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  1. #1

    MoP pvp gear changes don't make sense

    I just read the blue posts about stat changes to pvp gear. This is the part that just doesn't make sense to me. maybe I'm missing something. I'm not sure.

    "We are renaming this stat to “Defense (PvP)” or possibly “PvP Defense.” All players will have 30% base Defense, the same way all characters have some base Stamina.
    PvP gear will have Defense on it, as well as a new stat, “Power (PvP).” Power increases the damage you do to other players as well as the healing you do to other players in PvP situations.
    If you have a lot of Power, you’ll do more damage to other players, but they likely have Defense as well. If you fight players in lots of PvE gear, they’ll take more damage. Likewise, a player in PvE gear won’t have enough Power to effectively penetrate your Defense."

    Ok....so...Looking at this logically, how in the world does this change ANYTHING??? Their whole idea behind this is to lower the barrier of entry for pve players to start doing pvp. ok, I get that. So everyone now has a base of 30% damage reduction. Ok that's cool. I could see if pvp gear raised that higher to say, in BiS pvp gear, you would be at 50% rather than 30%. That is successfully accomplishing blizzards goal, and imo, it's a good idea.

    But then there is power.... Power effectively REDUCES the effectiveness of resil. So if you are a fully pve geared player. You have your base 30%. Then there is a pvp player, who not only has 50% compared to the other players 30%, but they have enough POWER on their gear to equal 30% INCREASED damage to player targets, which effectively makes their 30% base reduction absolutely useless.

    I guess my question is this: What the fuck is the point????? Doesn't that just leave us in the EXACT same position that we are in currently, only it makes it more complicated for no apparent reason whatsoever?

    The only thing I can get at is MAYBE in full pvp gear, your power would only increase your player damage by around 10-15% I mean, at least then you aren't getting wrecked AS hard in pvp, but other than that, i don't see where the devs could be this stupid.

    Thoughts??
    Last edited by Asher13; 2012-03-02 at 11:30 AM.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Deadvolcanoes's Avatar
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    The idea behind power isn't to ease pvers into pvp.

    Power and defense are being implemented to discourage the use of pve gear in competitive pvp.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    The idea behind power isn't to ease pvers into pvp.

    Power and defense are being implemented to discourage the use of pve gear in competitive pvp.
    are you sure about that?
    The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP.

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord Stanton Biston's Avatar
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    There's already a much longer thread about this.

    Also, we have no idea how much power there will be. Or defense for that matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    Considering you just linked a graph with no data plotted on it as factual evidence, I think Stanton can infer whatever the hell he wants.
    Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence - Sometimes I abbreviate this ECREE

  5. #5
    Deleted
    I really don't get why Greg Street says he wants to ease the transition between PvE and PvP so players can do both, then he says how they're trying to make PvE and PvP gear useless in the opposite area.

  6. #6
    As far as I see there is nowhere stated that 30% base defense = 30% damage reduction. Or I'm terribly wrong. Anyway. The more defense the less damage. Simple so far. To inflict more damage one need power. More power = more damage. Logical.

    PvE gear - low power/defense stat feed
    PvP gear - high power/defense stat feed

    I see it working that way. You have fully PvP geared Warrior and Mage (don't laugh or comment how unlikely that situation may be, it's for example purposes), both equal, win/lose ratio is 50/50.

    Now, today our Mage got a Legendary (which is PvE gear). He lost some benefits that came from his former PvP weapon but instead he was given more DPS. In that scenario he is slightly easier to kill but his DPS overcompensates that loss and now Warrior/Mage ratio is 30/70.

    MoP arrives and puts power/defense stats on PvP gear. Warrior still fully PvP, Mage PvP with PvE Legendary. While Mage is capable of superior DPS that enabled him to kill WArrior more often our Warrior have full benefit from Defense that soak Legendary's attack as they lack of "power".

    I hope that sounds clear. I think that Blizzard wants to "force" people who PvP to stick to PvP gear and stop using PvE stuff as it provides and brings inbalance issues. When you have two equal skilled and geared players the match/duel is fair. but when one of them exchanges just one piece of gear for PvE and gain significant advantage... that's not balance. With MoP changes people will be less likely to do that as they will lose benefits coming from full PvP def/power. And Blizzard can go even further. Add flat 5% bonus to power/def stat when all slots are PvP (much like armor specialisation/mastery that boost your agi for Hunter's when all armor is mail). Then noone would use Legendary for extra dps as they will lose significant amount of stats.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    The idea behind power isn't to ease pvers into pvp.

