Poll: Is Jaina's new character something you're looking forward to?

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  1. #1181
    I can only ever think of Jaina like this: Jaina Proudmoore.

  2. #1182
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    The Alliance went through just as much, if not more, against the Scourge as the Horde, but they were able to recover because they've spent time improving their supply situation instead of building more tanks and catapults.

    And the biggest rub comes to your last question. If...big IF...Garrosh or any other Horde leader had approached Jaina about interceding on their behalf with the Night elves, they'dve found her receptive, and she'd likely have gone straight to Mal and boom bam bling, Alliance once again extends the hand of friendship.[COLOR="red"]
    The Alliance live in better areas than the Horde, and are able to recover more effectivally
    Not because they spent time "improving ther supplies"
    Are you suggesting that the Horde under Thrall did nothing but build war machines?

    Do you really think the Night Elves would open trade routes?
    In the Shattering they were very relucatant to even meet with Hamuel.
    How do you think they would feel after their Druids were murdered by "Horde" troops

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-10 at 05:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Even if that were true...and I'll remind you that the Alliances economic woes were implemented in game while the Hordes, on the whole, were not that doesn't mean Garrosh didn't have other options.

    Trade was an option even if it couldn't be with the Night Elfs.
    Desolace, the Barrens and the Plaguelands shows what druids can do to turn barren land into a paradise.
    Durotar isn't that far from the sea...what could Garrosh have done if he'd built fishing boats instead of a navy?
    He's willing to take the Taurens water and spend huge resources to supply Orgimmar because his actions poisoned the supply there. What if he'd spent those resources shipping food, wood and other supplies?

    Garroshs excuse for war comes down to the simple fact that he wanted war. He was agitating for it ever since the LK. And it didn't take long upon his ascension for that state of affairs to come into being. He didn't need war - he had other options to obtain any resources he needed. But even if he couldn't get them anywhere else, he didn't even try.

    EJL
    Desolace was not because of the Druids
    The Cataclysm created a giant fissure that allowed water to reach the center of the land
    The Plaugelands were not "barren" like the Barrens and Durotar, they were just Plauged

    Well why is there no blame on Thrall for not doing any of those "easy" solutions
    The Orcs econmoic situation was fine and dandy until the Elemental Unrest
    All these situations seem to be very risky and need a long time to develop results
    Garrosh was itching for war
    But there is a reason why there is wipe-spread suppoirt for the war
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-06-10 at 05:25 AM.

  3. #1183
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Desolace was not because of the Druids
    The Cataclysm created a giant fissure that allowed water to reach the center of the land
    Since when has an influx of seawater been a good thing for plant life?

    If that was the reason, you'd expect Thousand Needles to be a jungle as well. I'm pretty sure the trees in Desolace were grown by the druids, not by a canyon full of salt water.

  4. #1184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It was a nice speech. It wasn't a declaration of war. Did Varian or thrall move armies around to fight each other? No. Was there ever any mention of a war in any source? No. Any quests? No. Any conflict that can be tied back to this "declaration"? No.
    Yes to every question. Grizzly Hills and Icecrown showcases it (which happens after Wrathgate and Undercity, lorewise) and the indication of a territorial treaty in the Shattering novel points to it.

  5. #1185
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    Since when has an influx of seawater been a good thing for plant life?

    If that was the reason, you'd expect Thousand Needles to be a jungle as well. I'm pretty sure the trees in Desolace were grown by the druids, not by a canyon full of salt water.
    May not make sense but I believe that's what Blizard cited as being the source of the regrowth there, with the druids coming in later to nurture it.

  6. #1186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    It was a nice speech. It wasn't a declaration of war. Did Varian or thrall move armies around to fight each other? No. Was there ever any mention of a war in any source?
    Actually...

    Orgrimmar Champion says: This isn't honorable combat. I long to face my opponents in battle with my axe in hand!
    Orgrimmar Champion says: These are my enemies. YOU would be my enemy in battle! Your king has declared war on my kind!

