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  1. #1
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    Question What makes a boss "fun" to tank?

    During my time with the beta, one of the things I’ve really been looking to find out is just how much fun tanking is going to be come the expansion. We were sold the idea that “threat wasn’t fun” and that “contributing DPS wasn’t fun”; hell, even the idea of “using cooldowns wasn’t fun” was indirectly insinuated.

    Yet, the shining light was on the horizon – active mitigation.

    Rather than worrying about threat or damage, tanks across the world are about to take an active interest in the buttons they push because they will have a direct impact on the amount of damage they take.

    Except… Not really. In fact, my testing highlights that warriors have actually become more passive in the role than they are now, and the experience is decidedly boring compared to live. But let’s stick a pin in that.

    My question is what makes a boss fun to tank?

    I can accept that tanking is dishwater dull at the moment because I can accept that Blizzard balances around raid encounters and we’ve yet to see any. Thinking back, my favourite encounters were all ones that relied on threat output and careful positioning. I enjoyed the positional aspect of Netherspite and threat was always a push during that period of the game, while phase one of Malygos will ever be a favourite of mine because of the DPS riding you and the positioning of the boss to get sparks central.

    I thoroughly enjoyed Sartharion for similar reasons, as careful positioning and a high DPS output was required as soon as you moved onto keeping two drakes (and beyond) up. Moving into Ulduar, Hodir was a boss I loved tanking for very much the same reasons – high threat required, as well as positioning that avoided falling ice and kept melee in the haste spotlight.

    In Cataclysm, I enjoyed tanking Halfus Wyrmbreaker on heroic as well as Cho’gall (picked up adds), Maloriak (off tank) and Ryolith (because of the way I tanked it).

    There’s a pattern here. If it was a fight where I was pushed on threat and had to be very mobile for good positioning, it was a fight I enjoyed.

    What worries me, is that these type of fights practically died a death in Dragon Soul and I’m worried that’s going to be the norm come the next expansion. If we’re being sold on the idea that active mitigation is THE interest in tanking, then I’m afraid I just won’t be doing it. Standing still with a boss stuck to me while getting Shield Block/Barrier up is, I’m afraid, just not exciting me at all.

    So what about you guys? What bosses have you enjoyed tanking? Were there any you specifically disliked? What do you think made you like/dislike encounters?

  2. #2
    I really wouldn't worry about something that died in Dragon Soul. That raid, in general, was a massive let down AND a mistake as a 'end of expansion' raid. Take it with a grain of salt.

    I really enjoy tanking things that have a sense of panic about them, or something that involves a lot of movement/positioning. Especially with a fight like, say.. Razorscale, Ulduar. I really like tanking that one fight in H Shadowfang Keep, with the big guard guy.. can't remember his name, because you have to keep moving.
    I really don't like those fights where you seriously just sit there and hit your aggro buttons over and over.. so boring. :/

  3. #3
    The boss I liked most in this expansion probably has to be Alysrazor HC pre nerf, when still a bit undergeared. It was such a race to kill the bird in time in addition to a fight where there was a lot to avoid (since dps was a lot lower then it is now when you farm it there was a lot more brushfire for example). Just knowing you had to play near perfect with your damadge rotation, while grabbing worms at the right times to avoid the bird from ever enraging if you did it right, to avoiding everything propperly to it actually being dangerous and cd's being needed if it enraged.

    Most of this got taken away when I geared up a little, and almost completely taken away when the fight got nerfed. Because you didn't have to worry about your damadge on the bird anymore really. Still an enjoyable fight that way but not the great fight it was when killing the bird in time was on the edge. It became more fun again when I sarted solo tanking it, but even killing 2 birds in DS gear is way eassier then killing 1 was in a mix of t11 gear and FL normal gear pre nerf.

    Other fights I enjoyed this expansion: Nef HC (add tank), Beth HC, Rag HC, Blackhorn HC and Spine HC. As you can see I mainly like bosses that have a lot of positional stuff (standing in 1 spot the whole time is boring) to them and/or add kiting that is actually dangerous when first progressing. In my opinion as a tank bosses need to hit hard and be dangerous for it to be really fun. No matter how fun the fight in itself is, if you never have to use cd's because you won't die without them it gets a bit dull

  4. #4
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    I’m encouraged by the fact both of you guys seem to enjoy the same type of encounters as I do – high output, high positional requirements. While I didn’t mention them in the OP, I thoroughly enjoyed Razorscale, Alysrazor, Nefarian and Blackhorn for the same reasons you mention.

