Poll: Should wealth be redistributed?

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  1. #741
    On issue on any topic including this one is that people think in very binary terms. The fact is though, we can have a system where the wealth is not "redistributed" but those with a whole lot do pay more for our social safety net that keeps us a first-world country. The people who are really rich make MAGNETUDES of money more than those who are poor, we're not talking like a bit more, we're talking so many hundreds of times over. Its rather disgusting when people make the argument that they need that much money, or that making 10% less of a million dollars will suddenly leave them with no incentive to work. Oh no, you have to get a lamborghini without the sun roof option instead so that a few hundred people don't starve. Yes, how terrible.

  2. #742
    Deleted
    No, but I believe the richer you are, the more tax you pay, and I also believe free healthcare should be reserved for those that can't afford private - hospitals are full enough as it is. I also think that white collar crime should be treated equally with other crimes - you do it, you do the time. I don't see why they should be able to store their money and avoid taxes, which harms the economy, and simply get a slap on the wrist - or nothing.
    I also heard recently that some high-ups have been referring to the lower classes as "parasites" and this image comes to mind.


  3. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nautik View Post
    No. Absolutely not. What's the point in working hard if what you earn is going to be taken away?
    What's the point working hard if the opportunity isn't there for you? I'm not for redistribution, but in some cases all people know is red tape stopping them progressing with their life. Some people in the lower classes have had to be taken out of school due to a pull in funding, and that presents a lot of obstacles for later life.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 02:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Well who works harder, Justin Beiber or a Doctor?

    In an ideal world we would have communism and not the communism you people seem to think of (the failed communism attempt that was russia and china) communism is really just all about equality so realisticly its not really a bad thing, rather a way forward.
    You could argue that both of them work just as hard but in different fields, as I'm sure there are some doctors that don't work as hard as others, and some artists that work themselves into the ground doing what they do.

    As for communism, some people are greedy by nature, and in either situation there will always be people going for more, more, more.

  4. #744
    To hell with it The Revolution starts now give me all the money and I will distribute it to another select few the same as all other revolutions
    It is the human condition that a few will control the many, all revolutions do is change the select few

  5. #745
    communism just will never work because of the same reason libertarianism will never work. It relies on humans to be other than humans are.

  6. #746
    I assumed the OP meant confiscate all the dollars in circulation and redistribute them so everyone has an equal share.

    No idea what he planned on doing with debts. Nor do I know what he planned on doing with equities since the richest people in the world are only as such because of their equity stakes in valuable companies (ie warren Buffett owns 300,000 shares of Berkshire Hathaway valued at $120,000 each giving him a net worth of $36bn. He doesn't have $36bn in the bank).

    Income redistribution is done through taxation. Wealth redistribution is done through confiscation of property.
    Last edited by Laize; 2012-05-05 at 01:51 AM.

  7. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I assumed the OP meant confiscate all the dollars in circulation and redistribute them so everyone has an equal share.
    It seems a lot of people thought so. But notice that s/he isn't saying so...indeed, just saying "redistribution of wealth". Taxes is a redistribution of wealth, and unless you want to be without a military, police, fire brigades, education and so on, a country CANNOT avoid those. In short, the OP needs a clarification as to EXACTLY what the post refers to.

    But let's say for the sake of arguement that the OP means "confiscate all the dollars in circulation and redistribute them so everyone has an equal share". That is, in short, a horrible suggestion that would never work. Do that and the result would be insane over-consumerism and wasteage, the economy would probably collapse, and even if it didn't, the money would quickly start accumulating in a lesser number of hands again, as there will always be people who are wasteful as well as people who are frugal. Yes, the hands it accumulated on would not necessarily be the same as before, and some would probably make better use of the money than the current owners, but overall, it would wreak political, economical and environmental havoc.

    Oh, and yes. I AM a socialist, in case you started wondering.

    No, the redistribution of wealth we need is taxation that funds services for those that could not afford them otherwise, medical, educational, police, fire briagdes, military and infrastructure alike, basic services that people are dependant on. If it can also help equalize the wage differencies, all the better.

  8. #748
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    No doubt, it should - it's just too hard to determine precisely how as effort and innovation aren't purely measurable.

  9. #749
    i guess it depends... if a person earned his billions because he has good business going (like wallmart or whatever) then why should anyone take his money from him?
    but if a person earned billions during war years, by "cheating" economy, you know, buying metal for example, then reselling it during war, and all that because he had friends in high places to tell him what's going to increase (in price) what's decrease, then i wouldn't mind getting some of his money ))

  10. #750
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mea View Post
    No doubt, it should - it's just too hard to determine precisely how as effort and innovation aren't purely measurable.
    It's pretty well determined in capitalism. The willingness of others to pay you shows how much your labor/service/product is worth.

    It's impossible for any board of the smartest people in the world to determine it any better.
    Last edited by mmoc43ae88f2b9; 2012-05-05 at 10:23 AM.

  11. #751
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleficus View Post
    Fixed that for ya..and in the US, poverty has not really been reduced despite TRILLIONS of dollars thrown at it.
    Poverty is an accelerator of a shitty sociaty, doesn't matter how you cut it.
    Poverty makes people desperate, desperate people do stupid shit.

