Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[Oldmilwaukee]

i have to say, i cant agree more with that statement. its a fact. and that will end wow for me , atleast.

You wanted that 1000 post so bad, rite ?

[ClearlyConfused]

Once again, I cannot believe this thread is still around.

[Kaidog]

As long as Blizzard doesn't do anything that makes people feel as if they're required to run a format they don't care for just to keep up, I'm fine for letting the players decide this with their preference.

If that means 25-man dies, I would be sad because that's my preference personally. But if I'm so small a minority on this that it happens anyway, then so be it.

But I'm dead against the sort of thing that went on with Wrath. Yes, yes, running both 10- and 25-man raids in Wrath was 'optional' in the sense that you didn't have to do it. But progression guilds and those that wanted to be progression guilds had a habit of requiring attendance for both or you lost your spot for both so in that sense it wasn't optional at all except for the question of did you want to raid with your guild or not.

One last point which hardly anyone mentions: LFR looks to be 25-man format for the foreseeable future. I would suppose as long as LFR is around, 25-man raids will be around. Those of you who wish to preserve the format but keep demanding that LFR gets removed because it's stupid or whatever, keep it up. That coffin you're trying to drive nails into will have 25-man raids in it eventually.

If and when Blizz releases 10-man LFR, then you can start to seriously worry about the future of 25-man raids.

and this statement, cant agree more. The above says it all tbvh

[Deleted]

I am afraid that we have a problem with determining what "will let 25 man die" means.

Its pretty obvious...

What this means is that right now (in Cataclysm) with the current format 25man raiding has fallen dramatically and continues to fall. And if the current format is kept in place then 25man raiding will eventually disappear, hence the term "let it die". Therefore if Blizzard fail to act and change the current system theyre effectively "allowing 25mans to die" with inaction to fix a clear and present problem within the game.

Anyone who denies the fall in 25man raiding during Cataclysm is clueless and should be avoided in terms of this discussion... its an immutable fact that there is a collosal difference in the amount of 25man raids in Wrath to Cataclysm. Hence the point of this thread... "will Blizzard let 25man raiding die...?"

Im reading only a handful of fanatics who are trying to defend the current raiding model... and tbh none of them appear to have done any form of progress raiding in either 10 or 25man raiding guilds.

The truth is that the Cataclysm raiding model doesnt work... its achieved one thing and one thing only... animosity within the raiding community. Never has the raiding community been so utterly divided and consequently so much hate been thrown around at each other.

The ONLY solution is one raiding size.

All the time 2 raid sizes exists then this pointless and divisive hatred among the players will exist.

[Tanthalas]

It's interesting how...
"If 1 DPS dies, you lost 20% of your DPS, versus 5% of your DPS!"
...never gets compared to...
"If 1 DPS gets a legendary, 20% of your DPS now has orange, versus 5% of your DPS!"

You do realise that by the time of first legendary in 10-man, 25-man raid has three?

[Radalek]

You do realise that by the time of first legendary in 10-man, 25-man raid has three?

And thank god for that, only way to keep it fair. They fucked up with only one Ragnaros heroic mount drop on both 10 and 25 and fixed it partly with 25 man dropping 2 Madness heroic mounts now.

[Tanthalas]

And thank god for that, only way to keep it fair. They fucked up with only one Ragnaros heroic mount drop on both 10 and 25 and fixed it partly with 25 man dropping 2 Madness heroic mounts now.

Yes they did and I'm fine with that. Just wanted to note, that the "legendary" percentage of the raid is similar in 10 and 25 man.

[Talen]

Therefore if Blizzard fail to act and change the current system theyre effectively "allowing 25mans to die" with inaction to fix a clear and present problem within the game.

I think you are overlooking the main problem with your arguments.

Its NOT a problem with the game or raid model. Its a problem with the community and really, its one Blizzard has no control over.

Are 25s fun? Yes.
Do they deserve to remain part of the game? Yes
Are they valuable enough to force people to play them? No.

25s falling off in popularity would be a problem for the game and a problem Blizzard would need to address if it had some wider impact of some sort. To date, that doesn't appear to be the case.

The truth is that the Cataclysm raiding model doesnt work...

The truth is that it does work and work very well. What you and others tend to mean when saying otherwise is that it doesn't artificially inflate the number of people doing 25s and having read through similar arguments before...thats what they all come down to.

The current raid model fails because 25s aren't supported by it.

Given that was foreseen and accepted by Blizzard before Cat launched, I suspect they can live with that "failure" given that it succeeded everywhere else.