    I sincerely hope these types of fights won’t take a back seat for the damp squib of “active mitigation” which (being brutally honest) is a huge step back in enjoyment for me.

  5. #5
    You know, I think you might be on to something, OP. That it was the design of the raid encounters and what tanks were asked to do, is what made tanking fun. Looking back at the Cataclysm raids, I can list some encounters that I really enjoyed tanking.

    Tier 11:
    Omnotron Defense System - Moving Arcanotron out of the puddles, moving Toxitron out of the fartgas, moving away from whoever was targeted by Magmatron, watching out for Lightning Conductor on Electron; all positional based mechanics. The shield mechanic that required damage to stop, too, was another mechanic I liked. Especially as a Blood DK, when timing your Death Strikes was crucial.
    Maloriak - There's a bit of positional stuff in P1, but the real meat of it comes in P2. Suddenly you're strafing out of Magma Jets, making sure you don't hit the raid at the same time, and watching out for Frost Bombs as well. Very active and engaging encounter.
    Nefarian - Nefarian was an incredibly demanding fight for the tanks, and it was amazing. Ony tank had to turn her at the right time so she wouldn't spray the raid with lightning. Phase 2 was complete and utter chaos. Pink fire everywhere, offtank kiting adds and trying to maneuver around the fire, Nef tank slowly rotating Nef... Really really fun fight.
    Halfus - This was a bit dependent on what drakes were up that week, but there was still a lot going on that the tanks had to pay attention to. If Fireball Barrage was up, positioning became super super important. Even more so during Furious Roar, because you'd get knocked down.
    Ascendant Council - Probably my favorite fight in Bastion of Twilight. Phase 1 didn't really have too much going on, but Phase 2 and 3 were nuts. Maneuvering around trying to get Grounded or Swirling Winds was fun. The Terrastra tank had to be super careful about the spikes, and the Arion tank had to chase Arion around the entire room. And then Phase 3, when you had to move the Monstrosity out of the puddles. Very fun fight.
    Conclave of Wind - The platform switching was pretty fun, having the tanks swap the two bosses back and forth. Moving Anshal out of the pacifying circles and moving out of the ice patches on Nezir was fun.

    Tier 12:
    Shannox - Shannox was fun, if you were the Riplimb tank. Especially on Heroic. Making sure he got trapped, getting enough distance to reset your stacks, all very fun.
    Alysrazor - Alysrazor was a very different kind of fight for Tanks, where we effectively became dps. That was super fun, and hadn't really been done before, I don't think.
    Baleroc - Baleroc was a fun fight for me, despite it being completely standstill. Being a Blood DK meant that I would get ridiculously huge Death Strike heals and Blood Shields. I also have tanked him on my Druid, though, and that wasn't nearly as fun. So a bit of an oddly specific one, but fun nonetheless.
    Ragnaros - The Phase transitions were fun to tank, especially the 2nd one. Every tank has some form of utility for handling the Sons, be it Stuns or Deathgrips or whatever. And then when the Scions came out, making sure those were picked up and trying to dps down the Sons at the same time.

    Tier 13:
    None. Dragon Soul is dreadfully boring to tank. Most, if not all, fights result in completely immobile standstill tanking. There's no interesting mechanics for tanks to deal with either. Ultraxion had perhaps the most interesting mechanics for tanking, and that's not saying much.

    Tier 11 was hands down my favorite tier to raid this expansion. Tanks were given a lot to do, whether it be kiting, interrupting, or just plain positioning. As the expansion progressed, the tanking requirements became more and more simplified. Firelands had some interesting mechanics on some fights, but the tanks weren't really engaged as much as they were in T11. Alysrazor was fun to tank, but for different reasons. And then we get to T13, where seemingly the raid devs have just given up on engaging the tanks.