    Power and defense are being implemented to discourage the use of pve gear in competitive pvp.
    This, sadly the ridiculous gap in leveling (333 or lower) and the gear people use in bgs now (390) is the reason that getting into PvP is so annoying now. If blizzard goes through with the stat crush or w/e and we're back at vanilla tbc levels the difference in this gear won't be so high. For example in TBC the difference in hp/dmg in regular leveling gear and merciless wasn't nearly as high as currently.

    That said people over react with the big entry level sometimes, I did TB + victory quest yesterday and got 800 honor out of it, doing Bgs with some friends grants like 200 aswell, more if its the first of the day. And once you get 2k resi or so (which is fast) your survival stops being that bad already.

    In other words, unless they give players with low iLvL gear more power/defense as a basic stat or do the stat crush nothing will ever change. Personally I'm happy with this, no more god mode PvE items, yay. Now the QQ from both sides can stop since PvE gear won't really work in PvP and visa versa. Or atleast I hope so...

  8. #8
    I understand the fact that they are trying to balance say, a pvp weapon vs a pve weapon. You are correct Stanton that we do not know the exact values or how much pieces are going to have and the like, so I'm trying to not jump to conclusions until we have some actual numbers to play with. That being said, my point is (thank you runaway for quoting it) they specifically state that they are trying to ease the huge gap in gear to pvp. I understand 30% defense doesn't necessarily mean 30% damage reduction, but lets assume that it does (or whatever number you would like it to equal. It's irrelevant.)

    How does it lower the barrier of entry to pvp? i have 30% reduction without pvp gear. You have power equal to 30% defense penetration in full pvp gear. (It's effectively armor pen for resilience) it will be the same situation we have today where a player with no pvp gear gets rocked by a person with pvp gear.

    Again, the only way I could see it working is if even in end tier, final pvp season of MoP, you will never be able to acquire enough power to negate the native 30% defense on a pve geared player, which as Stanton pointed out, we will not know until we get some actual numbers.

    It is blizzard we are talking about here. That is what worries me.

    Also, apologizes for starting a new thread on the topic. I did a quick search on the first page of the pvp forum and didn't see it.
    Last edited by Asher13; 2012-03-02 at 12:11 PM.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    "•PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier, however the Power and Defense stats will make sure that PvP gear is more powerful in PvP (both offensively and defensively) than PvE gear."

    Maybe because without PVP Power the damage output difference between PVP en PVE would be too great.
    But if pve players get 30% defense as baseline and pvp geared players have 30% more Power, I really dont see how that eases the transition

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    This, sadly the ridiculous gap in leveling (333 or lower) and the gear people use in bgs now (390) is the reason that getting into PvP is so annoying now. If blizzard goes through with the stat crush or w/e and we're back at vanilla tbc levels the difference in this gear won't be so high. For example in TBC the difference in hp/dmg in regular leveling gear and merciless wasn't nearly as high as currently.

    That said people over react with the big entry level sometimes, I did TB + victory quest yesterday and got 800 honor out of it, doing Bgs with some friends grants like 200 aswell, more if its the first of the day. And once you get 2k resi or so (which is fast) your survival stops being that bad already.

    In other words, unless they give players with low iLvL gear more power/defense as a basic stat or do the stat crush nothing will ever change. Personally I'm happy with this, no more god mode PvE items, yay. Now the QQ from both sides can stop since PvE gear won't really work in PvP and visa versa. Or atleast I hope so...
    Currently getting 2.3k resilience is as simple as buying the crafted pvp gear, JC neck and rings. Getting 3k takes nothing more than acquiring 2 more pvp set pieces, which include +400 resilience. Crafted ilvl is 377. Its not really hard to enter PVP.

    These changes appear to make it easy for top PVPs to do PVE without changing gear, as they are only 1 tier behind. On the other hand, a PVE player with top tier PVE gear is entering PVP with 0 power and 0 defense on their gear.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    I don't get that resilience note, by giving 30% to everyone.
    If everyone has it, it won't matter anyway.
    The ability to burst down a pve player in seconds in a pvp environment will remain, despite that change.

    It's a given fact that every fresh Pve player starts with zero resilience, unless it has some pieces from the last season.
    A player in this condition is a dead weight to the team. He will die surely, or the course of a BG, even if he is a ranged class, or a healer.
    In Mists, we came to know that a pve player in full pve gear will start pvping with a baseline 30% resilience (or Pvp defense, if you prefer).
    That's good, I thought. They want to lessen that feeling we have of being useless in a BG, and being able to survive a few more seconds, to contribute to the team.
    It would also be less frustrating starting to pvp.

