Poll: Is Jaina's new character something you're looking forward to?

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  1. #1161
    I love it.

    She's getting development past "I'm the strongest living mage in the world. Who wants to study under me?"

  2. #1162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Even alliance hates gnomes.
    There is no bigger blow to my ego

    Then to be killed by a 2 foot gnome

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-09 at 09:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wopotter View Post
    Jaina betrayed her own father and his soldiers to the Orcs. Unless Metzen is keen on producing another LoreLOL KulTiras must see her as a traitor. Especially as her father was right all along.
    The Orcs can use that same exact argument

    Why didnt we destroy Thermore before?
    The humans just attacked us again years later

    Why do we even try and work with humans.
    They always attack us, hell even undead humans betrayed and attacked us
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-06-09 at 09:03 PM.

  3. #1163
    The Orcs can use that same exact argument

    Why didnt we destroy Thermore before?
    The humans just attacked us again years later

    Why do we even try and work with humans.
    They always attack us, hell even undead humans betrayed and attacked us
    Actually, every single time the Humans has 'allied' with the Orcs, its been the Orcs that has stabbed the Humans in the back. Most of the time while they are still 'allied'.

  4. #1164
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Nuking is still nuking regardless of whether you use a clean or dirty bomb. Beside...if he was to try and build a Horde settlement on the remains of Theramore that would be pretty evil.
    .
    Are you of the opinion that any form of waging war is evil?

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-09 at 09:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Actually, every single time the Humans has 'allied' with the Orcs, its been the Orcs that has stabbed the Humans in the back. Most of the time while they are still 'allied'.
    really?
    Orcs never stabbed the humans in the back when Thrall and Jaina banded together against the Legion
    and thats pretty much the only time the Alliance and Horde ever "Allied"
    Horde/Alliance relations have been "Cold War" status since after Jaina's father screwed things up
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-06-09 at 09:52 PM.

  5. #1165
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Are you of the opinion that any form of waging war is evil?

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-09 at 09:23 PM ----------


    really?
    Orcs never stabbed the humans in the back when Thrall and Jaina banded together against the Legion
    and thats pretty much the only time the Alliance and Horde ever "Allied"
    Horde/Alliance relations have been "Cold War" status since after Jaina's father screwed things up

    When the aim is a) genocide, or b)slavery, yes...war is evil and with the way Garrosh has the orcs whipped up those are the only two feasible outcomes if the Horde were to win the war.
    STRESS
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  6. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    When the aim is a) genocide, or b)slavery, yes...war is evil and with the way Garrosh has the orcs whipped up those are the only two feasible outcomes if the Horde were to win the war.
    Yet there is no proof that genocide is the Horde's aim.

    The "spark" that started the war was the Horde's need of supplies for survival
    and since the Alliance would resist the Horde, they are now at war trying to defeat each other

    Nowehere have the orcs set up death-camps, or have they been murdering people outside of battle

  7. #1167
    Orcs never stabbed the humans in the back when Thrall and Jaina banded together against the Legion
    and thats pretty much the only time the Alliance and Horde ever "Allied"
    I think Sandrox is talking about the Broken Front.

    Edit:

    Yet there is no proof that genocide is the Horde's aim.
    Garrosh Hellscream yells: Then we will stand astride this world as its masters -
    Garrosh Hellscream yells: Today, WE will remake the world. OUR world. FOR THE HORDE!

    So we've got genocide from the Forsaken (The "murder everything" plague and the "turn ALL the living" plague) and slavery--at best--from the orcs.
    Last edited by Blayze; 2012-06-09 at 10:36 PM.
    It became clear that it wasn’t realistic to try to get the audience back to being more hardcore, as it had been in the past. -- Tom Chilton

  8. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayze View Post
    I think Sandrox is talking about the Broken Front.
    yeah but they were not "Allies" in Wrath

    Horde and Alliance forces were activaly fighting each other
    Hell, Varian more or less declared war against the Horde at Undercity

  9. #1169
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    yeah but they were not "Allies" in Wrath

    Horde and Alliance forces were activaly fighting each other
    Hell, Varian more or less declared war against the Horde at Undercity

    YOU'VE ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD


    So you're willing to say that Varian outright declared war on the Horde, to which I agree...with no provocation WHATSOEVER? Oh, and fyi, they were tentative allies before the Wrathgate. otherwise Bolvar and Saurfang jr. wouldn't work together.

    Back to the matter at hand. Your willing to say that Varian and Varian alone started the short war in Wrath, with words.

    Yet Garrosh INVADES Ashenvale and you hem and haw and "oh it's not his fault, he's fighting for race's survival". Again I say, who gives a damn. He cared not a whit for negotiation and he fired the first shot, literally not figuratively, like Varian did in Wrath.