    My view might be a bit skewed seeing as I play a Blood DK, which is arguably the most "active" tank currently. I think that's the reason I'm able to put up with the drudgery of Dragon Soul to be honest, because while DS is boring, I still have to pay attention and time my Death Strikes correctly. Even then though, it's still not engaging to me.

    I would hope that they step up the raid design in Mists, because most of T12 and all of T13 were completely awful for tanks. I think the design of the raids, and the role of the tanks in the encounters, is what dictates the fun of tanking, more than anything. They can try this "active mitigation" thing, and that may or may not work out (let's hope it does). But the raid designs need to be engaging if tanks are going to enjoy tanking.

  6. #6
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    I like active tanking. Having to time certain things to make sure I survive, having to balance class mechanics and boss mechanics (which is most easily represented through Blood DK tanking and Blood Shields).

    I want to be able to screw up and die if I lose concentration for a second.

  7. #7
    High Overlord BlackMagicMarkel's Avatar
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    Always been a fan of being the add tank. Maloriak, Cho'gall (thought I was mostly main for that), Nefarian, pretty much anything that let's me tank more than one thing at once. Heroic Spine was... bliss for me.

    As mentioned before, when tanking bosses, tight positional requirements are (usually) fun and challenging. Sadly I cannot speak for any other raid out of Cata, as I didn't raid until it launched.

  8. #8
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    It sounds to me like there is one word to cover the OPs point... challenge.

    Basically ur missing fights which are challenging for tanks and the ones u remember as the most "fun" are the ones which required u to work and get your job right. And when u got it right and the boss died u got the most pleasure from that.

    This is the very thing which all of us look for in boss encounters, not just the tanks. And i agree that the fights r losing their challenge in more ways than the tanks skillcap

  9. #9
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibby View Post
    Tier 13:
    None. Dragon Soul is dreadfully boring to tank. Most, if not all, fights result in completely immobile standstill tanking. There's no interesting mechanics for tanks to deal with either. Ultraxion had perhaps the most interesting mechanics for tanking, and that's not saying much.

    Tier 11 was hands down my favorite tier to raid this expansion. Tanks were given a lot to do, whether it be kiting, interrupting, or just plain positioning. As the expansion progressed, the tanking requirements became more and more simplified. Firelands had some interesting mechanics on some fights, but the tanks weren't really engaged as much as they were in T11. Alysrazor was fun to tank, but for different reasons. And then we get to T13, where seemingly the raid devs have just given up on engaging the tanks.
    Tier 11 was a good tier in many, many ways – in fact, I’d argue it’s up there amongst the best tiers of any expansion, not merely this one. For tanks, particularly ones that liked using their whole plethora of abilities, it was a real joy.

    The only fight I like in T13 is probably Blackhorn, for the reasons already discussed. Otherwise, I’m really worried that DS is the future of raid encounters and, as such, will see me quit raiding entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixuzcc View Post
    I like active tanking. Having to time certain things to make sure I survive, having to balance class mechanics and boss mechanics (which is most easily represented through Blood DK tanking and Blood Shields).

    I want to be able to screw up and die if I lose concentration for a second.
    I see where you’re coming from regarding DK’s, but it’s a source of real frustration if you’re a warrior, paladin or druid; basically, seeing one thing hailed as “the way forward”, then getting absolutely nothing like it as your version is a bit… Galling.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMagicMarkel View Post
    Always been a fan of being the add tank. Maloriak, Cho'gall (thought I was mostly main for that), Nefarian, pretty much anything that let's me tank more than one thing at once. Heroic Spine was... bliss for me.

    As mentioned before, when tanking bosses, tight positional requirements are (usually) fun and challenging. Sadly I cannot speak for any other raid out of Cata, as I didn't raid until it launched.
    I hate heroic Spine because I think it’s generally a skidmark of an encounter, but I’m with you on add-tanking. Be it killing (Maloriak) or kiting (Nefarian), I have looooaaaaaaadddddsss of time for both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    It sounds to me like there is one word to cover the OPs point... challenge.

    Basically ur missing fights which are challenging for tanks and the ones u remember as the most "fun" are the ones which required u to work and get your job right. And when u got it right and the boss died u got the most pleasure from that.

