LFR Vote-to-kick Madness

[speakpkhq]

your post says a lot about you as a father (no, i didnt say step father).

when in lfd, whether i'm a tank or a healer or a dps, someone always has something to say. tonight i was tanking the final encounter, had my camera all the way zoomed out and was trying to click on the tentacle to taunt. well, since my back was to the claw, and since the claw is so huge, wherever i clicked, it was the claw. needless to say, the person closest to the tentacle died (it was the noob 7k hps healer, lol) by the time i was in tab target range to taunt it. the healer then went on to absolutely berate the tanks, how we didn't know the fights, should be kicked, etc. when the tentacle died i br'd him, buffed him and when we were on the claw i said, even though there are 2 tanks, "my bad, i had my camera zoomed out and clicking the tentacle only clicked on the claw" - i took the blame even though it was his stupid idea to be all the way back there, and was closest when it spawned even though i was already omw to the area but couldn't click it.

anyway, this all is meant to show you and your son that by default, everyone in the world is first to blame, last to learn. you and he are doing everything right by the sounds of it, and have to put up with the 99% crap people you will lfd with.

sometimes kicks are warranted though. i ran the same lfd THREE TIMES tonight in order to complete it. we kicked "healers" who were dps'ing full time, dps'ers who weren't even beating the tanks in single-target encounters, and dps'ers who were sub-10k. there's just no excuse for any of that. oh, and the people who were in stormwind the whole time. wow.

keep on keepin' on, and explain to him that people simply don't know what they're doing. i've been kicked from 5mans before while tanking (i have 4 380+ tanks lol, and have tanked since 2004, i know what i'm doing...usually ) and have had people leave the pug, create a toon on my realm, and send me a tell saying that they kicked me by mistake, that they meant to kick someone else, and apologize. it comes down to learning/knowing your class, learning the fights, and doing the best you can. everyone makes stupid mistakes (my dbm bars covered "the button" on a few encounters initially, and couldn't click it, oops!) and others even try sabotaging (dps picking up the healing crystals "cuz they can"...) the raid. knowing that you're doing what you should be doing defeats anyone's misguided insults, even if you get kicked or have to /ignore someone.

[Deleted]

A suggestion Excellent, don't go in raids with PvP gear pieces, that's the first rule. Apart this I'm with you, most people are really arrogant and upolite. I don't get why. The rudeness of the WoW community is out of control.

[Deleted]

Too ridiculous for words. LFR is intended for those who are learning their class and gearing up. This means those people may not have an optimal talent spread, the right rotation, etc. I dragged a mage through LFR the other week with only 5 hours /played at 85, and the comments I saw directed at my DPS was just bloody silly. Someone on Spine who had 40k DPS telling the group the reason we wiped on that boss was because a few of us were doing ~15k DPS. I feared being kicked until someone else in the group pointed out that the fight was all about control not numbers, and that usually the highest DPS are the ones to blame for a wipe. The guy was kicked and 3-4 of his mates left, and we killed it easily with 4-5 empty spots.

LFR is sadly not a very nice place to be. It's full of people who think they're "God's Gift" to raiding when actually those people probably spend most of their time farming level 80 titles so they can at least pretend to be half decent. The only time they get to top the meters is in LFR and they think it gives them the right to judge everyone else.

While the situation you described might happen sometimes, this is not the case most of the time. In my experience running couple of alts through LFR to get a decent set of gear, I mostly saw the PvP geared, the ones that afk, etc. getting carried by people who play correctly. Sure, I can understand your DPS may not be 40-50k because of your gear, but when I see people with less DPS than it was possible an expansion ago in iLvl 372 (min req for LFR) I can't think of any other reason except they're bad or just slacking.

LFR may be intended for people to get the feel of the fights, but in order for it to work those guys need to make an effort which I don't see in most cases. As for learning their class, I'm sorry, but what the hell have they been doing while leveling up and the dungeons they ran to get the required iLvl to enter LFR? Yes, leveling up doesn't teach you much atm, but there are ways of learning your class if you're willing to.

LFR is not a very nice place to be because of those I just described as much as it is because of those you described.