    A seasoned pvp player with a full pvp gear will have the same 30% resilience baseline, like the pve player.
    But he also will also have the resilience granted by his gear, and PvP Power (increased damage against players and healing to players);

    This means that the pvp player will still have an huge advantage over a fresh, pvp player, even with 30% resilience.
    (+ damage, +healing and reduced damage taken additional bonus).
    That pve still will be annihilated by the Pvp player in a matter of seconds.

    So this is equal to the current system, where PvE players will continue to be dead-weights, but with a small difference: we now have another stat to care. Pvp Power.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Well people are already at an unbelievable ~45% damage reduction from resilience, and it's still very much possible to get globaled or killed in a stun or two.

    So if Power would counteract Resilience, and gained at the same rate, we'd be dying faster than we do now against PvP geared people. I hope we'll end up with more than 30% DR when both parties wear full pvp gear. Otherwise all this would achieve then is that PvE gear will be much worse in PvP (which i very much like). Not that it'll be easier to go from PvE to PvP or vice versa, or am i missing something?

    I think its great news if they can get it working, and the fact that resilience and power wont cost itembudget made me very happy. Always thought they should do this. Then they keep PvP gear at a lower ilvl so it wont be better to wear in PvE. My only issue is that not much would change when you are a fresh 90 vs a full pvp geared player.

  13. #13
    EXACTLY. Other than helping to balance pve gear that is incredibly powerful (vial of shadows anyone?) This change basically just tries to complicate the system we have now, only...it's the SAME THING. I think I would be ok with it if they had came out and stated "this is to help with balancing pvp and pve" rather than stating that it helps bridge the gap between the two so to speak. It doesn't do that in any way. the only thing it will REALLY change is how long it takes to kill one another in a bg at launch, before anyone has any pvp gear, which, again, I don't really see much of a point in.

    I DO see this helping in low level pvp though, which is something I have felt needed a look at for a long time. It's not pvp. It's "who has the most hunters."

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-02 at 06:30 AM ----------

    Due to the fact that these new pvp stat weights do not affect item budget as they do currently, and although it will still not be as effective as pve gear due to lower values, it actually will be more viable to use pvp gear in pve than it is now. THAT change I do understand. Right now you take a piece that has 300 crit and 300 resil. once this change happens you will have a piece that has 200 crit, 200 haste, and then have some amt of the new pvp stats as well, whereas a similar piece of pve gear would just have 300 crit, and 300 haste.

    A bit off topic, but if they follow through with this number squish, HOPEFULLY (and I pray this happens) it will take a lot more skill to kill someone w/o a healer behind them, because you CANT just global them. Judging by the amt of self heals most, if not all classes are getting, I see it going down that route. Being able to rely on yourself rather than a healer AS MUCH, because, lets face it, healers right now are basically gods. They can take more damage than a resil geared (with the exception of maybe blood dk's, but that's a completely different issue) tanks. it's way too out of hand.
    Last edited by Asher13; 2012-03-02 at 12:33 PM.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    ---------- Post added 2012-03-02 at 06:30 AM ----------

    [/COLOR]Due to the fact that these new pvp stat weights do not affect item budget as they do currently, and although it will still not be as effective as pve gear due to lower values, it actually will be more viable to use pvp gear in pve than it is now. THAT change I do understand. Right now you take a piece that has 300 crit and 300 resil. once this change happens you will have a piece that has 200 crit, 200 haste, and then have some amt of the new pvp stats as well, whereas a similar piece of pve gear would just have 300 crit, and 300 haste.
    This is true. I think there will always be a stigma about wearing pvp gear in pve though. Depends on the numbers too. If the gear is 1 tier behind the pve stuff, that's probably enough reason to get a full pve set if you want to raid. I guess it'll be easier to do heroics in pvp gear though.

    On the other hand, most fully pvp geared players dont spend all day in BGs. Even at this point in time there are plenty of players without full pvp gear, me on my alt included. If we think about it less as a 1v1 between a fresh 90 vs a pvp geared 90, but more as a group of 15 people where a lot of them dont have a lot of PvP Power yet, damage would indeed be much lower at low levels and when you just dinged 90. Sure, your own Power will suck, but the base resilience you get can keep you alive to at least CC healers, silence them, etc. Even as my 2 pvp item geared spriest alt i have won games by applying CC at the right times. If i'd live 30% longer against most players, i would be even better at that even if my damage still sucks. After all, i can stand when my Mind Blast tickles somebody because it didnt crit, but i rage everytime a rogue jumps out and a warrior charges me and i die instantly. PvP geared players will still have an advantage as this is still a gear based game, but overall the PvE player will live much longer than today.