    This is the very thing which all of us look for in boss encounters, not just the tanks. And i agree that the fights r losing their challenge in more ways than the tanks skillcap
    Erm, yeah – not too shabby a summary. I want challenged in the role, and having the rage to Shield Block at the right time just isn’t making the kind of difference to a fight that I want. The tank should be an integral part of the encounter, not merely the person who stands the boss where it should stand and try to mitigate a bit of physical damage.

    As for general “challenge” and skill cap discussions, I feel most healers would disagree with you. In saying that, I do worry that when you make the switch to heroic it’s pretty much always the healers who carry the extra burden.

    They should get a bit of encounter down time, too.

  10. #10
    The chaotic fights are kind of fun. A lot of people mentioned the good things about the t11 and t12 raids.

    The only one that I really like in DS tanking wise is heroic blackhorn. Picking up 2 adds as an onslaught lands and trying to out-threat the mage that went to town on the wrong one can be interesting. The tank swops with the boss and goriana aren;t rocket science but the timing has to be quite precise. Although, as was said above, its really the healers that carry the extra burden quite often.

  11. #11
    They had to dumb down Dragon Soul or all the noobs wouldn't be able to do any of LFR.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by draconisaerius View Post
    They had to dumb down Dragon Soul or all the noobs wouldn't be able to do any of LFR.
    For some time I was thinking this too. If they make a fight innately hard to tank, they can't tune it for LFR. But it's really not truth. If you pick whatever boss you want that was fun to tank, it can be simplified enough for LFR. If they need to, they can remove a mechanic enterily.

    Anyways, adding to the bosses already mentioned, I would add the ones that have the "I'm one going to die" feeling. Baleroc for example. Anyways, Nefarian, Maloriak, Alysrazor, Baleroc were all really good bosses to tank.

    DS was a bit unsatisfying for this. There wasn't an encounter where you as a tank made a difference (I know, spine, but it's no where near as let's say Nef, when the moment you reached phase 3... it was you who made or break or the try). And sincerely, if one role should get more responsability in encounters, that's the tank role. I know a lot of dps that don't want the spotlight on an encounter (and are "forced" because their class excel at the mechanic), were as all tanks picked the role knowing and enjoying the responsability attached to it.
    Last edited by mmoc38db56fadf; 2012-06-11 at 08:02 PM.

  13. #13
    Basically anything is more fun than just "taunt at x stacks".

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by draconisaerius View Post
    They had to dumb down Dragon Soul or all the noobs wouldn't be able to do any of LFR.
    Honestly this is about 99% true.

    If you think of fights in the past that were actually difficult to tank (or even remotely difficult) - let's say Nefarian from tier 11 (or even something like tanking / kiting adds on Maloriak) - there is simply no way a LFR group would ever down Nefarian unless they had 1 amazing tank who had done the fight before and wasn't a complete scrub (not likely). That, or they have to literally dumb down the fight to the point where there simply aren't adds (more likely), but then it doesn't actually help people learn the fight at all since adds play such a major role.

    Also, on a fight like Nefarian you have to organize people to pillars, getting on pillars, interrupting adds, etc... basically this fight is way too complicated for LFR... and since LFR isn't going anywhere in the future, we can expect bosses with easier mechanics for individual players (or else you wipe) in the future (except perhaps for a heroic mode only boss).

    Since tanks fall under this category of "if 1 player screws up, the whole group wipes", you can expect a lot of easy fights to tank in the future... but I guess I am wrong.

    In the end, I agree that fights that have been fun to tank for me personally are fights that require me to pick up multiple mobs (most of the time involving movement) and actually having to think about cooldowns. Guess we will see what MoP holds.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibby View Post
    You know, I think you might be on to something, OP. That it was the design of the raid encounters and what tanks were asked to do, is what made tanking fun. Looking back at the Cataclysm raids, I can list some encounters that I really enjoyed tanking.