[SunbakedDuck]

if i was there i would have voted to kick aswell..LFR is not the place to gear and learn ur class its fucking ENDGAME CONTENT!!! u run heroics until u know what ur doing.
also i hate people who buy ilvl 377 pvp blues to get into twilight heroics and then i gotta carry their ass...its sad honestly, if ur under 20k dps by the time ur doing twilight heroics i will most likely kick u from my group and do what i can to prevent u getting loot because its simple..u dont deserve it, ur not carrying ur own weight..ur so lazy and god knows what else that u just buy 377 boes without knowing a thing about ur class and then hope to get loot?nono thats not how things work >.< i might seem like a dick to you guys but its just my opinion . people who are sleazebags and dont know what they are doing dont deserve anything.

[Hoddie]

While the situation you described might happen sometimes, this is not the case most of the time. In my experience running couple of alts through LFR to get a decent set of gear, I mostly saw the PvP geared, the ones that afk, etc. getting carried by people who play correctly. Sure, I can understand your DPS may not be 40-50k because of your gear, but when I see people with less DPS than it was possible an expansion ago in iLvl 372 (min req for LFR) I can't think of any other reason except they're bad or just slacking.

LFR may be intended for people to get the feel of the fights, but in order for it to work those guys need to make an effort which I don't see in most cases. As for learning their class, I'm sorry, but what the hell have they been doing while leveling up and the dungeons they ran to get the required iLvl to enter LFR? Yes, leveling up doesn't teach you much atm, but there are ways of learning your class if you're willing to.

LFR is not a very nice place to be because of those I just described as much as it is because of those you described.

I went from doing 20-25k DPS at level 80 to about 8k DPS at level 81. There was a reset across the board.

I understand what you're saying to a point but I still don't think it justifies kicking someone with low DPS unless you've been watching their every move and they are slacking or failing on something very basic in some way. You don't learn much levelling a class to 85 these days; levelling is usually a 2-3 ability rotation if that, and yes you could go and whack a dummy or two but it's much more entertaining - and rewarding (loot) - to hit LFR instead. I actually did a few heroics with my mage before going to LFR, in order to pick up the gear necessary to be able to queue for DS, but again they're not exactly taxing these days, especially when you usually have at least 2 people in the group who over-gear them by some considerable distance.

Comparing a T11 raider to those in LFR also isn't a fair comparison. Most people raiding T11 will have done so in a half-decent group. With food. With optimal group buffs. With a raid leader. With a plan. With /target macros. With addons. On the face of it people in LFR should be throwing out T11 levels of DPS at least, but consider going back in time and doing T11 without any of the things I just listed - and you'd struggle to get out the numbers too. People new to raiding - the very people that LFR is aimed at - are still in many cases finding their feet. They might not have the right addons, potions, flasks and everything else that you had when knocking Nef on his ass. People used to learn their trade in Kara. People now learn their trade in LFR. Just as a SWP-geared toon might lord it over those still working their way through Kara, we now have normal-DS geared toons lording it over others in LFR. It's a bit silly and it says more about them than it does about those they're trying to get kicked.

@SunbakedDuck - yes you're a WOW GOD!!!!! Just running a heroic with you is my idea of heaven. Wait. No. It's. Not.

[Deleted]

You're the living reason why the WoW community sucks. 'Cause of douchebags like you. Ah, wait, you've been banned from the site. This says everything. Enjoy being an asshat.

Wait a sec. So because he doesn't agree with you, he's a douchebag? That's a rather odd conclusion tbh and I guess I'm a douchebag too then. How weird I've not been banned yet then, I mean, having a different opinion than you obviously means that people are asshats and douchebags right?

As Luftmangle said and as I said as well, LFR is NOT intended for players to learn the very basics of their class. If you can't do more than 15k on Madness in LFR, something is really wrong. I mean really really wrong, to the point where you are indeed being carried by someone else. To the point where, if everyone else also did the impressing 15k, you wouldn't even kill the boss.

So before you get all up in arms, think about that for a moment. How fun would LFR be, if it only consisted of players like the OP's stepson, Hoddie's Mage (the one with 5 hours /played at lvl 85), the people in PvP gear and the people who are in general just clueless? What would happen in LFR, if there weren't players pulling 40k+, healers healing for 3 LFR geared people, tanks able to solo tank, cause the other tank just failed and died?