    A bit off topic, but if they follow through with this number squish, HOPEFULLY (and I pray this happens) it will take a lot more skill to kill someone w/o a healer behind them, because you CANT just global them. Judging by the amt of self heals most, if not all classes are getting, I see it going down that route. Being able to rely on yourself rather than a healer AS MUCH, because, lets face it, healers right now are basically gods. They can take more damage than a resil geared (with the exception of maybe blood dk's, but that's a completely different issue) tanks. it's way too out of hand.
    [/quote]
    I play a healer as my main so i might be a bit biased, but in a high end Arena the damage and timing is so much better and higher than BGs. I can easily tank 5 people in a BG, but a good rated TSG (2 people) will drop me within second, without me being able to act much.
    Anyway, this would make healer stronger, wouldnt it? Resilience to make you need to heal less, and Power that makes you heal for more. The DPS increase from power would be counteracted by resil, but what would counteract the extra healing from power?
    Last edited by mmoc80afdcec58; 2012-03-02 at 12:58 PM.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    It does make sense.

  16. #16
    That is a great point. Defense (resil) lowers damage taken., but power increases damage done, so that would even itself out, but what about the increased in healing due to power? Wouldn't that also, make reduced healing effects non existant? Also, would that mean that the heals you do in pvp would actually be LARGER than what you would do in pve?

    As in regards to your first point, I just feel like you should be able to out damage a persons heals EVENTUALLY. I can hit a fully resilience target for a couple of lucky 18k to 20k crits, but a healer can push one button and BAM! It's like it never happened. I just don't fee it should takehaving to stun lock, and interrupt three times with impeccable timing, with two people on one guy to finally bring him down. I mean, you can take a vicious geared healer, throw him in a bg, and if the dps arent pro as hell, can outheal 2, sometimes 3 more more guys in full ruthless.

    I'm telling you man, put me in a random bg (the argument that low geared people only do randoms is bullshit, even more so now that u get conquest for every win) with a pocket healer, and I can absolutely DESTROY people, because I know my healer isn't going down anytime soon. Unless of course you are up against a premade or something.

    TL;DR I feel it takes too much skill to kill a healer. Let's face it, no one likes to wail on a healer for 30 minutes to no avail (or arena draw matches. God those suck)

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-02 at 06:53 AM ----------

    Oh is that right? Then please, enlighten me. HOW?!?!?!

  17. #17
    It seems to me since they are making these pvp stats "free" that this will make it easier for pvp players to get into pve, but not vice versa.

  18. #18
    lower ilvl to make them less functional in pve
    stats only available to pvp to make them more desirable in pvp

    easy enough to understand.

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    That is a great point. Defense (resil) lowers damage taken., but power increases damage done, so that would even itself out, but what about the increased in healing due to power? Wouldn't that also, make reduced healing effects non existant? Also, would that mean that the heals you do in pvp would actually be LARGER than what you would do in pve?

    As in regards to your first point, I just feel like you should be able to out damage a persons heals EVENTUALLY. I can hit a fully resilience target for a couple of lucky 18k to 20k crits, but a healer can push one button and BAM! It's like it never happened. I just don't fee it should takehaving to stun lock, and interrupt three times with impeccable timing, with two people on one guy to finally bring him down. I mean, you can take a vicious geared healer, throw him in a bg, and if the dps arent pro as hell, can outheal 2, sometimes 3 more more guys in full ruthless.

    I'm telling you man, put me in a random bg (the argument that low geared people only do randoms is bullshit, even more so now that u get conquest for every win) with a pocket healer, and I can absolutely DESTROY people, because I know my healer isn't going down anytime soon. Unless of course you are up against a premade or something.

    TL;DR I feel it takes too much skill to kill a healer. Let's face it, no one likes to wail on a healer for 30 minutes to no avail (or arena draw matches. God those suck)[COLOR="red"]
    If you go with a pocket healer, you are already doing more to prepare for the fight than most of the people that are whacking at you. But other than that, the damage is just so high that healing needs to be as well. Even at 45% DR, hp bars can swing from left and back to the right too easily. If heals werent so fricking strong, we'd have WotlK all over again. (and some think we're not that far removed from that with certain pve items) Maybe we just have a different opinion, as i loved the slower more tactical fights of TBC. If you screw up, you have the danger to get killed, but even if you survive the burst your healer will lose a lot of mana to get you back up. But such fights are impossible with the way the numbers are now. The only option they have is to make heals insane so PvP is actually playable. There are already 3dps 3v3 teams out there that are having great success.

    I do think it should take perfect timing to kill somebody, be it a healer or not. I also think that if you survive, your healer needs to at least feel it when he or you screwed up. Not press a single button and wait 2 seconds to regain the mana back.

  20. #20
    Pvp in wow, getting worse each expansion.

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