    And as a parting shot, I give you the summary of what they REALLY wanted in Ashenvale, taken from the back of Wolfheart.

    Hungering for more resourcesamid the turmoil, the Horde has pressed into Ashenvale to feed it's burgeoning WAR MACHINE.

    War Machine...huh. Interesting.
    STRESS
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  10. #1170
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    YOU'VE ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD
    So you're willing to say that Varian outright declared war on the Horde, to which I agree...with no provocation WHATSOEVER? Oh, and fyi, they were tentative allies before the Wrathgate. otherwise Bolvar and Saurfang jr. wouldn't work together.
    Back to the matter at hand. Your willing to say that Varian and Varian alone started the short war in Wrath, with words.
    Yet Garrosh INVADES Ashenvale and you hem and haw and "oh it's not his fault, he's fighting for race's survival". Again I say, who gives a damn. He cared not a whit for negotiation and he fired the first shot, literally not figuratively, like Varian did in Wrath.
    And as a parting shot, I give you the summary of what they REALLY wanted in Ashenvale, taken from the back of Wolfheart.
    Hungering for more resourcesamid the turmoil, the Horde has pressed into Ashenvale to feed it's burgeoning WAR MACHINE.
    War Machine...huh. Interesting.
    I never said Varian decalred war without reason
    People always have reasons for doing whatever, its up to you wheter you agree with their reason or not

    The Horde and Alliance were not part of a military alliance when marching toward ICC
    They were neutral toward each other, more or less

    They decided to combine their armies at the Wrath-Gate
    Which turned out to be a pretty awsome momnent, having Horde and Alliance fight side by side against the best of the Scourge
    Until some jack-asses had to screw it up

    Varian only figuetivily declared war against the Horde?
    He clashed blades with the Horde leadership
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-06-09 at 11:50 PM.

  11. #1171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    The Horde and Alliance were not part of a military alliance when marching toward ICC
    They were neutral toward each other, more or less
    Actually, they were at the odds with each other on ICC. AKA the Battleships fight. Heck, Icecrown is a 4-way all the way up, Ashen Verdict vs Scourge and Scourge vs Alliance vs Horde.

    There was a short truce between the Tournament and the Assault, but when the knocked the door down, it was like the Americans and Soviets fighting for the Moon.

  12. #1172
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    I never said Varian decalred war without reason
    People always have reasons for doing whatever, its up to you wheter you agree with their reason or not

    The Horde and Alliance were not part of a military alliance when marching toward ICC
    They were neutral toward each other, more or less

    They decided to combine their armies at the Wrath-Gate
    Which turned out to be a pretty awsome momnent, having Horde and Alliance fight side by side against the best of the Scourge
    Until some jack-asses had to screw it up

    Varian only figuetivily declared war against the Horde?
    He clashed blades with the Horde leadership

    He declared it first, then goes charging in. Guess it's different for everyone, because when I did the quest Jaina stopped us before the fight even started.

    And they weren't neutral per se. They were TRYING to work together...at least Saurfang Sr. was when you do that quest to return an Alliance deserter. Which is probably why Varian seems to like and respect the old guy.
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  13. #1173
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    He declared it first, then goes charging in. Guess it's different for everyone, because when I did the quest Jaina stopped us before the fight even started.

    And they weren't neutral per se. They were TRYING to work together...at least Saurfang Sr. was when you do that quest to return an Alliance deserter. Which is probably why Varian seems to like and respect the old guy.
    Thrall and Varian, along with everyone in their groups actually exchange blows, but no one dies
    They actually engage in combat
    and then Jaina busts out her mage powers

    thats why i said they were neutral "more or less"
    They were not activaly waging war against each other
    Nor were they in an alliance

    They were both trying to be neutreal, and go bout their own efforts, but like throughout Warcraft history
    Old Hatrds do not die easily

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-10 at 12:35 AM ----------

    and just to clarify, I never said that Garrosh was not at fault for invading Ashenvele

    I another thread, I just expalined why people should stop saying "omgz, orcs so dumb for loosing so much supplies"
    Because them loosing supplies happneed because of events outside of their control

    Durotar is not a crappy place
    But it isnt the most lush either

    and people say, "well make Durtar better, like the Druids did with Western Plauglenads"
    Yeah, well making a dirty woodlands into a clean woodlands, is not the same as making a desert into a jungle

    The War against the Scourge cost the Horde much both in lives and supplies
    And after winning, would be a perfect time to recover and live peacefully right?
    Except the Elemental Unrest not only made it difficult for the Horde to replace supplies, but made them loose even more supplies

    The Night Elves were very reluctant to even meet with Hamuel
    and after their reps were killed by "Horde" assasins, just how willing do you think the Night Elves would negotate again?
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-06-10 at 12:37 AM.