So please do keep this in mind, when you start your QQ'ing about how the rest of us should behave and how we should think about LFR. Since I'm carrying at least 2 scrub healers in LFR every week, when I cap on my healing alts or try to win the odd trinket. So yes, it's douchebags and asshats like myself, that drags your sorry ass through the encounters, when you decide to bring your shitty toon with no gear and no knowledge about how to actually play it.

Sincerely the douchebag-asshat.

[snozzberry]

So with WoW being a barren wasteland this week due to D3 release, LFR has been pretty insufferable. I was a healer in a group that wiped on Ultraxion 5 times to hard enrage. The top two DPS in the group over the course of 5 wipes (and the subsequent drops/queues) were doing no more than 22k. Everyone else was sub-20k. Literally, the group was wiping to nothing but bad DPS. Finally someone queued in doing about 40k and it was enough for us to complete the fight.

The moral of this story is: No, LFR is not the place for all the bads to go and get carried to ezmode victory. If everyone did that, we would all wipe repeatedly on gear check fights. I don't make it a habit of votekicking severe underperformers. Particularly when I'm on DPS toons, this rarely comes into consideration. When you play a toon that does good DPS, it's enough to carry through DPS checks, and no one has to kick the bottom DPS hoping to cycle in a good one. But on my healing toons I run into this all the time. If there isn't at least a couple of decent DPS to mitigate the DPS checks, wipes are really frustrating.

That said, the funniest thing I ever saw in LFR was when a tank queued for Fall and after Blackhorn he notified the raid that he only needed first two and wished us the best of luck in completing the raid before leaving. The DPS who came in dead last below the tanks said to the raid: "Ugh that guy totally wasted our time."

The people who are quickest to snap at others are almost never the ones doing the heavy lifting.

[Hoddie]

As Luftmangle said and as I said as well, LFR is NOT intended for players to learn the very basics of their class. If you can't do more than 15k on Madness in LFR, something is really wrong. I mean really really wrong, to the point where you are indeed being carried by someone else. To the point where, if everyone else also did the impressing 15k, you wouldn't even kill the boss.

So before you get all up in arms, think about that for a moment. How fun would LFR be, if it only consisted of players like the OP's stepson, Hoddie's Mage (the one with 5 hours /played at lvl 85), the people in PvP gear and the people who are in general just clueless? What would happen in LFR, if there weren't players pulling 40k+, healers healing for 3 LFR geared people, tanks able to solo tank, cause the other tank just failed and died?

Madness is different in that you get the buff. Every other fight in there is possible with 15k DPS. Curious why you picked out the one fight where people who do 15k would probably be doing 25k by doing the exact same things (more for multi-dotting classes).

[Gottalot]

One week ago I dinged 85 on my Lazer Chicken. This is my 3rd lvl 85 char. The other 2 is raiding DS HC atm. Anyway, 3 days later I found my self in LFR.
On Madness Tank pulls and we lack 3 healers. So I found my self healing as Balance and did quite good tbh. We wiped on the last platform and soon
peeps just went bananas in raid chat. Dissing peeps left to right. I was also vote kicked due to low dps ...

What Im trying to say here is that I consider myself as a decent player. Not worldclass but a good player that has been raiding everything from TBC
and onwards (was a noob in vanilla . A kick in LFR is nothing to even get bothered about. Tell your kid that. It says nothing about the player.
Just encourage him to move on and everything will be fine. Good luck!

[Deleted]

Madness is different in that you get the buff. Every other fight in there is possible with 15k DPS. Curious why you picked out the one fight where people who do 15k would probably be doing 25k by doing the exact same things (more for multi-dotting classes).

Oh really? You get a buff? Guess all those weeks doing 8/8 HM never taught me that...... I'm curious as to why this is the only thing you pick out of my post, since my example was (true) making a point, the fact still stands. But let me make an example that will be clear enough for you as well then. 15k on Ultraxion and gg enjoy your wipe. The fact still stands, that for every scrub unable to push more than 15k on any given boss, there's someone else carrying them. Hell, 15k is way below tank dps.