    Tier 11:
    Omnotron Defense System - Moving Arcanotron out of the puddles, moving Toxitron out of the fartgas, moving away from whoever was targeted by Magmatron, watching out for Lightning Conductor on Electron; all positional based mechanics. The shield mechanic that required damage to stop, too, was another mechanic I liked. Especially as a Blood DK, when timing your Death Strikes was crucial.
    Maloriak - There's a bit of positional stuff in P1, but the real meat of it comes in P2. Suddenly you're strafing out of Magma Jets, making sure you don't hit the raid at the same time, and watching out for Frost Bombs as well. Very active and engaging encounter.
    Nefarian - Nefarian was an incredibly demanding fight for the tanks, and it was amazing. Ony tank had to turn her at the right time so she wouldn't spray the raid with lightning. Phase 2 was complete and utter chaos. Pink fire everywhere, offtank kiting adds and trying to maneuver around the fire, Nef tank slowly rotating Nef... Really really fun fight.
    Halfus - This was a bit dependent on what drakes were up that week, but there was still a lot going on that the tanks had to pay attention to. If Fireball Barrage was up, positioning became super super important. Even more so during Furious Roar, because you'd get knocked down.
    Ascendant Council - Probably my favorite fight in Bastion of Twilight. Phase 1 didn't really have too much going on, but Phase 2 and 3 were nuts. Maneuvering around trying to get Grounded or Swirling Winds was fun. The Terrastra tank had to be super careful about the spikes, and the Arion tank had to chase Arion around the entire room. And then Phase 3, when you had to move the Monstrosity out of the puddles. Very fun fight.
    Conclave of Wind - The platform switching was pretty fun, having the tanks swap the two bosses back and forth. Moving Anshal out of the pacifying circles and moving out of the ice patches on Nezir was fun.

    Tier 12:
    Shannox - Shannox was fun, if you were the Riplimb tank. Especially on Heroic. Making sure he got trapped, getting enough distance to reset your stacks, all very fun.
    Alysrazor - Alysrazor was a very different kind of fight for Tanks, where we effectively became dps. That was super fun, and hadn't really been done before, I don't think.
    Baleroc - Baleroc was a fun fight for me, despite it being completely standstill. Being a Blood DK meant that I would get ridiculously huge Death Strike heals and Blood Shields. I also have tanked him on my Druid, though, and that wasn't nearly as fun. So a bit of an oddly specific one, but fun nonetheless.
    Ragnaros - The Phase transitions were fun to tank, especially the 2nd one. Every tank has some form of utility for handling the Sons, be it Stuns or Deathgrips or whatever. And then when the Scions came out, making sure those were picked up and trying to dps down the Sons at the same time.

    Tier 13:
    None. Dragon Soul is dreadfully boring to tank. Most, if not all, fights result in completely immobile standstill tanking. There's no interesting mechanics for tanks to deal with either. Ultraxion had perhaps the most interesting mechanics for tanking, and that's not saying much.

    Tier 11 was hands down my favorite tier to raid this expansion. Tanks were given a lot to do, whether it be kiting, interrupting, or just plain positioning. As the expansion progressed, the tanking requirements became more and more simplified. Firelands had some interesting mechanics on some fights, but the tanks weren't really engaged as much as they were in T11. Alysrazor was fun to tank, but for different reasons. And then we get to T13, where seemingly the raid devs have just given up on engaging the tanks.

    My view might be a bit skewed seeing as I play a Blood DK, which is arguably the most "active" tank currently. I think that's the reason I'm able to put up with the drudgery of Dragon Soul to be honest, because while DS is boring, I still have to pay attention and time my Death Strikes correctly. Even then though, it's still not engaging to me.

    I would hope that they step up the raid design in Mists, because most of T12 and all of T13 were completely awful for tanks. I think the design of the raids, and the role of the tanks in the encounters, is what dictates the fun of tanking, more than anything. They can try this "active mitigation" thing, and that may or may not work out (let's hope it does). But the raid designs need to be engaging if tanks are going to enjoy tanking.
    this hands down, i'm a Paladin OS tank, I still enjoyed lots of the tanking over dpsing, but T13 was just ugh don't want to tank..

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoon View Post
    Honestly this is about 99% true.

    If you think of fights in the past that were actually difficult to tank (or even remotely difficult) - let's say Nefarian from tier 11 (or even something like tanking / kiting adds on Maloriak) - there is simply no way a LFR group would ever down Nefarian unless they had 1 amazing tank who had done the fight before and wasn't a complete scrub (not likely). That, or they have to literally dumb down the fight to the point where there simply aren't adds (more likely), but then it doesn't actually help people learn the fight at all since adds play such a major role.