    I have no idea why you deny this so vehemently. Yeah, it was smoothed over after the Northrend conflict... but it doesn't wash out the fact that Varian's bitchfit happened, and one side at least took it as war. If it wasn't obvious enough already.

  7. #1187
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Actually...

    Orgrimmar Champion says: This isn't honorable combat. I long to face my opponents in battle with my axe in hand!
    Orgrimmar Champion says: These are my enemies. YOU would be my enemy in battle! Your king has declared war on my kind!

    I have no idea why you deny this so vehemently. Yeah, it was smoothed over after the Northrend conflict... but it doesn't wash out the fact that Varian's bitchfit happened, and one side at least took it as war. If it wasn't obvious enough already.

    And this is why I don't get why Garrosh fans are so dead set on deflecting blame off of him and onto others. Pretty sure everyone here knows that I'm a Varian fan all the way, and even I admit that he's far from perfect and he caused the small war during Wrath. I don't try and pass on blame because skirmishes always happen, but what he said in UC is a clear declaration of war.

    But Garrosh fans are deadset on trying to reasoning out his actions to the point that he seems like an innocent victim of circumstance. The orcs have had 10+ years to try and change Durotar into a more liveable place. Yet all they seem interested in running into Ashenvale and provoking the Night Elves. Even after the fact while he's supposedly invading to help his people, why are his quartermasters still resorting to stealing food from their own allies to feed their soldiers?

    Instead of making things better for his people this war he started has made things worse, and yet they still insist that it's not entirely his fault.
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  8. #1188
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanEX View Post
    And this is why I don't get why Garrosh fans are so dead set on deflecting blame off of him and onto others. Pretty sure everyone here knows that I'm a Varian fan all the way, and even I admit that he's far from perfect and he caused the small war during Wrath. I don't try and pass on blame because skirmishes always happen, but what he said in UC is a clear declaration of war.

    But Garrosh fans are deadset on trying to reasoning out his actions to the point that he seems like an innocent victim of circumstance. The orcs have had 10+ years to try and change Durotar into a more liveable place. Yet all they seem interested in running into Ashenvale and provoking the Night Elves. Even after the fact while he's supposedly invading to help his people, why are his quartermasters still resorting to stealing food from their own allies to feed their soldiers?

    Instead of making things better for his people this war he started has made things worse, and yet they still insist that it's not entirely his fault.
    I'm not a garrosh fan. I hate garrosh. I hate orcs even though I'm horde (undead, I'd love for the undead to get their own faction).

    when allies are attacking garrosh I flag myself for PvP than I enter the throne room and keep emoting towards alliance priests hoping they'll understand what I am asking them.

    my objective is to get them to MC me so as I can help them killing garrosh. unfortunately they never understand (usually the alliance raid group just kills me )

    anyway.

    I hate garrosh and I am sure as hell I'll enjoy beating the crap out of him on MoP, but varian declared war on the horde, not the other way around. that's what we're defending here (because talen doesn't agree varian declared war on the horde).
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  9. #1189
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    I hate garrosh and I am sure as hell I'll enjoy beating the crap out of him on MoP, but varian declared war on the horde, not the other way around. that's what we're defending here (because talen doesn't agree varian declared war on the horde).
    It goes both ways; they both started very formal conflicts, but only Garrosh's really stuck. Varian's little war declaration was smoothed over by the end of Wrath, when he and Thrall signed an uneasy truce. Thrall hands the reins over to Garrosh, who promptly says "fuck it" to said truce and invades Ashenvale, officially starting the war as we see it... and leading to Theramore coming to the night elves' relief. That's how the canon timeline (which has been retconned a bit) has things going down.

    The difference being, Varian was able to compose himself and try for peace again despite declaring a very formal war on the Horde. Conversely, Garrosh, in typical style, took the war up to eleven.

    In other words: The current war is officially on Garrosh's head. There was a truce in place, however fragile, and he disregarded it by invading Ashenvale. The conflict preceding it, however short, was officially on Varian's head. Regardless of whether he had good reasons or not, pretending it didn't happen is just dumb when we have ample (and, well, obvious) evidence to the contrary.
    Last edited by Zaelsino; 2012-06-10 at 02:51 PM.