And btw. 25k on Madness is still shit......

[Praest]

LFR is just hilarious. I've myself had a few "interesting" encounters.

Once on my fury warrior I died during trashkilling on Hagara. She landed and stood there patiently waiting for us for about 30+ seconds. None ressed me, despite me asking for it in raidchat. Tank gets impatient, ofc, and pulls. I lay there dead as a doornail while the rest of the raid kills her. I figured I wouldn't get to roll on anything since I was dead the entire time, but I roll and win a tier token. And the roll-losers go on a rampage. "He was afk the entire fight and wins. gg."

On the same warrior, only queued as tank, I get votekicked on madness because of bad tanking on spine. Only, I wasn't doing anything wrong, afaik. The other tank, however, was all over the place. I tried tanking the amalgamations, but he kept taunting off of me so I gave that up. And then he proceeded to tank them at the back. Or in the middle. Not picking up the bloods until it was too late. My "mistake" was probably trying to taunt off of him to get the amalgamation to the front just in time, which missed by a few seconds.

On my holy priest I got votekicked for not doing enough healing after a wipe on madness. I tried to explain that I had fallen into that chasmbug early on, but I got zoned out shortly after typing that.

In my experience, there are always a few people with a loose triggerfinger that starts a votekick and everyone else just clicks accept because they just want the thing done and "if they kick him, then they won't kick me".

But, all in all, I have had far more "good" LFRs than bad, so it all evens out and falls into the positive category in the long run, at least for me. I try to complement exceptional good behaviour in raidchat every now and then. "That was some seriously nice solotanking! (as the other tank died)" "The DPS really messed up, but the healers were exceptional and saved the day!" If the raidchat is positive, people tend to be more forgiving. If the raidchat turns into a blamegame, it usually ends with half the raid gone and a ninjapull on the way.

[Hoddie]

Oh really? You get a buff? Guess all those weeks doing 8/8 HM never taught me that...... I'm curious as to why this is the only thing you pick out of my post, since my example was (true) making a point, the fact still stands. But let me make an example that will be clear enough for you as well then. 15k on Ultraxion and gg enjoy your wipe. The fact still stands, that for every scrub unable to push more than 15k on any given boss, there's someone else carrying them. Hell, 15k is way below tank dps.

And btw. 25k on Madness is still shit......

It isn't my fault you're not aware of the buffs provided by the Aspects. And yes, 25k on Madness is shit. But not for a newly dinged level 85 which is the point I was making.

Without taking tank DPS into account, Ultraxion requires approx 17k DPS from the DPS on raid finder. Add in tank DPS and normal DPS spread across the classes (some will do more, some less) and 15k DPS for a non DOT class is about right. Having said that Blizzard tuned these fights knowing damn well that every LFR run will have over-geared toons joining in. It stands to reason. Around 15k DPS for LFR is fine, assuming that on some fights you'd do more and on some fights perhaps slightly less.

To expect newly-dinged level 85s, probably with a sprinkling of PVP gear in order to make the ilvl requirements to queue, to be throwing out competitive DPS with someone who has ran LFR and normal modes multiple times (and probably some heroic kills also) is a bit silly, even you have to admit that.

[Deleted]

It isn't my fault you're not aware of the buffs provided by the Aspects.
[..]
To expect newly-dinged level 85s, probably with a sprinkling of PVP gear in order to make the ilvl requirements to queue, to be throwing out competitive DPS[..]

A. I'm betting that was sarcasm on his part.
B. How about not joining in PvP gear? How about spending an extra day on heroics before getting the iLvl requirement with proper gear?

To be honest, you're making it harder for me to feel bad about people getting kicked when you purposely enter LFR with honor gear. When you do that, you must expect to be carried to a certain extent and I can't sympathize with your point of view at all. I mean, with 4% hit (assuming you're at least PvP capped) and resilience making up a lot of your item budget, you must be aware that you can't do your part.

[Hoddie]

A. I'm betting that was sarcasm on his part.
B. How about not joining in PvP gear? How about spending an extra day on heroics before getting the iLvl requirement with proper gear?