  14. #1174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Varian only figuetivily declared war against the Horde?
    He clashed blades with the Horde leadership
    In a "war" which was never, ever mentioned again, in game or out of game. Is a war which is never fought a war?

    EJL

  15. #1175
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Thrall and Varian, along with everyone in their groups actually exchange blows, but no one dies
    They actually engage in combat
    and then Jaina busts out her mage powers

    thats why i said they were neutral "more or less"
    They were not activaly waging war against each other
    Nor were they in an alliance

    They were both trying to be neutreal, and go bout their own efforts, but like throughout Warcraft history
    Old Hatrds do not die easily

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-10 at 12:35 AM ----------

    and just to clarify, I never said that Garrosh was not at fault for invading Ashenvele

    I another thread, I just expalined why people should stop saying "omgz, orcs so dumb for loosing so much supplies"
    Because them loosing supplies happneed because of events outside of their control

    Durotar is not a crappy place
    But it isnt the most lush either

    and people say, "well make Durtar better, like the Druids did with Western Plauglenads"
    Yeah, well making a dirty woodlands into a clean woodlands, is not the same as making a desert into a jungle

    The War against the Scourge cost the Horde much both in lives and supplies
    And after winning, would be a perfect time to recover and live peacefully right?
    Except the Elemental Unrest not only made it difficult for the Horde to replace supplies, but made them loose even more supplies

    The Night Elves were very reluctant to even meet with Hamuel
    and after their reps were killed by "Horde" assasins, just how willing do you think the Night Elves would negotate again?

    Here's the thing. The Barren's is not a desert. The land there is completely liveable even if you just live off the land. And that's what the orcs did. They put too much stock in the trade they did with Theramore and Mulgore, and the resources they...acquired...from Ashenvale. You say that the supplies they lost were events outside of their control. That is not so.

    They're living in a world compounded by conflict even without the unshakable Alliance v Horde deal. They had the Silithid to deal with, and the initial Naxxramas assault.if they're capable of gathering supplies for the AQ event they're more than capable of laying in stocks against other situations. I'm not saying that THIS situation is of Garrosh's making, but rather the orcs as a whole, or probably Thrall's.

    They had the four years between WC3 and the seven years that WoW has been out, for a total of ELEVEN years to try and develop their own infrastructure, but they haven't. I'm not saying they'd make Durotar or the Barrens a forest, but it could definetly be less...Barren. They've gotten themselves into war after war, conflict after conflict and they never had even the inkling of trying to make themselves self sufficient. And they have the ideal shaman x druid combo to do it if the thought even entered their heads.

    You say it was events out of their control? I call crap on that since they've never tried to improve their station other than repeatedly hacking away at Ashenvale and worsening relations with the Night Elves.

    The Alliance went through just as much, if not more, against the Scourge as the Horde, but they were able to recover because they've spent time improving their supply situation instead of building more tanks and catapults.

    And the biggest rub comes to your last question. If...big IF...Garrosh or any other Horde leader had approached Jaina about interceding on their behalf with the Night elves, they'dve found her receptive, and she'd likely have gone straight to Mal and boom bam bling, Alliance once again extends the hand of friendship.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-10 at 01:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    In a "war" which was never, ever mentioned again, in game or out of game. Is a war which is never fought a war?

    EJL

    Meh, it was mentioned...or rather the treaty it led to...in the Shattering during the scene in the Cathedral honoring all the Alliance dead.
    STRESS
    The confusion caused when one's mind
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    desire to choke the living shit out of
    some jerk who desperately needs it

  16. #1176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    And after winning, would be a perfect time to recover and live peacefully right?
    Except the Elemental Unrest not only made it difficult for the Horde to replace supplies, but made them loose even more supplies
    It was the same for the Alliance as well. The Alliance, however, did not go seeking a war. Further, Garrosh had other options. You may dismiss the idea of tapping into the Shaman and Druidic community, but it was still an option. As was trading with the Goblins and other races. Garrosh was willing to ship in huge amounts of water to Orgimmar. Which reminds me...how much of the problems the Horde face are self wrought? Orgrimmars water supply is poisoned because Garrosh engages goblins for war and their industry isn't the cleanest around.

    Garrosh refused to trade. With anyone. Even if the NElfs had been willing, Garrosh does not trade. Not "can not" trade. Won't trade. Trade is for the weak.
    He poisoned his own peoples water supply.
    He is willing to bring in huge amounts of water from Mulgore. Why not food?

    For all the talk of needing resources, theres very little in lore to suggest Garrosh is actually that interested. He's spending huge amount of resources on war and tidying up the messes he is making.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    Meh, it was mentioned...or rather the treaty it led to...in the Shattering during the scene in the Cathedral honoring all the Alliance dead.
    There was a treaty. And there was indeed conflict. But there has been conflict since Vanilla. There was conflict before UC in LK, and there was conflict after UC in LK. There was not, however, any mention of a war. No indication of it. No quests. No stories and nothing to indicate a war began at UC. Fighting? Yes. The end of cooperation? Yes. A War? Varian committed an act of war in response to what he saw in the Apothecarium. Did Thrall, some one who didn't want a fight, do anything to retaliate?

