LFR Vote-to-kick Madness

[Deleted]

So my step-son dinged 85 on his rogue a few days ago. We were both pretty stoked because he's been watching me play and raid and all that fun stuff. We spent a few days gearing him up... finally got him to ilvl required to Q for LFR. Some pieces of PvP gear, but fully enchanted and gemmed. The kid is still learning how to play his toon, but he's cerebral as hell and really getting into the fine points (much faster than I did).

So we Q'd up for the first 4. We cleared it. No problems. Was he at the top of the DPS charts? No... but he was learning the fights and trying for some upgrades.

We Q'd for the last 4, finished through Spine with no issues...
Then a couple healers and dps leave the group. The tank pulls DW anyway. 2 healers and 2 dps short, we wipe on the final platform.

Certain people in the group see that my step-son's rogue is at the bottom of the recount meter... they call him "useless" in raid chat, and of course he is VTK'd shortly after.

The kid didn't say anything to anybody. He wasn't AFK. He was trying his ass off. He wasn't even close to being the cause of the only wipe the group suffered, but people needed someone to blame. You should have seen the baffled look on his face.. and mine. I did NOT think he deserved the kick, and was quite upset about it. And I'm usually very good about letting videogame drama roll off my back.

Isn't LFR made for noobs to get a look at some easymodes of Dragon Soul? Maybe get some gear upgrades to improve your dps? I would love to hear interested minds weigh in.

when you say some pieces of pvp gear do you mean 1-3, 5-8 or more? i would guess vast majority.
LFR is not the place to learn how to play his toon.
LFR is not just for noobs as you call them, i use it to see the content as im not in a raiding guild at the moment and ofc get some upgrades AFTER i did normal & heroics on all my chars, buying pvp gear & cheating the system is not the way to do it.
how much dps did he do? we had a rogue last week that did 7k.

[Soisoisoi]

Sorry for the annoyance of LFR, but how much DPS was he doing? To come bottom on DPS in LFR you have to be pretty darn low, and I'm talking less than 8k in most cases. To kill LFR Ultraxion I believe you need DPS at around 14-15k dps. For Deathwing, where you get buffed to shit, everyone in the gear required to do LFR can easily do 25-30k. So I'd probably say around 15k is the lowest I've seen on Madness, not including AFKers or people who die (or those who die to afk), which is far too low for anyone in that gear on that fight.

[Deleted]

Sadly, this happens. If things get too abusive, report them for it and move on

[Darkedged]

Im sorry for you, but if somebody is kicked on madness because of recount, it means he is just too bad for this encounter. It stands out.

I don't agree with that. I have been kicked out of LFR as a healer. My heals per second or total weren't up there with the rest of them, too bad they didn't look to see that my absorbs were boosting my survivability output to a higher standard than the other heals. (Heals + absorbs > = heals of others) People see recount and freak out. They tend to not take into account running between targets as melee vs just tabbing or clicking as range.

[Blackmist]

Until Blizzard realise that the generally terrible WoW community is a monster of their own making, it will continue to grow unchecked.

LFR doesn't need recount to let you kick weak players. It's weak content. It's for weak players. They should disable the combat logging of other players and just show the top 5 at the end of the fight or something. That way epeens still get stroked, people get to see how they're doing, and the new players get to LFR without being booted.

Yeah, you'll still get people auto-attacking/AFKing, but you get that anyway. The game should just kick people automatically if they're AFKing in fights, or spent less than 20% of a fight with the GCD up, etc. Votekick should be for trolls or people pulling to wipe the group. Just make the boss immune until the relevant trash is gone if you want to fix that.

[Deleted]

I find it ridiculous that people get the choice to kick people, i mean your guaranteed to get some idiots that will look for even the smallest reason to rage and boot people from the group, its one of the reason i barely play WoW anymore just because of 90% of the players being awful people with terrible attitudes and not giving anyone a chance to learn.

the kick system as it is requires attention, i was in a group where we couldnt kick anymore people and these people were afk & dead for ages, i bet you would be very happy to kick someone who was afk/dead or doing shocking dps/healing so yes LFR does need a kicking option. LFR is not the place to learn.

---------- Post added 2012-05-20 at 02:01 PM ----------

Well, if he got sad you should teach him how to prevent it.
You know you can queue for random heroics right? It's a pretty fast way to get full pve gear these days. The ordinary pve progress in wow used to be: hit max lvl, farm dungeons on normal, get enough gear so you can queue for heroic dungeons and finally start raiding.
Perhaps you didn't know it worked that way, but now you do and please forward it to your step-son. Perhaps you can help him running heroics to get gear needed as well?
Also, by running heroic dungeons he get to practise dps rotation as well.
Just tell him to stop skipping steps in the future, and he won't have any problem keeping his spot in a raid group.

i agree totally with what you said

[Deleted]

LFR is not just for noobs as you call them, i use it to see the content as im not in a raiding guild at the moment and ofc get some upgrades AFTER i did normal & heroics on all my chars, buying pvp gear & cheating the system is not the way to do it.
how much dps did he do? we had a rogue last week that did 7k.