Putting it bluntly....25s have no special right or claim to preferential treatment or rewards simply because a subset of the community prefers them. If they die out....which is unlikely...then it will because the community, not Blizzard...which has chosen to let them die. Time and again we are told many of those who do 10s would prefer 25s.

Maybe they would. But there is an important qualifier left out - they prefer 25s so long as someone else does the work to set them up and organise them. In other words, they prefer the ease and convenience of setting up and running 10s to actually playing a 25 man format.

EJL

[Deleted]

it ends up being a question do you prefer 25s or do you prefer to raid, because on this server we have no 25s so if you want to raid you will have to join a 10.
Oh just start a 25 yea and look at the case stories from this very long thread, its takes extremely long it is ungrateful and in the end there is only the special format, nothing at all.
so why do 10s need preferential treatment they are easier to organise easier to maintain and a subset of the community forced through that they schould be of equal value as 25s.

Again a unisize raidsize would be the best imo, we would hopefully get more encounters balanced for this one size in the physical confines determined for that size.

If blizz wanted wow players to stay they would build end game pve to be about social interaction and ensure stability to that. Having to move from raid to raid because it folds hardly having people to talk to or chat with makes this game of a single player game not an mmo. And you can go through single player games very fast and throw em away again.
Playing for funny strange purple thingies just gets boring playing together with other people makes it fun. And you simply get to meet more people in bigger raids than in small raids.

p.s. no one forced anyone to go raid in 25s, on the other hand people who liked raiding into 25s are have to join 10s if they want to raid atm.

[Talen]

it ends up being a question do you prefer 25s or do you prefer to raid, because on this server we have no 25s so if you want to raid you will have to join a 10.
Oh just start a 25 yea and look at the case stories from this very long thread, its takes extremely long it is ungrateful and in the end there is only the special format, nothing at all.

So...you prefer 10s to doing 25s. 25s in and of themselves may be preferred, but only if you don't have to do the work to from them up. On balance therefore, you prefer 10s.

so why do 10s need preferential treatment they are easier to organise easier to maintain and a subset of the community forced through that they schould be of equal value as 25s.

They don't need preferential treatment. They shouldn't get preferential tretament. They don't get preferential treatment. They are treated as being equal to 25s. There is a barrier to entry that is an inherent aspect of 25s but it is also one the players need to address.

p.s. no one forced anyone to go raid in 25s, on the other hand people who liked raiding into 25s are have to join 10s if they want to raid atm.

Blizzard did. Blizzard did so the moment it made 25s more prestgious and offer better gear and other rewards. Blizzard did so the moment it locked content to the 25 man format. Blizzard did so the moment it balanced gear acquisition rates around players running both formats. Blizzard saw the issues and problems that caused and devised a new raid format that did away with those issues. In the process, it removed everything that artificially increased the popularity of 25s and a sa result, the nnumbers of 25 man raids plummetted...as was foreseen.

If there is an issue with the current raid model, its that 25s are harder to organise and maintain. Thats a call for Blizzard to either reward raid leaders....NOT the entire raid....or develop better raid management tools.

EJL

[Deleted]

I really hope they find ways to make 25mans work again for more guilds... I enjoyed wrath of the lich king immensely because you could do 10 man and 25 man.

I could do 25 mans and get frustrated with the group and the disorganization and then go to 10 man with people I fully trust and enjoy that, and when the 10 man didn't feel "epic" enough I could go back to 25 man. I did both every week.

[Deleted]

So...you prefer 10s to doing 25s. 25s in and of themselves may be preferred, but only if you don't have to do the work to from them up. On balance therefore, you prefer 10s.


They don't need preferential treatment. They shouldn't get preferential tretament. They don't get preferential treatment. They are treated as being equal to 25s. There is a barrier to entry that is an inherent aspect of 25s but it is also one the players need to address.

Blizzard did. Blizzard did so the moment it made 25s more prestgious and offer better gear and other rewards. Blizzard did so the moment it locked content to the 25 man format. Blizzard did so the moment it balanced gear acquisition rates around players running both formats. Blizzard saw the issues and problems that caused and devised a new raid format that did away with those issues. In the process, it removed everything that artificially increased the popularity of 25s and a sa result, the nnumbers of 25 man raids plummetted...as was foreseen.

If there is an issue with the current raid model, its that 25s are harder to organise and maintain. Thats a call for Blizzard to either reward raid leaders....NOT the entire raid....or develop better raid management tools.