    As I said, when Varian did nothing more than attack Thrall...serious, yes...does that automatically mean a state of war exists?

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-06-10 at 02:27 AM.

  17. #1177
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    As I said, when Varian did nothing more than attack Thrall...serious, yes...does that automatically mean a state of war exists?
    During the Battle for the Undercity: "I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
    The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
    I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
    What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.
    ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!"

    By Thrall: "It ends like it began...
    All that we have fought for in this world is lost. The hopes and dreams carried by my father and mother... by Doomhammer... Gone..."

    Quest Text: "For too long have the Horde been left unchecked. We allowed their territories to prosper and in return for our generosity they plotted and planned our demise.

    Peace? Useless... it's gotten us nowhere. We have lost some of our greatest heroes to "peace." Let us see what battle brings.
    "

    During the Elemental Bonds: "King Varian...you wish to make war on my people?! You shall have your war, human! You will see the fury of the Horde rage through your cities! You will see your throne split in two! THIS I SWEAR!!"

    so, yes. the game went out of it's way to say war was back. I think the situation is better illustrated by ulduar's trailer, when varian and garrosh try killing each other in dalaran (a sanctuary zone lol).
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  18. #1178
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    so, yes. the game went out of it's way to say war was back. I think the situation is better illustrated by ulduar's trailer, when varian and garrosh try killing each other in dalaran (a sanctuary zone lol).
    It was a nice speech. It wasn't a declaration of war. Did Varian or thrall move armies around to fight each other? No. Was there ever any mention of a war in any source? No. Any quests? No. Any conflict that can be tied back to this "declaration"? No.

    The only thing that suggest it was anything more than what it appears to be - Varian losing his temper and attacking - is an interpretation, unsupported by any in game event or in lore information, that the situation then devolved not just into raised tensions, but into a full fledged state of war that Blizzard simply had occur in the background of the game.

    EJL

  19. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It was the same for the Alliance as well. The Alliance, however, did not go seeking a war. Further, Garrosh had other options. You may dismiss the idea of tapping into the Shaman and Druidic community, but it was still an option. As was trading with the Goblins and other races. Garrosh was willing to ship in huge amounts of water to Orgimmar. Which reminds me...how much of the problems the Horde face are self wrought? Orgrimmars water supply is poisoned because Garrosh engages goblins for war and their industry isn't the cleanest around.

    Garrosh refused to trade. With anyone. Even if the NElfs had been willing, Garrosh does not trade. Not "can not" trade. Won't trade. Trade is for the weak.
    He poisoned his own peoples water supply.
    He is willing to bring in huge amounts of water from Mulgore. Why not food?

    For all the talk of needing resources, theres very little in lore to suggest Garrosh is actually that interested. He's spending huge amount of resources on war and tidying up the messes he is making.
    Yeah the Alliance also suffered from the Scourge and the Elemental Unrest
    But they were better able to recover because their lands are more "plentiful"

    So the Horde was suffering worse supply situation because Central Kalimdor is not as lush as other areas

    Do you really think that Druidic/shammy power can turn a barren Savannah or rocky desert into a lush jungle?
    Shammys were having trouble because the Elements were going crazy
    Druids tried to do such things in the Wailing Caverns, but it came with nasty consequnces

    Mulgore itself was suffering from the drought in the Shattering.
    If the solution was so simple do you not think Thrall would have done it befor he left?
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-06-10 at 05:18 AM.

  20. #1180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Yeah the Alliance also suffered from the Scourge and the Elemental Unrest

    But they were better able to recover because their lands are more "plentiful"
    Even if that were true...and I'll remind you that the Alliances economic woes were implemented in game while the Hordes, on the whole, were not that doesn't mean Garrosh didn't have other options.

    Trade was an option even if it couldn't be with the Night Elfs.
    Desolace, the Barrens and the Plaguelands shows what druids can do to turn barren land into a paradise.
    Durotar isn't that far from the sea...what could Garrosh have done if he'd built fishing boats instead of a navy?
    He's willing to take the Taurens water and spend huge resources to supply Orgimmar because his actions poisoned the supply there. What if he'd spent those resources shipping food, wood and other supplies?

    Garroshs excuse for war comes down to the simple fact that he wanted war. He was agitating for it ever since the LK. And it didn't take long upon his ascension for that state of affairs to come into being. He didn't need war - he had other options to obtain any resources he needed. But even if he couldn't get them anywhere else, he didn't even try.

    EJL

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