What matters is that a player performs at or above the expected level. Would you call a player a cheat if he's in full 377 pvp gear pulling 20k on Ultrax? He's contributing to the raid at a satisfactory level.

The real problem lies in a) players loosing interest in maintaining the community (as a side effect of many quality of life improvements like LFD, LFR, cross-realm stuff and so on), and b) long-term players not being fully able to cope with the instant-gratification business model Blizz is following for some time now.

[Deleted]

Yeah, no offense, but I'd be booting people doing low dps in PVP gear, too. It isn't hard to run some heroics, and gear up solely through them or JP/VP. There's no need to be rocking PVP blues just to squeak into LFR and hope to get loot above people actually pulling their weight. I understand the excitement behind getting to run stuff together, but skipping vital steps and literally forcing a group of strangers to carry you to free gear is not only selfish, it's one of the biggest problems plaguing WoW today. Everybody wants something for nothing, and as long as the rest of the group is doing well and downing content, they see no problem with exploiting that fact.

You may not have been trying to take advantage of others, and your stepson may not have directly contributed to the wipe, but it sounds like he wasn't being beneficial to the raid and was replaced like he should've been. Get him running heroics, and after he knows his rotation and has enough gear to at least outdo the non-dps in the raid, then have him enter into LFR. It's supposed to be a step before actual raiding, not a free loot pinata for impatient or lazy people.

speaking of being selfish, i was in a group where a healer also had 2 dps in the group on auto cast/attack. he saw nothing wrong with this despite the fact they both did 5k approx

[Orodoth]

I've been 3rd in dps on the Madness LFR fight, and got kicked after a wipe because I wasn't paying attention, and I was about 6 seconds slower than everyone else to run back and kill a tentacle. Of course, once the train wreck started, it wouldn't stop until there's nothing left to move. I had insults tossed my way, pissy whispers calling me "fail" and "a bad" [both terms of which I abhor, due to the blatant and obvious misuse]. Some healer was paying attention a bit better than me, and called me out.

Obviously though, despite the fact I was pulling above 20k, my inability to focus for those brief 6 seconds was completely the downfall of the raid where multiple wipes had occurred. In no way am I saying I was in the right mind you; the point that I'm getting at is people in LFR will latch on to the first excuse they can, and blame the full share of the wipe on 1 or 2 people.

I don't go in and just auto attack. I'm spamming my combat rogue rotation as fast and as accurately as I can muster.. I suppose in my focus on trying to do it right, I did it wrong.

So OP, from one jilted rogue to another...Eff em'. If they are out for blood, the groups gonna spill someone's, no matter what. Whether the targeted person's actions truly were the downfall of the raid or not.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry to hear what happened to your step son but really, with mostly blue Pvp gear and without unenchanted/ungemmed items I can pull almost 40k on madness with my alt DK, LFR may be easy but it's not just "You carry me, I get gear". When a wipe happens, of course people will blame the weakest (myself included).

If your step son truly likes the game and wants fun, he should first gear up on the heroics and get ready with fully enchanted/gemmed PvE gear, not the best necessarily, a mix of 378-359-365 pieces. And then learn his rotation as a rogue, then he will pull for sure 40k + dps at Madness and as he gears up he will probably be first on the recount (as you don't see often anyone above LFR geared level in Raid Finder DS).

Really, there is no excuse for asking to be carried by people who just want to get done with the run fast, especially at such a point (5-6 months in 4.3). Ok there were 2 dpsers less in the fight, so what? If your son and the other 2 dpses were doing reasonable dps you would have killed it, (provided that healers could handle it too). Although I'm on your side, it must be pretty discouraging to be kicked from your first run on LFR, not all groups are the same. One more thing, since you know how the game works, try giving him a slower but more forgiving way to gear up, don't just throw the kid into raids. Everything needs it's time, it's like you made your baby walk before crawling! Of course it won't have the best results!
Good luck on you and your step son on the next LFR runs and beyond!

[Larwood]

I disagree. From my own experience, you can perform above the threshold (threshold being 15k+ dps on Ultrax) even with full pvp 377 gear.

Absolutely you can. But if you can't, as this guy clearly couldn't, you shouldn't be at all surprised when you get kicked.

---------- Post added 2012-05-20 at 09:16 PM ----------

I don't agree with that. I have been kicked out of LFR as a healer. My heals per second or total weren't up there with the rest of them, too bad they didn't look to see that my absorbs were boosting my survivability output to a higher standard than the other heals. (Heals + absorbs > = heals of others) People see recount and freak out. They tend to not take into account running between targets as melee vs just tabbing or clicking as range.

You would sound like you knew what you were talking about, to anybody who doesn't know that recount includes absorbs in healing.

[Alvito]

Isn't LFR made for noobs to get a look at some easymodes of Dragon Soul? Maybe get some gear upgrades to improve your dps? I would love to hear interested minds weigh in.