To be honest, you're making it harder for me to feel bad about people getting kicked when you purposely enter LFR with honor gear. When you do that, you must expect to be carried to a certain extent and I can't sympathize with your point of view at all. I mean, with 4% hit (assuming you're at least PvP capped) and resilience making up a lot of your item budget, you must be aware that you can't do your part.

When my mage entered DS for the first time he was 17% hit-capped and had rare gems and cheap enchants throughout. I had 5 hours /played time at level 85, enough to run a few heroics which got me enough gear to enter. I had a PVP cape and PVP shoulders because the heirloom items in those slots gave me no chance of getting the required ilvl. I really don't see the problem with someone doing 15k DPS in LFR, unless they're doing all sorts of other shit wrong as well. You can have incredible DPS but if you're on the wrong target or you're standing where you shouldn't be, you're a bigger liability than the toon doing 15k DPS in PVP gear.

[ipaq]

You're the living reason why the WoW community sucks. 'Cause of douchebags like you. Ah, wait, you've been banned from the site. This says everything. Enjoy being an asshat.

Eeee.... He's right btw.

But grats into baiting the Mods into banning him.

[Deleted]

I don't get all the people complaining about him skipping stuff. Heroic dungeons are way harder than lfr and everybody knows it. Atm this is the order of difficulty in content: LFR > HoT Heroics > normal mode dungeons > old heroic dungeons > ZA/ZG > Normal mode ds > heroic ds
Something is not right here, there should be a learning curve not content getting easier every next step and then hitting a wall -.-

[Deleted]

You can have incredible DPS but if you're on the wrong target or you're standing where you shouldn't be, you're a bigger liability than the toon doing 15k DPS in PVP gear.

While technically true, how many times have you actually seen people with *incredible* DPS doing the things you said? ..'cause most of the time it's the people who are still learning their class that are doing that.

[Sykol]

To expect newly-dinged level 85s, probably with a sprinkling of PVP gear in order to make the ilvl requirements to queue, to be throwing out competitive DPS with someone who has ran LFR and normal modes multiple times (and probably some heroic kills also) is a bit silly, even you have to admit that.

You see nothing wrong with that sentence there? I'm not saying everyone needs to be competitive their first time out, but there's a point where half-assing it just so you can get carried is beyond silly. It's insulting to the people there that actually took the time out to learn their class and gear their toon. And while I understand wanting to be the white knight and coddle everyone, as evidenced by the slew of responses in here cheering on the OP and his stepson, that doesn't do any good for the new players doing poor dps in PVP blues and quest rewards that don't exactly suit their class but boost their iLVL, or the groups that get saddled with them.

All you do by encouraging this type of behavior is teach players that it's perfectly acceptable to just not put in the effort because someone else will do it for them. What happens when everyone else gets sick of this and does the same thing? 25 players pulling 8-12k and then calling for LFR nerfs because the content is too hard is not a future I look forward to. And it isn't an elitist attitude I carry, but simply common goddamn courtesy for the 4 or 9 or 24 other people I run with.

[Doggyballs]

Don't let people in Looking for Retards get to you. Simple as that.
No point trying to understand or getting worked up about it, just sigh at how bad the community is, shake your head, smile and continue with your day.

[Deleted]

It's hardly personal. I probably wouldn't have kicked him in that situation. Unless of course he was ridiculously low on damage (although madness is a bad fight to determine that). You didn't actually give us any facts or numbers to go with your story so it's really just a story of a dad being protecting his step son with possible exaggerations to defend the step son.
Just how "bad" was he? How had he done on ultraxion?

It really should have been expected and you should have been ready for it. Seriously just shrug it off. If it was his first time actually doing the fights then there are obviously certain parts of the fights he will not be practised at, putting him at a major disadvantage. All he can really do is just keep going and practise his class that little bit more while slowly collecting some gear upgrades to help his numbers.
Expect more kicks. Because until he's proficient at his class (proficient being the point at which you can do a dungeon/raid without being kicked) people aren't going to like it. There is a generic level of skill that the majority of players expect other players to have, and I think that's completely fair and reasonable to expect of other people.