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    It goes both ways; they both started very formal conflicts, but only Garrosh's really stuck. Varian's little war declaration was smoothed over by the end of Wrath, when he and Thrall signed an uneasy truce. Thrall hands the reins over to Garrosh, who promptly says "fuck it" to said truce and invades Ashenvale, officially starting the war as we see it... and leading to Theramore coming to the night elves' relief. That's how the canon timeline (which has been retconned a bit) has things going down.

    The difference being, Varian was able to compose himself and try for peace again despite declaring a very formal war on the Horde. Conversely, Garrosh, in typical style, took the war up to eleven.
    still, to sign a truce they had to be at war. according to wikipedia:

    "A ceasefire (or truce) is a temporary stoppage of a war in which each side agrees with the other to suspend aggressive actions."

    which means this war we have now is the same war varian started. as a garrosh hater, I won't take the guilt from him. cairne could have turned that truce into peace, but garrosh is just an unexperienced version of grom (with more muscle and less hair), so of course he had to go and ruin everything.

    still, that doesn't change the fact that varian started it. he may have half-assedly tried to halt midway, but he was the one who started it.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    still, to sign a truce they had to be at war. according to wikipedia:

    "A ceasefire (or truce) is a temporary stoppage of a war in which each side agrees with the other to suspend aggressive actions."

    which means this war we have now is the same war varian started. as a garrosh hater, I won't take the guilt from him. cairne could have turned that truce into peace, but garrosh is just an unexperienced version of grom (with more muscle and less hair), so of course he had to go and ruin everything.

    still, that doesn't change the fact that varian started it. he may have half-assedly tried to halt midway, but he was the one who started it.
    That is what a truce is...however.

    What they signed was a peace TREATY.

    And a treaty is a...an agreement which formally ends a state of war between two hostile parties. So said war was officially over.

    Proof of this is mentioned during the Cathedral scene in the Shattering when the sentinels come in to report the details of the skinning of the convoy guards with the words "the treaty has been violated".

    It is possible that the Alliance might have eventually struck the first blow. but the Cataclysm distracted them from the Horde situation as the went about trying to deal with the way it affected their lands. And while they were busy dealing with their own problems Garrosh formally shit on the treaty by personally leading an Ashenvale campaign.
    Last edited by RyanEX; 2012-06-10 at 03:17 PM.
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  12. #1192
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    How did he start it? Remember the Quest: "Reports from the field" in Vengeance Landing?

    Our mission in Northrend is to destroy Arthas. The Alliance are but an obstacle that we'll crush wherever we find them.

    We've managed to destroy their easternmost fleet; but the survivors have barricaded themselves on the Derelict Strand, south of here.

    Our forces should've overwhelmed their make-shift defenses long ago, but we underestimated their will to live. Seek my officers in the field, Dark Ranger Lyana and Deathstalker Razael and get them to report on the situation.
    So the Horde can invade Ashenvale and that does not start a war. The Horde can attack Alliance Fleets in Northrend and that does not start a war. The Horde can use the plague-bomb on an Alliance Expedition at the Wrathgate and that does not start a war (because that was a splinter faction that just looked like Horde and talked like Horde and used a Horde-developed Weapon but in no way ever was considered part of the Horde because Horde are the good guys).
    But when a Human king says: "Eff you!" after seeing the experiments the Horde performed on Alliance soldiers then he started a war. Because words are nasty and stuff and the Horde just wanted to play and the Alliance are just meanies and spoilsports (Triple Exclamation Mark).

  13. #1193
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    That's kind of exactly what Varian cited when he officially declared war on the Horde. All of these backstabbings happened while the factions were supposedly at "peace" -- Varian had enough, and made "battle" official.

    I didn't say he wasn't justified.

  14. #1194
    Just want to point this out.

    The Horde and the Alliance have been at war since Admiral Proudmoore attacked the Horde. Admiral Proudmoore was the king of Kul'tiras but he was also the Grand Admiral of the Alliance.