There is a limit to this. While I am not one to worry much over recount or loot if I were to do LFR when wipes happen my oppinion changes some. Its not the job of 24 other ppl to carry somebody to new loot. Ppl should be able to do way more dmg then whats needed in a 20% nerfed LFR with whatever qualifies them to queue for it. If they aren't able to cut it the price you pay is having to wait to queue again and get the bosses down you still need. If you still need gear run the 3 DS based 5 mans or pvp some more either will get you better geared then you need to be for that.

[Septik]

i was healing the last 4 on my druid this week, and we wiped on spine cause some idiot was killing extra tents on last plate and the group turned on the healers cause we didnt keep the group up with 2 exploding amalgs.. they vote kicked 2 of us.. thank god for the insta queue healers get tho, the requeue i won the haste staff off dw!

the moral of the story? don't worry, you were vote kicked by some virgin raging in his mother's basement cause lfr is serious!

[Rapti]

Isn't LFR made for noobs to get a look at some easymodes of Dragon Soul? Maybe get some gear upgrades to improve your dps? I would love to hear interested minds weigh in.

Its a food chain still... noobs need to find someone who they can blame stuff on and call noob themselves.
Difference is, your step-son can walk out from noob zone, while those scrubs will stay there .

LFR is shit place to go anyway... If I ever go there its to solo loot Ultrax (and if I cba to continue DW) chest.

[Deleted]

I don't agree with that. I have been kicked out of LFR as a healer. My heals per second or total weren't up there with the rest of them, too bad they didn't look to see that my absorbs were boosting my survivability output to a higher standard than the other heals. (Heals + absorbs > = heals of others) People see recount and freak out. They tend to not take into account running between targets as melee vs just tabbing or clicking as range.

running between targets would not be enough of a dps loss to get you kicked, if it is then your dps is too low to begin with even on a stand still fight

---------- Post added 2012-05-20 at 02:37 PM ----------

What matters is that a player performs at or above the expected level. Would you call a player a cheat if he's in full 377 pvp gear pulling 20k on Ultrax? He's contributing to the raid at a satisfactory level.

The real problem lies in a) players loosing interest in maintaining the community (as a side effect of many quality of life improvements like LFD, LFR, cross-realm stuff and so on), and b) long-term players not being fully able to cope with the instant-gratification business model Blizz is following for some time now.

as others have stated the rogue in question is obviously not able to cheat the system and do any sort of decent expected dps, theres a big difference between someone doing decent dps in pvp gear & someone doing very little as im sure you well know.

[Xavera]

running between targets would not be enough of a dps loss to get you kicked, if it is then your dps is too low to begin with even on a stand still fight

Where you are on Recount doesn't dictate whether you'll be kicked or not. #1 on Recount? Excellent work. Somebody says the group wiped because -=YOU=- stayed on the Winged Tentacle instead of switching to the Mutilated Corruption? It must be true, so you could very well get kicked.

The whole VTK is flawled, and you really can't say it isn't. Even outside of LFR, say dungeons. If a inappropriately geared/unskilled healer can't keep the tank up and causes a wipe... who would be quicker to VTK the other? Who wins the "You cannot que for a dungeon for 30 more minutes" prize?

[announced]

id say just be glad your son is a rogue.. stage1 legendary can be aquired in a day and makes the LFR daggers look like a complete joke.. yes its sad u mighta missed out on 250 valor points but 2 dungeons will do that as well... btw what dps was he doing? id imagine 30k on madness would be pretty avg for ilvl 372 pvp gear.. but ive seen people do less

[foxHeart]

Bad dps gets kicked, that's how it goes. Be curious to know exactly what kind of numbers he pulled. As for myself, mediocre dps is just a part of LFR and there's no possible way to vtk the entire raid (although many times I wish I could), so I don't expect miracles. However, that said, I expect people to at least have a clue what they're doing and for them to contribute, not do 20k dps on madness or afk all of the fights and then wonder why they were kicked. It's just LFR, this is true, but why are people in there? For the social experience? For the valor points? No, they're in there for the gear. Period. And I don't like carrying worthless players to free shit when they would not benefit from it nearly as much as someone who actually knew how to play their class. For instance, I saw Cunning of the Cruel go to some garbage ele shaman who pulled 17k on Xonozz after I'd already suggested booting him. Twas glorious.

[Deleted]

That is why you do not go to LFR. As Blizz said, it is for SEEING THE CONTENT, not inevitably getting gear upgrades. You have seen the content so it upheld it's end of the bargain.

As for the vote kick-Your step son needs to acquire the "shrug it off" talent. If they are out for you every reason is as good as any. Do not care. It will happen again.

And get some decent pve gear, as somebody already mentioned-> dungeons->heroics-> raids, even if it is a shitfest like LFR..it is still a raid.

[Xavera]

For instance, I saw Cunning of the Cruel go to some garbage ele shaman who pulled 17k on Xonozz after I'd already suggested booting him. Twas glorious.

A whole different reason why LFR is for the birds when going for upgrades. Cunning of the Cruel going to enhancement shamans. Wrath of Unchaining going to elemental shamans. Gurthalk going to protection paladins. Souldrinker going to a ret paladin. etc. etc.

Sometimes you'll wish you'd been kicked so you don't have to witness this.