    Also, on a fight like Nefarian you have to organize people to pillars, getting on pillars, interrupting adds, etc... basically this fight is way too complicated for LFR... and since LFR isn't going anywhere in the future, we can expect bosses with easier mechanics for individual players (or else you wipe) in the future (except perhaps for a heroic mode only boss).

    Since tanks fall under this category of "if 1 player screws up, the whole group wipes", you can expect a lot of easy fights to tank in the future... but I guess I am wrong.

    In the end, I agree that fights that have been fun to tank for me personally are fights that require me to pick up multiple mobs (most of the time involving movement) and actually having to think about cooldowns. Guess we will see what MoP holds.
    I want to believe they design the fights for 25 normal (or heroic) and then adjust. For example, for Nef... yes, they would have to dumb down the encounter, but it won't be really terrible. Let's say that: 1) Nef&Onyxia don't enrage each other by proximity (or do it in a very mild manner). 2) Only one add appear (and takes its sweet time casting), there is no lava debuff and the damage for staying on it is fairly low. 3) The skeletons don't get their energy reseted until they die, regardless of fire on them (though if they die on the fire, they rise instantly), and again, don't hit for that much.

    You could practice all the aspects of the fight if you wish (grabbing and positioning both onyxia and nef correctly, jumping fast into the platform and kiting the adds without the fire touching them) and you could have half the raid doing everything rather poorly and still succeed.
    Last edited by mmoc38db56fadf; 2012-06-11 at 09:19 PM.

  17. #17
    i feel a great tank encounter is all about interactivity, when you feel youre doing things that mean something, not just tank and spank.. although i do love competing on tank dps on worldoflogs, i think blizzard is wrong about the "doing damage" part :O

    Fights that i loved as a tank:

    3d Sarth. Being the tank that picks up fire elementals was awesome. players could tank fire eles as dps and healers, but too many would be a wipe, yet tanking them all was really hard, especially if you tanked the drakes as well, all that while picking up whelps as they came up, dodging voidzones, and making sure the drake breath didnt hit anybody while moving from one spot to another.

    Malygos. Most people did it the herpderp way, staying north, with DKs gripping spark in the middle. I did it the right way, just like any decent guide told you to. You had to pay attention to where the sparks where, then circle malygos around the center, so every single spark crosses the center, and dps could dps it right on top of the center with a paladin stun.

    Pre-nerf Heroic alysrazor: DPS mattered as a tank, and the faster you killed your bird, the less chance you had to die, considering there werent enough worms to provide a 100% uptime satiated buff if your dps was not good enough. All that while dodging worm breath, lava brushes, and getting behind the meteors.

    Heroic nef add tanking: A simple task that could easily get out of hand, the tank in p3 had a primordial role, i loved doing that. You had to pop your CD at the right time depending on electrocute and the adds buffs.

    Heroic Thorim: Doing the gaunlet the first time on hardmode was epic.

    As you can see, theyre all encounters that the tank is deeply involved in, i loved them all, i liked patchwerk too because it was a big test of my tank dps, but it had no real mechanic that was amazing. I'm having great hopes for the "Will of the Emperor" fight in MoP, which seems heavily based on incoming adds that need to be slowed/cc/straight up tanked. The fight seems to be a "Final boss" kinda boss, so expect i heroic rag/heroic madness difficulty. Some other raid bosses seems to have interesting abilities lined up for tanks as well...

  18. #18
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Heroic Thorim: Doing the gaunlet the first time on hardmode was epic.
    I'm absolutely ashamed that I forgot that. x_X

  19. #19
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    T11 Maloriak and Neffy were cool due to adds. T12 I liked Baleroc and Shannox and T13 I just love Spine (talking HM's here ofc).

    Basically I'm on the "add wagon". Imo a fight like Spine HM gives me the odd chance to shine, when I kite around 30 adds, keeping them off the raid and surviving ofc.

  20. #20
    It's very simple.

    Any boss that drops something that you want is "fun".

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