    Basically after this ended with Admiral Proudmoore's defeat and death the Alliance and Horde have been in a "cold war." You can even look at it as North Korea and South Korea technically only had a hold fire treaty. The Korean war never has technically ended.

  15. #1195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    That's kind of exactly what Varian cited when he officially declared war on the Horde. All of these backstabbings happened while the factions were supposedly at "peace" -- Varian had enough, and made "battle" official.

    I didn't say he wasn't justified.
    So when did WW2 start for the US? When their Fleet in Pearl Habor was attacked or when they exchanged the angry "No U!"-Letters with Japan?

  16. #1196
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wopotter View Post
    So when did WW2 start for the US? When their Fleet in Pearl Habor was attacked or when they exchanged the angry "No U!"-Letters with Japan?
    Faulty comparison (that's being kind) aside, it's irrelevant. The Horde and Alliance have been in a state of cold war since vanilla, and these skirmishes have been present since day one. It wasn't escalated to "official war" until Varian directly assaulted and tried to kill the leader of the Horde, and made his "disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves" manifesto crystal clear for the world to see. That is treated in-verse as the point of clear reference for straight up faction war. None of what you cited is.

    It's that simple, whether you think it's fair or not. I can definitely see where Varian's coming from, personally. He has a very legitimate gripe with the Horde, and was fairly justified in making the unofficial official. But make no mistake: kicking it into full throttle was on his head, right until he retracted it and signed a truce with Thrall.

    On another note, what John Doe the Forsaken says and does is not equal in weight and consequence to what Varian Wrynn the military leader of the Alliance says and does.
    Last edited by Zaelsino; 2012-06-10 at 06:05 PM.

  17. #1197
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Faulty comparison (that's being kind) aside, it's irrelevant. The Horde and Alliance have been in a state of cold war since vanilla, and these skirmishes have been present since day one. It wasn't escalated to "official war" until Varian directly assaulted and tried to kill the leader of the Horde, and made his "disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves" manifesto crystal clear for the world to see. That is treated in-verse as the point of clear reference for straight up faction war. None of what you cited is.

    It's that simple, whether you think it's fair or not.

    Also, what John Doe the Forsaken says and does is not equal in weight and consequence to what Varian Wrynn the military leader of the Alliance says and does.
    Interesting worldview. So as long as only your underlings attack and no official ever receives anything like a declaration of war you are not at war. So if you kill off the enemy leadership in the first strike you will never get the letter (since they have no time to write it) and it will never be a war - you can invade anything you want, kill anyone you like and it will not count as war. Why did no country in the real world ever think of that? It is all so obvious!

    And the Cold war was a "cold war" because the Commies and the US fought by proxy - they never engaged each other directly. Horde and Alliance on the other hand do fight each other directly - thus it is a real war, not a cold one.

  18. #1198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wopotter View Post
    And the Cold war was a "cold war" because the Commies and the US fought by proxy - they never engaged each other directly. Horde and Alliance on the other hand do fight each other directly - thus it is a real war, not a cold one.
    Not true, it has always been by proxy, there isn't any "Horde vs Alliance" battleground. This is factual lore, like Zaelsino said.

  19. #1199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Not true, it has always been by proxy, there isn't any "Horde vs Alliance" battleground. This is factual lore, like Zaelsino said.
    See a couple of posts above. The attack on the Stormwind Fleet at Vengeance Landing is prior to the Battle of Undercity and by Horde Forces on Alliance forces. No proxy.

  20. #1200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah but after they are done with that I honestly did not expect Cenarius to play nice with the Orcs, not after all what they did to his beloved land, I just find it odd, but blizzard decided he would be fine doing nothing, even tough it is strange given his personality from wc3.
    your right, it does not make sence, not at all, i mean Malfurion is druid, and when the hordes are still burning and rapeing ashenvale, he and Cenarius is like. Oh ragnarus died, time to stand and do nothing. He did not help in wolfheart for he was busy with the alliance leaders, but what now, the war aginst Ragnarus and DeathWing is done, thrall got all the glory while he stands and look at a tree in a fireland.
    That is something i really hope for ingame, that he will do something, or atleast in a book

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