EJL

No i dont prefer 10s to 25s. Strange how you can make up what i think or prefer in your mind, weird truly.
And im sorry that blizzard employes forced themselves into your house threatened you with a gun and forced you to play 25s, truly i am sorry must have been horrible that kind of an experience.

But truth is 10 man raiders could raid 10 mans in wrath and it wasn't a problem, they weren't forced at gunpoint to raid 25s...
People who prefer 25s have to raid 10s if they want to raid at all because of the dimnished amount of 25 man guilds on the servers, now a days in cata.

[Grym]

I was raiding 25 in Wrath because I was forced to by purples.

Now the purple drops same I chose to run 10man.

If there are reward, people are forced to do the one with better reward, if reward is same, people choose to do the one they prefer.

Whats the problem?

[Deleted]

I also like to add another issue with 10 vs 25. I raid 10 man currently with my best friend. In wrath we rarerly could do 25 man together because he wasn't available on ordinary raid times as a rule. Now we can raid crazy times like midnight to 4 a clock friday saturday because we can get people who can do this, which would be impossible in 25 man. It so much easier taking breaks if someone needs to see to their kid etc, finding replacements, distributing loot and in general just hanging out with old friends.

[Talen]

No i dont prefer 10s to 25s

No. You prefer 10s. Albeit when considering the entire package. You like raiding with 25s, but you don't like the extra work you would need to do to form your own 25. You'd prefer some one else to step up and fill that role.

And im sorry that blizzard employes forced themselves into your house threatened you with a gun and forced you to play 25s, truly i am sorry must have been horrible that kind of an experience.

Theres physical coercion and psychological coercion.

But truth is 10 man raiders could raid 10 mans in wrath and it wasn't a problem, they weren't forced at gunpoint to raid 25s...

This is true. They were forced to by an expectation to maintain their standing within their guilds, to maintain a certain level of progression, to help ensure they and their friends and guildies weren't left behind, to avoid the threat of a /gkick if they weren't seen as serious enough and so on.

You may denigrate and dismiss the idea, but its a simple fact such pressures can and do exist within the game and Blizzard is right to address those concerns. You dismissing the very concept of such coercion doesn't mean it doesn't exist and you can't handwave the issues away by sticking your head in the sand. Social obligations, peer pressure and so on exist in the real world as well. We can do without them in game.

People who prefer 25s have to raid 10s if they want to raid at all because of the dimnished amount of 25 man guilds on the servers, now a days in cata.

Because noone wants to lead them. Theres your big problem with 25s. Noone wants to run a raid that size....or well, fairly few do. Given the choice of a format they want with work they hate, and a format they can merely have fun with and a lot lress work to organise it....they prefer 10s

Few people want to lead 25s and many of those that do have become overly picky about who they raid with. Thats not a problem with Blizzard. Thats not a problem with the raid model. Thats a problem with the community.

EJL

[HalseyUS]

These threads really bother me, I don't understand why people keep saying these things over and over when if they wanted to kill 25 mans or let them die they would make 10 mans give the better loot or provide a bigger advantage, as of right now and even into mop, there is neither

[DreamCast]

I was raiding 25 in Wrath because I was forced to by purples.

Now the purple drops same I chose to run 10man.

If there are reward, people are forced to do the one with better reward, if reward is same, people choose to do the one they prefer.

Whats the problem?

No mate, people choose the easiest way to get those purps/achievements/progress and that is 10 man raiding.

If you could do all the raiding content and get the same rewards in a 5 man group that would be the most popular too, and if the 10 man raiders feel 5 mans isn't real raiding, then you know what 25 man raiders think of 10mans

[Deleted]

No. You prefer 10s. Albeit when considering the entire package. You like raiding with 25s, but you don't like the extra work you would need to do to form your own 25. You'd prefer some one else to step up and fill that role.

No i would rather quit than raid in 10s, its ungrateful leading 25s and bloody hart getting recruits of any caliber for em, and if you end up in a dry strech with no recruits your guild dies...
There is a difference between prefering something and seing that something has all the incentives. Atm 10s have all the incentives. you are going to deny it but it is the truth.

Theres physical coercion and psychological coercion.
This is true. They were forced to by an expectation to maintain their standing within their guilds, to maintain a certain level of progression, to help ensure they and their friends and guildies weren't left behind, to avoid the threat of a /gkick if they weren't seen as serious enough and so on.
You may denigrate and dismiss the idea, but its a simple fact such pressures can and do exist within the game and Blizzard is right to address those concerns. You dismissing the very concept of such coercion doesn't mean it doesn't exist and you can't handwave the issues away by sticking your head in the sand. Social obligations, peer pressure and so on exist in the real world as well. We can do without them in game.

