off of women who already go through a huge emotional stressor. Grats OK, you only serve to prove that all's you care about is money -- not morality.

Edit: This goes for women who are raped too. Not just the ones who forgot to use protection. So yeah, rape victims have to pay out of their own pocket so they don't have their rapist's baby.