    Lets look at sex trafficking for example, a great majority of these girls that get treated as sex slaves are poor and simply just unlucky to be born into the wrong sociaty. Ever driven to Czech Rep from Germany? It's an ungodly sight man(at least when I did) all these fucking 16-17 year old girls from eastern europe standing by their shitty little "love shacks".

    Fuck I'd be willing to pay even more taxes if it meant those girls could have been brought up differently and avoided ending up like that, eastern europe isn't even that bad compared to a lot of other places in the world. Take a look at every shithole we have in this world, the great majority of them are poverty ridden.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  12. #752
    but if a person earned billions during war years, by "cheating" economy, you know, buying metal for example, then reselling it during war, and all that because he had friends in high places to tell him what's going to increase (in price) what's decrease, then i wouldn't mind getting some of his money ))
    That is insider trading, and illegal.

  13. #753
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    That is insider trading, and illegal.
    Insider trading isn't always wrong though. Especially in the example laid out by the person you quoted, his act actually helped society. He bought metals in the pre-war time, when it was plentiful, and sold it when there was a much higher need for the metal during the war. He moved the metal from a time where it was less needed to a time where it was more needed.

  14. #754
    The bit where he got inside (usually confidential) information and used it to make a profit is, however illegal. If he made the investment using publically available information or his own assumptions it would be totally fine.

  15. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    The bit where he got inside (usually confidential) information and used it to make a profit is, however illegal. If he made the investment using publically available information or his own assumptions it would be totally fine.
    I understand it is illegal right now, but the question is if it should be. Because clearly if he had not used this inside info, society would've been worse off.

  16. #756
    One could argue that he is doing society a disservice by restricting the metal supply and holding it to ransom for a greatly inflated price.

  17. #757
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    One could argue that he is doing society a disservice by restricting the metal supply and holding it to ransom for a greatly inflated price.
    No, you could not argue that. It's exactly the opposite. He's preserving metal from a time when it is abundant to be consumed in a time when it is scarce, and makes a profit in between.

    He "saves" the metal from being consumed by people who are unaware of the coming greater need of the metal in the future.

  18. #758
    My Grandfather lived through WWII, fought to survive as his house was bombed and lived in East Berlin (The bad part) where Russian soldiers would regularly come though the streets and steal people away. When he migrated to Australia he worked in a printing facility for the modern equiv. of about ~$4 an hour. over more than a decade he was promoted and become the foreman of the plant. But was fired, personally by the owner, after he lost his thumb in a printing press. He then trained in agriculture, but due to the racist nature of the 80s in Australia he barely could get a job despite his rather in depth knowledge and skills. He is currently 80+ and owns a home worth ~350,000 and works full time as a grounds manager (~$30) - 39% in taxes a year. As the pension in Australia is actually not enough to cover the rates and body corp fees for his house.

    You tell me is this fair, when the CEO of MQ Bank makes mores more in an HOUR than what my grandfather and I BOTH make in a year combined? (I have a Bpsy and a LTCL)

    There needs to be a redistribution of power and a margin of wealth in Australia.
    Last edited by Rekindled; 2012-05-05 at 11:51 AM. Reason: missed a word
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  19. #759
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rekindled View Post
    You tell me is this fair, when the CEO of MQ Bank makes mores more in an HOUR than what my grandfather and I BOTH make in a year combined? (I have a Bpsy and a LTCL)
    Well they hardly make more in an hour. But yes, it's fair. Ofcourse it was unfair that your grandfather was discriminated against, but remember that those who discriminated also lost potential money as they didn't hire your grandfather. A multimilion dollar salary for a CEO is fair, as those who pay for it do so voluntarily because they want that specific CEO.

  20. #760
    I am also not suggesting that the Government come in and say GIVE ME YO MONEY to the top 10%, but how about they pay the tax rate they are meant to pay?

    $54,550 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000

    However, SMH recently stated that those earning over $2mil within Australia pay an effective 12-14% for monies over 180,000. That is wrong.

    While the rich get richer the poor get poorer. I don't have an army of lawyers and accountants. I can't afford one of either, I still have more than 100k in student debt AND I AM STILL STUDYING! I have never been unemployed a day in my life, I work hard, I have learnt as much as I can, worked as hard as I can. When I was 'made redundant' at roughly the same time i fractured my foot and asked for 3 weeks off, I was forced to wait tables for rent. As someone who has more letters after his name than there are letters in my name, I was flabbergasted.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 12:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Well they hardly make more in an hour. But yes, it's fair. Ofcourse it was unfair that your grandfather was discriminated against, but remember that those who discriminated also lost potential money as they didn't hire your grandfather. A multimilion dollar salary for a CEO is fair, as those who pay for it do so voluntarily because they want that specific CEO.

    In 2006 he made 36k an hour. This was highlighted in a news piece when a superannuation fund that his corporation managed went bust, after MQ invested the money in a trust that (what's the word?) Did not exist.... The reporters highlighted that if he would outsource the job while he took a months vacation, the 200 affected would be more than re-payed.

    And for anyone who is about to say "well he didn't lose the money" Well who did, someone is responsible, and the buck is supposed to stops somewhere.

    The current CEO makes 3x that amount.
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