So your bff friends in your 10 man guild from wrath wanted to kick you if you didn't raid in a pug ones a week. It ends up coming down to those magical purples for you...
If people wanted to raid in 10s with their friends they could and friends dont force each other to do anything.

Because noone wants to lead them. Theres your big problem with 25s. Noone wants to run a raid that size....or well, fairly few do. Given the choice of a format they want with work they hate, and a format they can merely have fun with and a lot lress work to organise it....they prefer 10s
Few people want to lead 25s and many of those that do have become overly picky about who they raid with. Thats not a problem with Blizzard. Thats not a problem with the raid model. Thats a problem with the community.
EJL

Its more of a problem with recruitment, you cant sell the idea of 25 man raiding to new people because they dont get something out of it and they will have to pass sometimes because there is bench in a 25 man guild. You can say we are a big social group oriented on pve progression but doing other things to, but instinctively 10 man raiders will just say oh ill get into raiding faster in a 10 man get purples faster and get to raid steady.
Meaning that 10s have all the incentives, all the preferential treatment, and 25s just end up being some kind of side option.

On another note i knew a few 10 man groups that strated at bizarre hours during wotlk and did hardcore progression (so you could do hardcore progression if you had wanted to in wotlk). But most normal people sleep at night and raid in the evening for a few hours a week.

oh Dreamcast dont bring out 5 man raiding you know how that brings out the hypocrite in Talen

[lordjust]

...
Its more of a problem with recruitment, you cant sell the idea of 25 man raiding to new people because they dont get something out of it and they will have to pass sometimes because there is bench in a 25 man guild. You can say we are a big social group oriented on pve progression but doing other things to, but instinctively 10 man raiders will just say oh ill get into raiding faster in a 10 man get purples faster and get to raid steady.
Meaning that 10s have all the incentives, all the preferential treatment, and 25s just end up being some kind of side option.

On another note i knew a few 10 man groups that strated at bizarre hours during wotlk and did hardcore progression (so you could do hardcore progression if you had wanted to in wotlk). But most normal people sleep at night and raid in the evening for a few hours a week.

oh Dreamcast dont bring out 5 man raiding you know how that brings out the hypocrite in Talen

Recruitment is tricky because a lot of people don't want to organize 25 people what is a lot harder than organizing 10 people. As for character progression you're wrong. In 25 you get more loot per person from a boss than in 10 and therefore for a lot of hardcore progression guilds 25 man are the only option. But most of the players and guilds aren't interested in hardcore progression and want to raid in an easy and uncomplicated way and it is a lot easier to get 10 people than 25.

[Ghul]

Here's what I would personally do with raid design.

1. Change 10-mans to only ever need one tank. A lot of fights are already 1-tank fights, and those that aren't are basically all about stacking debuffs that force tank swaps. It isn't solo tankable because of difficulty, it's impossible because of the debuff stacking. It isn't a unique or interesting mechanic, they've been doing it since the game released. Furthermore, when you have 2 tanks like normal, and get to a one tank fight, one of them has to switch to DPS. It requires them to have a DPS set in addition to their tank set which causes it's own problems. I can't speak for everyone, because I know some people don't mind switching up every other fight, but a lot of tanks I know personally want to tank and hate DPSing and the same goes for DPS when you try to get them to switch to a tank spec for certain fights or trash. It's just bad design to arbitrarily force a raid comp change on you on every other fight.

2. I'd kill 25 mans and convert them down into 20-mans. This would make them easier to balance than 25 mans in many ways, and also open up an easy way to combine 2 separate 10-man raid teams together into a ready-to-go 20-man raid. You can't do that currently because in addition to 2 teams, you'd need 5 extra people, and you'd also have 2 more tanks than you need. Using my method, you could basically combine ANY two raid teams and it would work out perfect. Having 20-mans be so easy to form and get together than the current 25-mans would also make them much more popular than they are today. Most guilds are 10-man these days, very few actually bother with the hassle of 25. These changes would make raid groups so easy to combine, i'm positive there would be a steep increase in the number of players running these 20 man raids.

But that's just how i'd do it, feel free to disagree.

sounds pretty reasonable and like a good idea imo.

i too was once in the situation where i sometimes had to switch to a tankspecc in 10 mans, even tho im dps and dont like tanking at all.

so thumbs up from me on that one hehe